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 Topic: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?

 (Read 5375 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     OP - October 12, 2010, 02:51 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4CM7H-Dm0E&feature=sub

    There's probably a thread to this effect somewhere else but, whatever.

    What do you think?
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #1 - October 12, 2010, 04:00 PM

    Theres always 2 sides to a story, neither side is innocent in such matters (or even close in this case) and ofcourse, I can't really have that much sympathy for people occupying someone elses land who get killed for being there..

    Unfortunately it simply begs the question as to what (if any) excuses would be used for both sides actions, if all present ones were removed.
    Something tells me that aslong as the middle east can f*ck with the petro-dollar, there will always be america trying to start a war and aslong as Fringe Islam exists, there will always be bloodshed in the most counter-productive way imaginable....not that I would ever expect logic and thought to be used on either side of that particular coin..
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #2 - October 12, 2010, 04:32 PM

    Most of the terrorism from that source is Muslim against Muslim anyway, and would be (and has been) waged obliviously to any impression we might have had. I don't think we (the western world?) have much significance in it at all. I think we just poked a hornet nest.

    And lets be honest, we might also, sorta, maybe, possibly, perhaps see some teeny, weeny, tiny itty-bitty, link between the teachings of a 6th century terrorist and the terrorism of some of his modern day followers, but that might be another debate entirely.

    One thing is for sure, the victims of terrorism are nearly always, without exception, not to blame. Not even partly.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #3 - October 12, 2010, 05:58 PM

    its an interesting question.

    the latest round of islamic terrorism started from afghanistan during the russian days. the americans and to a lesser extent europeans assisted that. ppl were called to do jihad from all around the world, these islamic fashits were encouraged and called freedom fighters, they were allowed to recruit and raise money all over the western world with the blessings of the west. they were even trained and given weapons. for example stinger missiles.

    but when the russians left afghanistan the ppl there were abandoned. some scholars argue if the west had continued to engage and help the afghanis perhaps they wud not have turned into the islamic fatshits they are now.

    what ever the case maybe these fatshits do present a danger to the world, they are indiscriminate in their murder, they dont even care to save the lives of muslims, arguing that the muredered muslims will go to heaven and we are actually doing them a favor!  (the ingrates.)

    All I know is that the universe is a beautiful & complicated place. I think we are beautiful beings. Everyday I find something to marval at. I just hope I don't get burned in eternal torment because I miscalculated the truth level of a 7th Century camel salesman's feverish rantings. ~ BlackDog
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #4 - October 12, 2010, 11:09 PM

    Yes.

    It's notable that American imperialistic foreign policy also took its toll on South America, and while it's true that there have been militant groups operating there, as well as terrorists like the Cuban plane bombers, the continent doesn't seem to have taken to violence and radicalism in quite the same way that many parts of the Middle East have.

    And it's also true that probably most of the time the victims are Muslims themselves. These radical organisations operate all over the Middle East, be it in north Africa or the Levant. I'm pretty sure this kind of political radicalism would exist regardless of whether or not the West was involved in the region, but it's obviously exacerbated by Western imperialism.
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #5 - October 15, 2010, 06:21 AM

    If the non-Muslim countries weren't supporting Israel, refusing to allow Kashmir to be separated from India and doing other things that the jihadists don't like then a number of jihad attacks like 9-11 or Mumbai probably wouldn't have happened. However, the "Islamist" movement with its overall aim of a war of global conquest to impose sharia on the entire planet would still exist as it is part and parcel of Islam. Furthermore, native non-Muslims in "disputed" territories like Kashmir would still be having their lives made hell by the Muslims. 

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #6 - October 15, 2010, 09:54 AM

    If the non-Muslim countries weren't supporting Israel, refusing to allow Kashmir to be separated from India and doing other things that the jihadists don't like then a number of jihad attacks like 9-11 or Mumbai probably wouldn't have happened. However, the "Islamist" movement with its overall aim of a war of global conquest to impose sharia on the entire planet would still exist as it is part and parcel of Islam. Furthermore, native non-Muslims in "disputed" territories like Kashmir would still be having their lives made hell by the Muslims. 

    You would miserably fail in a Geopolitical history exam, DH.

    All these Islamist political movements are all a very recent phenomenon (all of them started in the latter half of the 20th Century as a reaction to what they perceived - often correctly - as intrusions/invasions of outsiders) and it is BECAUSE of the Western support towards Israel, Mid Eastern dictators/sheikhs and then fighting them later on, making bases in Muslim countries on self-made pretexts ec that these modern Islamist movements (Hamas, Hizb ut Tahrir, Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc) all began as a reaction to these very steps taken by the "Free World" that pushed significant sections of the Muslim populations to becoming politically and religiously pro-active as a reaction!

    Hell many of these Islamist movements were NURTURED by the "Free World" to act as a bulwark against leftist secular nationalist groups in Muslim countries, and then stabbed in the back and left on their own when their use was done!

    Hiding behind the façade of 'democracy, freedom, rights' etc does not acquit the "Free World" (i.e. USA, France, Britain, etc) for the blood they spilled, resources they looted, populations they bombed, and puppet governments they installed! And they have set a bloody precedent for the past MANY centuries.

    Such feats are a militant Islamist's wet dreams because they are not capable of causing such chaos and destruction and subjugation at a massive scale like the "Free World" does it!

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #7 - October 15, 2010, 10:09 AM

    @atheist.pk

    While it's true that Western imperialism has abetted the growth of radical Islamic movements, the fact remains that Islamic radicalism and imperialism are as old as Islam itself.

    Remember that al-Qaeda carried out terrorist operations in India, which itself did not engage in imperialistic ventures in the Islamic world. It's also worth noting that these radical organisations fight against and kill other Muslims in places like Lebanon, Iraq, Algeria, and so on, which could hardly be a response to Western imperialism.
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #8 - October 15, 2010, 11:46 AM

    @atheist.pk

    While it's true that Western imperialism has abetted the growth of radical Islamic movements, the fact remains that Islamic radicalism and imperialism are as old as Islam itself.

    Remember that al-Qaeda carried out terrorist operations in India, which itself did not engage in imperialistic ventures in the Islamic world. It's also worth noting that these radical organisations fight against and kill other Muslims in places like Lebanon, Iraq, Algeria, and so on, which could hardly be a response to Western imperialism.

    India does not have to be involved in other areas to get attention.

    It has had plenty of incidents over the last 2 decades that have pissed off a lot of Islamists. The violence, and human rights violations by Indian troops in Kashmir since the Pakistan-backed jihadist uprising that began in 1989, the televised destruction of centuries old Babari Mosque in Ayodhya by a massive mob of Hindu fundamentalists in 1992, the 2002 Gujarat riots that had a lot of Muslim casualties (rapes, burning alives, killings etc), as well as the rise of Hindu fundamentalism in power throughout the 1990s and 2000s mean that India too has found the sights of Islamists.

    As far as Afghanistan goes, India has always been a backer of the Northern Alliance and have been consistently anti-Taliban since the mid-1990s. They have worked together with the Karzai government very closely, have sent a fair amount of military advisers etc to Afghanistan that have caught the eye of Al-Qaeda and Taliban (thanks to Pakistani ISI insistence).

    As I said, all these Islamist groups came about as a REACTION to outside interference/threats/intimidation. Because their religion allows them to take action by anything perceived as a 'threat' (from apostasy to imperialism), has actually made it easier for the rise of militants and Jihadis as to these people violence is the only way to save themselves and 'their people'!

    None of these groups existed or operated even during the European colonial eras...mainly because of how brutal and malicious European colonial armies were in dealing with rebellions etc. It was after independence when a lot of European-backed dictators and sheikhs took charge that carried on the legacy of violent oppression of dissent, and the backing of Israel of course, that modern day Islamism came about as a REACTION to such events!

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #9 - October 15, 2010, 03:03 PM

    India does not have to be involved in other areas to get attention.

    It has had plenty of incidents over the last 2 decades that have pissed off a lot of Islamists.


    Oh, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would upset the Islamists. If one were to tell them that they shouldn't be allowed to kill apostates, abolish human rights, then it's only right if they decide to blow up a few of your citizens in response.

    Interesting that you mention India and the Kashmir situation, considering that the entire conflict would never have occurred were it not for Islamic expansionism. Likewise, the Taliban itself would not exist were it not for the conquests that the Caliphate made.

    It's notable also that you say that modern Islamic radicalism wouldn't exist were it not for Western imperialism, but if you reason like that, then you surely must concede that the Hindu radicalism in India is a response to Islamic extremism.

    Quote
    As I said, all these Islamist groups came about as a REACTION to outside interference/threats/intimidation. Because their religion allows them to take action by anything perceived as a 'threat' (from apostasy to imperialism), has actually made it easier for the rise of militants and Jihadis as to these people violence is the only way to save themselves and 'their people'!


    I think to deduce that Islamic radicalism is nothing more than a response to outside interference by Western powers is frankly untenable, for reasons which should be obvious from Islamic history.

    But you also mention that the Western nations suppressed rival powers and organisations. Yes. And that is arguably why, after the departure of the imperial powers from these places, leaving a power vacuum, these radical organisations were then able to form once again.

    But these organisations have everything to do with politics pertaining to the Middle East, they are not merely a response to imperialism. Take the Muslim Brotherhood. The entire purpose of the organisation at its founding was to work to re-establish the Caliphate, not to avenge some grievance of the Islamic world.

    Quote
    None of these groups existed or operated even during the European colonial eras...mainly because of how brutal and malicious European colonial armies were in dealing with rebellions etc. It was after independence when a lot of European-backed dictators and sheikhs took charge that carried on the legacy of violent oppression of dissent, and the backing of Israel of course, that modern day Islamism came about as a REACTION to such events!


    Regardless of Western complicity, do you honestly believe that these dictators and organisations in the Middle East would not have come about were it not for the imperialism of the West? Do you think that these places were bulwarks of freedom, democracy and human rights until the West came along and screwed everything up?

    Seems to me that your entire argument is predicated upon a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. You think that since these particular radical organisations formed afterwards, that therefore Western imperialism is entirely to blame for these modern Islamist movements, as though such radicalism were new.
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #10 - October 15, 2010, 04:20 PM

    You forgot Israel as well.  bunny parrot

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #11 - October 15, 2010, 05:15 PM

    So what? I don't give a shit about what the US government did. GET THEM.
    You can't be responsible for something you didn't do. It's a stretch to say that you are responsible for the people who run the country you live in, but there is no way in hell you can be responsible for what tactics their enemies use. Or else it's like saying the Brits are responsible for Mahatma as well.
    Or the Boer were for the British policy of extermination. (yeah, that's right, white people can be exterminated too)


  • Re: Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #12 - October 18, 2010, 01:15 PM

    Quote from: atheist.pk
    All these Islamist political movements are all a very recent phenomenon (all of them started in the latter half of the 20th Century as a reaction to what they perceived - often correctly - as intrusions/invasions of outsiders) and it is BECAUSE of the Western support towards Israel, Mid Eastern dictators/sheikhs and then fighting them later on, making bases in Muslim countries on self-made pretexts ec that these modern Islamist movements (Hamas, Hizb ut Tahrir, Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc) all began as a reaction to these very steps taken by the "Free World" that pushed significant sections of the Muslim populations to becoming politically and religiously pro-active as a reaction!


    So you are basically saying that if the state of Israel had not come into being and India had not sent its soldiers into Kashmir we would not have groups like the Muslim brotherhood, al-qaeda, hizbullah, hizb ut tahrir and the like? The area that is now Israel-Palestine would now be a secular democratic Arabian state. Do I understand you right?

    Quote
    Hell many of these Islamist movements were NURTURED by the "Free World" to act as a bulwark against leftist secular nationalist groups in Muslim countries,


    Certainly the west supported the indigenous Mujahideen and international jihad brigades in Afghanistan against the Soviets. Do you think this was wrong?

    Quote
    Hiding behind the façade of 'democracy, freedom, rights' etc does not acquit the "Free World" (i.e. USA, France, Britain, etc) for the blood they spilled, resources they looted, populations they bombed, and puppet governments they installed!


    Where did they do those things?

    Quote
    And they have set a bloody precedent for the past MANY centuries.


    I don't understand what you are saying here. Please rephrase.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #13 - February 20, 2014, 03:26 AM

    "We" are mostly to blame for it, I'd say.
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #14 - February 20, 2014, 04:08 AM

    The West, the so called American "imperialism", the Hindu "fundamentalists" etc. is in no way responsible for Islamic terrorism. Only one mosque Babri Masjid was ever demolished in the entire history of India, but thousands of Hindu temples have been demolished since the the 8th Century when Muhammd bin Qasem invaded Sindh and killed the Hindu King Daher.

    After the partition of India, the majority of Hindu temples have been demolished in Pakistan and Bangladesh, but people like atheist.pk bellyache about ONLY ONE mosque ever demolished. Amazing!


    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #15 - February 20, 2014, 04:26 AM

    All the "islamic terrorism" America faces is because we've been torturing and killing Middle Easterners for decades for oil, and heavily supporting others who do so on our behalf.  Just read the justifications for 9/11.  Everyone knows this deep down, except for a few deluded paranoid people.  We just want to avoid our guilt.  We don't like the fact that the chickens are coming home to roost, especially since we basically created the modern Islamic fundamentalist terrorist movement.  It's a case of Frankenstein's monster killing Dr. Frankenstein. 
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #16 - February 20, 2014, 12:37 PM

    The waning and waxing of conflict is repeated in history. We create the barbarians at the gate which will eventually cause our downfall. The new society will enjoy a period of prosperity only to create their own barbarians at the gate and repeat the cycle.
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #17 - February 20, 2014, 12:58 PM

    "We" are mostly to blame for it, I'd say.

    Yap   YOU ARE TO BE BLAMED   EzraJT ., 
    but Not me ., din't include me in your  group.,  don't blame me for terrorism, Islamic or otherwise..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #18 - February 20, 2014, 06:02 PM

    Quote
    Yap   YOU ARE TO BE BLAMED   EzraJT .,
    but Not me ., din't include me in your  group.,  don't blame me for terrorism, Islamic or otherwise..


    Well, "we" as in "the West".  "We" have only ourselves to blame.
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #19 - March 10, 2014, 02:26 AM

    I have a very simplistic take on this. If in 40 years time Islam has come to power do you think they would be rectifying the ways of the west through progressive methods or perpetrating the same bloody violent methods to get folk to live in the way they claim to be the right way?

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #20 - March 10, 2014, 06:13 AM

    Good point.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #21 - March 10, 2014, 10:52 AM

    I have always told the Muslims around me that if countries like Saudi Arabia weren't kissing the feet of America and had stood firm in wanting the freedom of Palestine, their chances of success might have increased. But there is a saying in Bangla, "The one with the power has the land." And that is the case with Israel and it has been the rule since the past. The thing is I don't like their actions that harms the innocent Palestinians.
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #22 - March 10, 2014, 12:18 PM

    Things are a wee bit more complex, for example

    Quote
    Recent endorsements in the 21st century have been made by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Sheikh Ekrima Sa'id Sabri, the education ministry of Saudi Arabia,


    Quote
    The Protocols of the Elders of Zion or The Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion is an antisemitic hoax purporting to describe a Jewish plan for global domination.[1] It was first published in Russia in 1903, translated into multiple languages, and disseminated internationally in the early part of the 20th century. Henry Ford funded printing of 500,000 copies that were distributed throughout the US in the 1920s

    Adolf Hitler and the Nazis publicized the text as though it were a valid document, although it had already been exposed as fraudulent. After the Nazi Party came to power in 1933, it ordered the text to be studied in German classrooms. The historian Norman Cohn suggested that Hitler used the Protocols as his primary justification for initiating the Holocaust—his "warrant for genocide".[2].


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #23 - March 10, 2014, 12:40 PM

    I saw this cleric in Egypt going on about it, the silly twat. One has to wonder why it never crosses anyone's mind that, considering it became public knowledge nearly a century ago, if the elders of Zion had not perhaps come up with a new plan? Seems common sense it would be very different by now.

    Though I suppose the fact this never occurs to them just shows how stupid they are for believing it in the first place.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are We Partly to Blame for Islamic terrorism?
     Reply #24 - March 10, 2014, 02:34 PM

    The Muslims believe not only what Moi said, but also that they are out to destroy Islam. Lots of cheek for a silly religion.
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