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Theme Changer

 Topic: "Seek knowledge as far as China"

 (Read 2881 times)
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  • "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     OP - October 14, 2010, 05:14 AM

    This is supposed to be a hadith of Muhammad and has often been used to ridicule his limited grasp of geography. Be that as it may, it cannot be doubted that the sentiment is praiseworthy - knowledge should be searched for everywhere.
    However, the saying also has a different and far more subtle interpretation according to Idries Shah. He argues that many words used by sufis are actually coded technical terms that hide within themselves, using a quite mathematical system of reference, their true meaning.
    He describes this system as the abjad system and the idea is that every arabic letter has an equivalent numerical value. To discover the true meaning of a term you translate the word into it's numerical value and then find the digital root of every unit.
    For instance, the word sufi, is spelt with the letters s = 90, w = 6, f = 80, y = 10. This totals 186. To split this into its digital roots then we are left with 100, 80 and 6 which are the letters Q, F, W. These letters can form the root of many words but the word that is hidden within sufi is the technical term FUQ, which means "above, transcending" - and thus sufism is shown to be the "transcendent philosophy".

    To return to the saying above then we can attempt, with Mr. Shah, a similar decoding attempt. China, in arabic is spelt with the following letters: S = 90, Y = 10, N = 50 which totals 150 and because it has no single unit can only be split into 2 letters, Q and N. This can form the word qann which means to scrutinise or observe with utmost concentration. Thus, this saying now reads as "seek knowledge even unto the depths of meditation."

    According to Idries Shah, this method was widely employed by many sufis to hide their true thoughts from the zealots of their time. Another example is that the term "a thousand and one nights" is actually a coded version of "the prototype record", so that within those persian stories of fantasy and adventure is hidden record of man's own journey into himself.

    I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of people here on this system of coding, and perhaps even the arabic speakers can tell us whether it actually works.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     Reply #1 - October 14, 2010, 06:24 AM

    Sorry to post it here.

    But could you respond to this post of mine? Smiley

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=12480.msg355054#msg355054

    thanks
  • Re: "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     Reply #2 - October 14, 2010, 06:31 AM

    Btw, just asking, are you a Monotheist or a Monist? That is to say do you believe in a God that is in no way similar to anything else and emphatic of this distinction or do you believe that there is an Absolute Oneness, wherein the nature of all things else is somehow related to that of God as well?

    Had to ask because I read your experience on leaving Islam on CEMB site, wherein you said Allah was an anthromorphic deity. That's the thing that was apparent to me when I took a look into the Quran. A mentally unstable, emotional riot that deserves anything but worship.
  • Re: "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     Reply #3 - October 14, 2010, 09:34 AM

    It's numerological bullshit. If you use a convoluted enough system of number/letter coding you can conceal ANY message with a pattern, and conversely you can find any pattern within any message...

    There's an article on WikiIslam showing this in action.
  • Re: "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     Reply #4 - October 14, 2010, 10:02 AM

    It's numerological bullshit. If you use a convoluted enough system of number/letter coding you can conceal ANY message with a pattern, and conversely you can find any pattern within any message...

    There's an article on WikiIslam showing this in action.


    Yes SC, that is the whole point I am somewhat familiar with Sufism, and even now I have a great affinity and admiration of it in fact I recently called my self a Sufi Atheist. Sufi's were and still are under a great deal of pressure from the Islamic fanatics, these Sufis most of them were Deists, agnostics and atheists, they hid their true roots under a system of numerology and poetry if you actually deeply study Sufism by being a Murid of a Murshid or Pir you get a great understanding of Sufism and its true esoteric nature. They actively hid the message. 
  • Re: "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     Reply #5 - October 14, 2010, 10:52 AM

    Merely trying to find method amongst madness.
  • Re: "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     Reply #6 - October 14, 2010, 10:58 AM

    Yes SC, that is the whole point I am somewhat familiar with Sufism, and even now I have a great affinity and admiration of it in fact I recently called my self a Sufi Atheist. Sufi's were and still are under a great deal of pressure from the Islamic fanatics, these Sufis most of them were Deists, agnostics and atheists, they hid their true roots under a system of numerology and poetry if you actually deeply study Sufism by being a Murid of a Murshid or Pir you get a great understanding of Sufism and its true esoteric nature. They actively hid the message. 


    If they actively admit that it's just a man-made system of obsfucation rather than a message that Allah wants us to find, I'm cool with that!
  • Re: "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     Reply #7 - October 14, 2010, 11:00 AM

    It's numerological bullshit. If you use a convoluted enough system of number/letter coding you can conceal ANY message with a pattern, and conversely you can find any pattern within any message...

    There's an article on WikiIslam showing this in action.


    I'm sorry, sc, but I think you have mistaken what this system is about. These are codes that have been created by sufis within their own works to hide their real thoughts, not codes sent down by some deity to be discovered.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     Reply #8 - October 14, 2010, 11:02 AM

    Btw, just asking, are you a Monotheist or a Monist? That is to say do you believe in a God that is in no way similar to anything else and emphatic of this distinction or do you believe that there is an Absolute Oneness, wherein the nature of all things else is somehow related to that of God as well?




    I think this is a difficult question to answer because every general statement at this level is bereft with paradox. It seems to me that there is a transcendent source to all of reality, that this source is both everything and nothing as befits such a paradox.
    I know this is not much of an answer but it is the best I can do using our petty human tools of reasoning. Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     Reply #9 - October 14, 2010, 01:38 PM

    I'm sorry, sc, but I think you have mistaken what this system is about. These are codes that have been created by sufis within their own works to hide their real thoughts, not codes sent down by some deity to be discovered.


    Yeah, I did and KT clarified that. Sorry for being a prick :e
  • Re: "Seek knowledge as far as China"
     Reply #10 - October 15, 2010, 09:33 PM

    No need to apologise, I myself am not particularly fond of the claims of numerology  Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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