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Theme Changer

 Topic: The edge of space

 (Read 4599 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The edge of space
     OP - October 11, 2010, 10:58 PM

    Do you think space has an edge/limit? If yes/no, why?
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #1 - October 11, 2010, 11:06 PM

    This is one of those things I've always wondered about. I mean, if the universe weren't expanding outward so quickly, could you actually touch the physical edge of space itself?

    But I guess it's not like that. It's probably really weird and counter-intuitive in reality. I guess there would be no space at the edge of physical space for a physical, corporeal limit of space itself to exist.

    ...I read that back to myself and thought I must have had a brain fart. That's what you get for trying to think about these things.
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #2 - October 11, 2010, 11:09 PM

    Let the mathematics do the thinking. Smiley  We primates did not evolve to imagine much beyond our middle world environment.  I'm not dogmatic either way, but physicists seem to think that space itself is expanding. Smiley

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #3 - October 12, 2010, 12:25 AM

    yes, but then the question is, expanding into what?
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #4 - October 12, 2010, 08:30 AM

    dunno, very difficult questions - Os, Nineberry Sojournelemous - lets have your opinions please   parrot

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #5 - October 12, 2010, 09:48 AM

    We don’t even understand the smallest phenomenon yet, nevermind the largest. When we apply our understanding and science on a quantum level, the matter we consist of matters less and less the smaller you go. Objects are no longer objects, solid is no longer solid, particles are no longer particles, atoms no longer atoms. We can’t even photograph things on this level because the mere action of taking a picture disturbs the view, particles of light smash through and rattle around, like someone throwing rocks into calm body of water and breaking a reflection, and so the mirror of what is visible is shattered. Space and time have no measurable effect at this scale. All we are left with is the vague strands of the relationships we take for granted and the useless bag of tools we brought with us to measure them - our half-formed perceptions of ‘reality’ and our irrelevant conceptualisations of the relationships between objects, our clumsy science, and blunt, unwieldy theories. The further down the rabbit hole you go, the more ill-equipped we are to understand the reality presented to us, and we struggle to grasp and document the new laws and principles that govern this strange, sizeless realm. We struggle to keep up, struggle to apply some kind of handle or alphabet or framework of understanding to what we learn. Quantum scientists are lost in an entirely new frontier, with no map or compass, driven by little more than faith and a sense of adventure, to what end even they do not know.

    Who is to say we will not meet similar difficulties in measuring when we reach a larger scale? How do we know some other unmeasurable problems and puzzles wont arise at the edge of space? What if the void of space and time melts away to some other kind of void, some other incompatible dimensions to space and time itself, where matter isnt even welcome? What if everything we know and take for granted disintegrates? You’ve seen the artists renditions of the Ends of the Earth, where ships balance precariously at the edge of world as the ocean beneath them cascades down like a massive final waterfall into the void. This was a real theory once upon a time - the flat Earth theory. I think our knowledge of the cosmos that we have now is as undeveloped as the theory of the Earth we had back then. We thought there was a limit to the world before we knew it was a globe. We think there is a limit to the universe before we know it is something else. Will we ever reach the edge of everything and meet an impassable barrier, or will we pierce through the known into another unknown? Will our humble eyes be able to see it anyway once we get there? Is there an end? Was there ever a beginning? These are probably some of the biggest questions we'll ever ask.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #6 - October 12, 2010, 11:06 AM

    Do you think space has an edge/limit? If yes/no, why?


    No, I don't think it does. If for example we were to take space as being finite it is still possible that it doesn't have a boundary. For example if we were to imagine this universe as the surface of an inflating baloon (which serves as a good analogy since every point in space is rushing away from each other just like in our universe), then the balloon necessarily has no edge - remember it is the surface of the balloon that represents our universe and we are limited to this surface (of course in this analogy our Universe is a 3D equivalent of the 2D surface of the balloon). So if we were to walk around the surface of the balloon we would never reach an edge - we would just come back to our starting point. And if we theoretically were to take a trip into space as far as possible we would never reach an edge - we would just come back to our starting point.

    But what is the balloon expanding into? I think this is can only be philosophical question at the moment since the universe is currently considered to be the boundary of where our laws of science apply.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #7 - October 12, 2010, 11:44 AM

    What abuyunus said Afro
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #8 - October 12, 2010, 12:10 PM

    We don’t even understand the smallest phenomenon yet, nevermind the largest. When we apply our understanding and science on a quantum level, the matter we consist of matters less and less the smaller you go. Objects are no longer objects, solid is no longer solid, particles are no longer particles, atoms no longer atoms. We can’t even photograph things on this level because the mere action of taking a picture disturbs the view, particles of light smash through and rattle around, like someone throwing rocks into calm body of water and breaking a reflection, and so the mirror of what is visible is shattered. Space and time have no measurable effect at this scale. All we are left with is the vague strands of the relationships we take for granted and the useless bag of tools we brought with us to measure them - our half-formed perceptions of ‘reality’ and our irrelevant conceptualisations of the relationships between objects, our clumsy science, and blunt, unwieldy theories. The further down the rabbit hole you go, the more ill-equipped we are to understand the reality presented to us, and we struggle to grasp and document the new laws and principles that govern this strange, sizeless realm. We struggle to keep up, struggle to apply some kind of handle or alphabet or framework of understanding to what we learn. Quantum scientists are lost in an entirely new frontier, with no map or compass, driven by little more than faith and a sense of adventure, to what end even they do not know.

    Who is to say we will not meet similar difficulties in measuring when we reach a larger scale? How do we know some other unmeasurable problems and puzzles wont arise at the edge of space? What if the void of space and time melts away to some other kind of void, some other incompatible dimensions to space and time itself, where matter isnt even welcome? What if everything we know and take for granted disintegrates? You’ve seen the artists renditions of the Ends of the Earth, where ships balance precariously at the edge of world as the ocean beneath them cascades down like a massive final waterfall into the void. This was a real theory once upon a time - the flat Earth theory. I think our knowledge of the cosmos that we have now is as undeveloped as the theory of the Earth we had back then. We thought there was a limit to the world before we knew it was a globe. We think there is a limit to the universe before we know it is something else. Will we ever reach the edge of everything and meet an impassable barrier, or will we pierce through the known into another unknown? Will our humble eyes be able to see it anyway once we get there? Is there an end? Was there ever a beginning? These are probably some of the biggest questions we'll ever ask.


    I would say that physcists do have a good grasp of what's going on - even at the quantum level. The quantum world appears crazy and counterintuitive yes but we still have a good understanding of how things work. for example some of the very crazy and weird consequences of the quantum world were predicted beforehand and later were confirmed by experiment - so even though the quantum world appears completely counterintuitive to the logic we are used to, we are not ignorant of this and we do still have a good understanding of the way it works. In addition it's not that our measuring equipment is not good enough and even that that we are not smart enough to be able to measure things with certainty etc. - uncertainty simply appears to be an inbuilt feature of nature - we can not change this - all we can do is realise this, acknowledge it and use this information to build our knowledge about the quantum world and the way it works - this uncertainty and unpredictability is incorporated in the equations we use to mathematically describe the quantum world and those same equations have been used to shape the modern technological world.

    Of course the nature of the theory itself means that things do not have definite outcomes but can only be discussed in terms of probabilities - but we have developed equations so that we can assign a probabltiy to a certain outcome. In this sense quantum theory is a hugely successful theory and it's predictions agree with experiment to a degree of precision that is unparalelled by any other theory of science. We have a good grasp of what's going on at the quantum level  (although there are still debated issues such as the copenhagen interpretation/quantum measurement problem) - it's just that things due to the nature of the theory itself do not have definite outcomes or appear very wierd or crazy - but we can only say they are wierd or crazy by comparing to everyday logic (but practically speaking of course they are completely 'normal'). Physicsts have come to accept and fully embrace this quantum weirdness but the theory involves concepts so counterintuitve that we often hear physicsts say they do not fully understand the quantum world - indeed even the major pioneer of the theory said that if you are not shocked by it you have not fully understood it. So in summary what I would say is that although we accept that the quantum wrold is copletely counterintuitive and ruled by probabilities rather than ceratin outcomes we still have very good mathematical and scientific description of the way in which it works.

    What we might ask is why does this wierdness exist, so for example how can a particle exist at two places at once or how can a particle 'communicate' instantaneously with its partner particle even though it were on the other side of the universe? But for practical purposes I don't see how that's any different form asking why does a law such as general relativity exist  or even why does an electron exist or why do quarks exist or why does space or time themselves exist. A string theorist might say for example a string can vibrate in a certain way so that's why electron exists - but then where does that string of energy come from or where did the tiny dimesions of space that allow the string to vibrate a certain way come from? I think this is where the line between where science and philosophy becomes blurred.


    Anyway sorry for going off on a tangent, lol.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #9 - October 12, 2010, 12:57 PM

    All I know is that the universe is a beautiful and a complicated place. And that I think we are beautiful beings. Everyday I find something to marval at. I just hope I don't get burned in eternal torment because I miscalculated the truth level of a 7th Century camel salesman's feverish rantings.

    Amin
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #10 - October 12, 2010, 01:13 PM

    you defo gonna burn bro.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #11 - October 12, 2010, 01:14 PM

    I'll be in good company Grin
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #12 - October 12, 2010, 01:14 PM

    you defo gonna burn bro.

     signmuahaha

    ...
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #13 - October 12, 2010, 01:15 PM

    Blackdog, ur siggy is hilarious! Cheesy

    ...
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #14 - October 12, 2010, 01:16 PM

     dance

    Thank you RIBS!
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #15 - October 12, 2010, 01:21 PM


    What is floos ?  Huh?

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #16 - October 12, 2010, 01:44 PM

    Arabic for cash.
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #17 - October 13, 2010, 12:19 AM

    yes, but then the question is, expanding into what?



    This is probably the most confusing aspect of cosmology. Space itself that is expanding. It doesn't make sense to ask "what's it expanding into?" Because space is like the surface of an infinitely stretchy balloon: it can get bigger or smaller, but it doesn't require anything external to itself. See bit.ly/Dww3S (not allowed to post links)


  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #18 - October 13, 2010, 12:25 AM

    Perhaps the first question is whether space exists in and of itself or whether it is just an entity used to describe causal relationships between objects. What is space itself?

    If space is a real ontological entity, then I would agree with abu, any edge is irrational.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #19 - October 13, 2010, 05:51 AM

    I would say that physcists do have a good grasp of what's going on - even at the quantum level. The quantum world appears crazy and counterintuitive yes but we still have a good understanding of how things work.


    They have certainly made progress, but its mostly abstract. Its still baby steps. They have the important work still to do: making the connections with relativity.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #20 - October 13, 2010, 12:27 PM

    i would have to disagree- I think physicists have made massive progress in describing physical reality - but i would agree with you that perhaps the most important or 'ultimate' work i.e. combining quantum mechanics and general relativity into one theorectical framework still seems far off - although in my view it's amazing that we are even at the stage that we can attempt to do this (i.e. string theory, quantum loop gravity).

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #21 - October 16, 2010, 04:07 PM

    I don't think we're actually disagreeing. I know physicists have made progress. I'm not criticising the science of it in any way. I find it fascinating. I'd just reserve saying massive progress for when talking about something like evolution.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #22 - October 16, 2010, 04:14 PM

    @Ishina & Abu Yunus

    Fascinating discourse. You've exceeded my capacity to meaningfully contribute. As I watch from the ringside for bright sparks to fly from your overheated cerebral cortex, keep the convo up and keep it clean. Leave the smut to me
  • Re: The edge of space
     Reply #23 - October 16, 2010, 06:41 PM

    I don't think we're actually disagreeing.


    no, probably not in general. i think physicsts have done an almost magical job in describing physical reality but i think where we might agree is they haven't necessarily discovered why things are the way they are - we just have good scientific and mathematical descriptions on how things work. but i often think that it's not the job of science to ponder over why things are the way they are at the most fundamental level at least (as the pioneer of quantum mechanics, Neils Bohr, often used to say) - this to me often appears beyond the realm of science and lies in the arena of philosophy. For example Newton gave a mathematical description (we now know it to be an approximation) of how gravity quantitatively works but said nothing about the mechanism of how it works. Einstein then came along and gave a mechanism of how it works by showing that matter warps space-time via his theory of general relativity. But no-one can say why something such as general relativity exists in the first place - is this a scientific question or a philosophical one - for the moment at least it appears to be a philosophical one. In the same manner no one can explain the craziness of the quantum world or explain why spacetime itself exists or even why something we consider to be simple like electromagnetism exists - we only have full detailed descriptions of the way in which they work.

    Quote
    I'd just reserve saying massive progress for when talking about something like evolution


    I would have to disagree here - I think the progress made by evolutionary biologists is comparatively small with regards to what has been achieved in theoretical physics - but maybe that's just me  Tongue

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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