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Theme Changer

 Topic: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims

 (Read 7689 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     OP - October 04, 2010, 01:35 AM

    This is very common and I'm sure we've all come across these analogies.  For example...

    If you defend the right of individuals to wear what they want, eg skirts, bikinis etc, then many Muslims will say to you... "Would you like it if your mother or sister wore these things?"

    If you defend the porn industry or the right of nudists and topless models then again they will say the same thing.

    There seems to be a general consensus amongst Muslims that if we wouldn't like something for our own mothers and sisters.... then it should be banned from society for EVERYONE.


    ALSO...

    It’s well known that Muslims are supposed to love Muhammad a LOT.  More than their own mothers infact.

    So to prevent non-Muslims from insulting or even criticising Muhammad, many Muslims will say "How do would you like it if somebody insulted your mother?"

    How would you answer that?  Would you desist from criticising Muhammad because it's apparently worse then insulting someones mother?

    Is that a valid reason to NOT criticise or insult Muhammad?  What if somebody out there loves, say, Hitler more than his mother.  Would this mean that we must all desist from criticising Hitler?





    .
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #1 - October 04, 2010, 01:58 AM

    Tell them this is a free country and women have the freedom to dress anyway they want even if we don't like it. As a free country we also have the right to free speech even if we don't agree with or don't like what the other person says.
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #2 - October 04, 2010, 03:40 AM

    Have you tried saying you don't care if your mother or sister wore a bikini or participated in pornography?

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #3 - October 04, 2010, 04:40 AM

    Quote
    This is very common and I'm sure we've all come across these analogies.  For example...

    If you defend the right of individuals to wear what they want, eg skirts, bikinis etc, then many Muslims will say to you... "Would you like it if your mother or sister wore these things?"

    If you defend the porn industry or the right of nudists and topless models then again they will say the same thing.

    There seems to be a general consensus amongst Muslims that if we wouldn't like something for our own mothers and sisters.... then it should be banned from society for EVERYONE.


    This is a subtle but significant slight of hand because it presupposes that a like and dislike are equal to a prohibition.  The root of this problem is the contest between individuality or atomization and communalism.  Individuality states that every person has the right to do as they wish so long as it doesn't harm another person, and the response to a harm should proportional to the harm.  The question the becomes does  porn or not wearing the hijab harm anyone else?  No of course not.  So it shouldn't be even be a question of "would you care if your mom did X or Y, because her decision over her life outweighs any other superficial capricious desires of others. 

    People do lots of things that we personally don't like, but a person's right to live their life how they choose is more important that hurting some one else's feelings.





    Quote
    ALSO...

    It’s well known that Muslims are supposed to love Muhammad a LOT.  More than their own mothers infact.

    So to prevent non-Muslims from insulting or even criticising Muhammad, many Muslims will say "How do would you like it if somebody insulted your mother?"

    How would you answer that?  Would you desist from criticising Muhammad because it's apparently worse then insulting someones mother?

    Is that a valid reason to NOT criticise or insult Muhammad?  What if somebody out there loves, say, Hitler more than his mother.  Would this mean that we must all desist from criticising Hitler?


    There is a difference between civil conversation and authoritarian demands to be free from criticism. In civil conversation people don't insult other people's mothers that so that a mutual exchange of conversation can happen, in other words "civil conversation".  This doesn't mean that there should be any law against insulting a person's mother, nor should there be any criminal punishment.  You can't constrict freedom of speech because by doing so you create the reasoning to restrict you own freedom of speech. 

    For instance, I love humanism and liberalism.  Should I be allowed to imprison and fine those who critique it or insult it? 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #4 - October 04, 2010, 07:42 AM

    They do have a point.
    If you would get bitter at your mother or sister or daughter doing it, then you do not REALLY think it's GENERALLY ok for women to do it.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #5 - October 04, 2010, 07:53 AM

    My mother looks great in a bikini. I hope I have her figure in 20 years.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #6 - October 04, 2010, 08:34 AM

    This is very common and I'm sure we've all come across these analogies.  For example...

    If you defend the right of individuals to wear what they want, eg skirts, bikinis etc, then many Muslims will say to you... "Would you like it if your mother or sister wore these things?"


    Well yeah, that's because Muhammad himself said these words to some guy. And I have to say, it's a pretty ridiculous argument. Nor would I like my mother or sister to be taken as captives and made into sex slaves. Doesn't mean that it's prohibited in Islam.

    What I find interesting is that it's the female relatives. Why is it not equally bad for one's male relatives to be unchaste, or whatnot? Typical double standard, it's only shameful when the woman does it. For males it's fine.

    Some Muslim guy once asked me this exact same question, saying that Western people are so unchaste, so how would I like that for my female relatives? I couldn't take it seriously.
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #7 - October 04, 2010, 08:44 AM

    My mother looks great in a bikini. I hope I have her figure in 20 years.

    picsorban dance

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #8 - October 04, 2010, 04:58 PM

    They do have a point.
    If you would get bitter at your mother or sister or daughter doing it, then you do not REALLY think it's GENERALLY ok for women to do it.


    That does not mean we should enforce our views on others.
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #9 - October 04, 2010, 05:30 PM

    Nor would I like my mother or sister to be taken as captives and made into sex slaves. Doesn't mean that it's prohibited in Islam.


     Cheesy Awesome  Cheesy

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #10 - October 04, 2010, 06:40 PM

    Would you want your mother or sister to pluck their eye brows? Well do you?Huh?

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #11 - October 05, 2010, 03:15 PM

    Oh don't get me started on that. Iraqis are masters of the game when it comes to the mother and sister analogies. I have always been sick of it. And to be honest, it's very hard to counter their arguments without seriously offending their cultural sensibility and exposing yourself as someone with "no honor" and "no jealousy".
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #12 - October 05, 2010, 06:14 PM

    One thing I never understood about Asian societies is the prevalence of the concepts of shame and honor. This is true especially in the Arab world and Pakistan. But can anyone tell me why is "honor" given such importance in these societies? Huh?

    "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #13 - October 05, 2010, 06:22 PM

    Because men created them to keep their woman in line.
    Because men want to phycologically damage women because they're mentally deranged.
    Because men are jealous creatures.
    Bastards.

    "A good man is so hard to find but a hard man is so good to find"
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #14 - October 05, 2010, 06:33 PM

    Quote
    Because men created them to keep their woman in line.
    Because men want to phycologically damage women because they're mentally deranged.
    Because men are jealous creatures.
    Bastards.


    HEY, stop generalizing!!  finmad

    Maybe there are men like that, but there are others too!

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #15 - October 05, 2010, 06:39 PM

    Have you tried saying you don't care if your mother or sister wore a bikini or participated in pornography?

    Not sure if that was a rhetorical question, but the hell would I!  I may have left Islam but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly oh-so-open-minded.  I still have my own morals and standards.

    I don't really want to focus on what we'd expect for our own family.

    I'd rather focus on the analogy itself and whether they have a point.  Their argument seems to be, if it's not good enough for our mothers/daughters/sisters.... then it should be banned and haram.



    Someone may not want their mother/sister/daughter to be a plumber, or a bus driver.... but that doesn't mean that they should criticise somebody elses mother/sister/daughter who chooses this career.



    .
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #16 - October 05, 2010, 06:46 PM

    Well if you don't want your mother to be a plumber(substitue wearing a bikini) because you think it's immoral, then why wouldn't you criticise others for it?

    Why do you think wearing a bikini is immoral anyway? :/
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #17 - October 05, 2010, 07:05 PM

    Why do you think wearing a bikini is immoral anyway? :/

    I didn't say that, at all.  You're reading too much into my comments and extracting things that I quite simply didn't say.

    On the flip side, I don't think it's immoral for women to wear a hijab... but I personally wouldn't want anyone in my family to wear one.  Whether they do or don't is up to them of course.

    We all have our own preferences don't we?


    .
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #18 - October 05, 2010, 07:08 PM

    Well it's easy to draw that conclusion from this...

    Not sure if that was a rhetorical question, but the hell would I!  I may have left Islam but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly oh-so-open-minded.  I still have my own morals and standards.



    Ok so do you think women wearing a bikini or participating in pornography are immoral?
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #19 - October 05, 2010, 07:27 PM

    I wouldn't say they're anything other than people who wear bikinis and participate in pornos.  Do I have to stamp an adjective upon them?

    .
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #20 - October 05, 2010, 07:30 PM

    What is wrong with bikinis?

    Or bathing suits in general?


    There are millions of women wearing them, and they are quite happy with it.

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #21 - October 05, 2010, 07:35 PM

    What is wrong with bikinis?

    Or bathing suits in general?


    There are millions of women wearing them, and they are quite happy with it.

    Who said there was anything "wrong" with bikinis or bathing suits?  Who said that exactly?

    .
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #22 - October 05, 2010, 07:41 PM

    It was more of a hypthetidcal question because you guys keep discussing it.

    The mother and sister argument is stupid to begin with.

    First if they ask "Do you want your mother or sister participating in a porno?" i would awnser. "Sure, if they want to, but i really would love to see Muhammed in a porno...that would be a real turn on. A gay, mullah porn... awesome."

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #23 - October 06, 2010, 04:05 PM

    I wouldn't say they're anything other than people who wear bikinis and participate in pornos.  Do I have to stamp an adjective upon them?


    Well you said you wouldn't want your mother/sister wearing a bikini/shooting porn becase you still have your 'standards and morals'. Just wondering what those are. Smiley
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #24 - October 06, 2010, 06:05 PM

    My mothers and my sisters lives are their own and I don't control them.  Why do you want to force your mother or sister to do what YOU want them to do, don't they get to decide what is best for themselves?


    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #25 - October 06, 2010, 07:15 PM

    Not sure if that was a rhetorical question, but the hell would I!  I may have left Islam but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly oh-so-open-minded.  I still have my own morals and standards.

    I don't really want to focus on what we'd expect for our own family.

    I'd rather focus on the analogy itself and whether they have a point.  Their argument seems to be, if it's not good enough for our mothers/daughters/sisters.... then it should be banned and haram.



    Someone may not want their mother/sister/daughter to be a plumber, or a bus driver.... but that doesn't mean that they should criticise somebody elses mother/sister/daughter who chooses this career.

    So are you basically saying that doing this or that is immoral for women in general, but you are entitled to criticize only those who are closely related to you?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #26 - October 06, 2010, 07:18 PM

    Tell them that Muhammad was a public figure and that if one's mother goes out in public as well she gets treated the same way.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #27 - October 06, 2010, 10:53 PM

    Well, if someone asks me "do u like this and this to be done by your sister".
    I will respond i really don't care what my sister does with her life if she is above 21 (adult) , sane. She can have a gender change if she wants to i will love her no matter what.
    If he still bashes me i will knock his jaws off, its not him who should judge.
    I kinda find it really weird why religious people judge others, it seems to me that religious people should be less into judging, since they believe in God (whom will ultimately judge a person for his deeds), I still can't see how they are so arrogant to claim judgement  god must be very pissed at them.

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: "Your mother" and "your sister" analogies used by Muslims
     Reply #28 - October 06, 2010, 11:36 PM

    Do you want to have sex with a woman?

    Yes

    Do you want to have sex with your sister?

    No

    The analogy fails

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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