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 Topic: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised

 (Read 8565 times)
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  • Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     OP - October 18, 2010, 11:51 AM

    Yup. Use the link to watch the video.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11545519

    Quote
    A BBC Inside Out special follows a highly controversial American charity that wants to pay drug addicts cash to be sterilised

    Drug addicts across the UK are being offered money to be sterilised by an American charity.

    Project Prevention is offering to pay £200 to any drug user in London, Glasgow, Bristol, Leicester and parts of Wales who agrees to be operated on.

    The first person in the UK to accept the cash is drug addict "John" from Leicester who says he "should never be a father".

    The move has been criticised by some drug charities who work with addicts.
    Continue reading the main story

    Project Prevention founder Barbara Harris admitted her methods amounted to "bribery", but said it was the only way to stop babies being physically and mentally damaged by drugs during pregnancy.

    Drug treatment charity Addaction estimates one million children in the UK are living with parents who abuse drugs.

    Pregnant addicts can pass on the dependency to the unborn child, leading to organ and brain damage.

    Mrs Harris set up her charity in North Carolina after adopting the children of a crack addict.
    Damage to children

    Speaking to the BBC's Inside Out programme, she said: "The birth mother of my children obviously dabbled in all drugs and alcohol - she literally had a baby every year for eight years.

    "I get very angry about the damage that drugs do to these children."

    After paying 3,500 addicts across the United States not to have children, she is now visiting parts of the UK blighted by drugs to encourage users to undergo "long-term birth control" for cash.

    John, a 38-year-old addict from Leicester, is the first person in the UK to accept money to have a vasectomy after being involved in drugs since he was 12.
    Continue reading the main story

    Start Quote

    It might work in America but Great Britain is a very different country”
    Maria Cripps
    Dovetail Centre

    He said: "It was something that I'd been thinking about for a long time.

    "I won't be able to support a kid; I can just about manage to support myself."

    Simon Antrobus, chief executive of Addaction, said while no-one wanted to see children brought up in a drug-using environment, there was no place for Project Prevention in the UK.

    "It exploits very vulnerable people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol at probably the lowest point in their lives," he said.

    The Reverend Robert Black, of Victory Outreach, which works with former addicts in east London, said he thought Project Prevention's aims were "very devious".
    Reversible contraception

    Maria Cripps, project manager at the Hackney Dovetail Centre which works with drug users and their carers, said: "I think Barbara uses some very extreme examples to get her point across. It might work in America but Great Britain is a very different country."

    But Reverend Martin Blakebrough, director of Camden's Kaleidoscope Project in north London, said sterilisation was "worth considering" if it was right for the individual.

    A spokesperson at the British Medical Association said: "The BMA's ethics committee does not have a view on the charity Project Prevention.

    "As with all requests for treatment, doctors need to be confident that the individual has the capacity to make the specific decision at the time the decision is required.

    "The BMA's ethics committee also believes that doctors should inform patients of the benefits of reversible contraception so that the patients have more reproductive choices in the future."

  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #1 - October 23, 2010, 02:28 PM

    The lady who organises this was on LBC radio this afternoon, phone call from the US I think. She made a great point among the lines of "Here you are asking me if I have the right to supposedly take advantage of people who are not thinking straight and yet you're still saying these people who can't think straight is fine for them to decide to have children." QED, I think. The stats on kids born with drug addicts for paretns is horrific, she gave many examples. I fully support this cause, as harsh as it sounds. Afro
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #2 - October 23, 2010, 03:50 PM

    There's a lot of people who should never have kids, not just drug-addicts.  Roll Eyes

    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #3 - October 23, 2010, 03:57 PM

    The lady who organises this was on LBC radio this afternoon, phone call from the US I think. She made a great point among the lines of "Here you are asking me if I have the right to supposedly take advantage of people who are not thinking straight and yet you're still saying these people who can't think straight is fine for them to decide to have children." QED, I think. The stats on kids born with drug addicts for paretns is horrific, she gave many examples. I fully support this cause, as harsh as it sounds. Afro


    Supporting eugenics. I'm shocked.  Roll Eyes

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #4 - October 23, 2010, 04:35 PM

    This is fucking disgusting. Its wide open to abuse.

    Quote
    "It exploits very vulnerable people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol at probably the lowest point in their lives,"


    Yeah that ^

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #5 - October 23, 2010, 04:46 PM

    While we're at it let's ensure all chavs can't reproduce either (sorry Liverpool). I mean the stats are pretty bad for kids born in poor areas.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #6 - October 23, 2010, 04:49 PM

    Why don't these people mind their own business?   The UK already has universal free health care, (unlike  their own country), drug addicts can already get sterilised any time they like.  They don't need busybodies from the US telling them to do it, these people should go home and sort out some of the many problems that afflict America.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #7 - October 23, 2010, 07:53 PM

    There are plenty of people in this world who should not be having children....offering the removal of that ability from a drug addict isn't exactly the worst approach i've ever heard..
    I support the Idea, however, this offer should also be offered to much of the rest of society aswell.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #8 - October 23, 2010, 09:49 PM

    Why don't these people mind their own business?   The UK already has universal free health care, (unlike  their own country), drug addicts can already get sterilised any time they like.  They don't need busybodies from the US telling them to do it, these people should go home and sort out some of the many problems that afflict America.


    I was thinking it is a specialized cause who understands this problem and is passionate about it and wants to do something about it and this going transatlantic as much as the next charity/business/TV show in order to penetrate a foreign market. Pockets of specialization internationalizing in a global community, nothing wrong there. We may have NHS but drug addicts don't have the incentive, this charity raises the awareness necessary and an incentive to get them to think about it.

    While we're at it let's ensure all chavs can't reproduce either (sorry Liverpool). I mean the stats are pretty bad for kids born in poor areas.


    Which is why there has been a correlation in the US between abortion legalization and crime reduction (gene pools of unwanted kids who never grew up because they got aborted before they lived a life of social destitution and no father).

    Quote
    "It exploits very vulnerable people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol at probably the lowest point in their lives,"

    Yeah that ^



    So it is okay for these vulnerable people to be allowed to have kids with the likelihood of passing them organ and brain damage let alone proper care children need?
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #9 - October 23, 2010, 09:53 PM

    Quote
    Which is why there has been a correlation in the US between abortion legalization and crime reduction (gene pools of unwanted kids who never grew up because they got aborted before they lived a life of social destitution and no father).

    Wow, I don't know which is worse: this or the Taylor swift post in the DJ Booth thread.

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #10 - October 23, 2010, 09:55 PM

    Supporting eugenics. I'm shocked.  Roll Eyes


    Came across this blog post a while back ... bananas ... who would have thought eh?
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #11 - October 23, 2010, 10:02 PM

    So it is okay for these vulnerable people to be allowed to have kids with the likelihood of passing them organ and brain damage let alone proper care children need?


    Yes, you morally-repugnant authoritarian statist.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #12 - October 23, 2010, 10:44 PM

    Calm down Q, it's just a discussion, where people learn from each other. Having opposite views gives both people a chance of perceptive.  Smiley

    Please elaborate why adults with the likelihood of inflicting organ/brain damage to their kids is acceptable.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #13 - October 23, 2010, 10:51 PM

    Elaborate on a statement I never made and never would make? Don't think so, kid.

    As usual you fail to understand the difference between something being morally acceptable and legally permissible because your morally-bankrupt ideology gives too much power to the state to control people's lives.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #14 - October 23, 2010, 10:59 PM

    No problem, I'll wait for Ishina's thoughts.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #15 - October 24, 2010, 11:38 AM

    So it is okay for these vulnerable people to be allowed to have kids with the likelihood of passing them organ and brain damage let alone proper care children need?


    Yes, vulnerable people. Addicts are not monsters. They are people, just like you and I, who made bad choices. People get clean. People change. You’re describing mothers and fathers of people I know and love. You’re describing close friends of mine, now happy and with a family, with beautiful healthy kids, who at their darkest hour might have very well taken this offer just for the money.

    People can get sterilised anyway. But £200 is coercion. £200 is a lot of drugs. Drug addicts need help, not permanently sterilising and given money to by more drugs. Instead of a quick-fix slap-patch that solves none of the problems it proclaims to, why not invest that money in longer term solutions? Rehab? Counselling? Love and care? Y’know, the actual help they need?

    And honestly, hawking the idea around in leaflets? This has zero class at all and reeks of Nazi bastards.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #16 - October 24, 2010, 12:40 PM

    I think this is a great idea; not quite eugenics, more like market-driven natural selection. It's great that people with excess capital should be able to dabble invest in social / biological architecture as a hobby philanthropic enterprise. In fact, we should probably extend the scheme to disabled people to ensure they don't inflict their horrible deficiencies on poor defenseless children, and religious brown people to prevent them altering our demographics moving forward. We could also virtually eradicate benefit dependency in future generations, which is a really excellent return on investment when one thinks about it.

    £200 is a lot of drugs.

    Depends. Some of the city workers I know could probably do that in a day. Then again, they're economically active so we wouldn't want to dissuade them from breeding. Wink

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #17 - October 24, 2010, 12:56 PM

    Hey Ishina,

    Fair point indeed. I think there is a big difference between an addict who can change and an addict beyond the point of caring for a child. Such addicts different to your friends. I'm all for prevention, high success rate in that here in the UK. But what this charity is doing caters for is the more extreme offenders.

    From my understanding this charity helps with long term birth control as well as sterilizing those addicts who know they aren't going to able to care for or keep a child (and who've already had children if they are women).

    I understand the issue of coercion, and from what I've read it doesn't look like this charity is just giving money away here left right and centre - it is to the tier 1 top offenders who've already had children and aren't acting responsibly.

    Some of the coercion issues as well as a variety of points are answered by Barbra Harris here, it's 25 min but worth the watch:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sj25f/HARDtalk_Barbara_Harris_founder_Project_Prevention/
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #18 - October 24, 2010, 12:58 PM

    I think this is a great idea; not quite eugenics, more like market-driven natural selection. It's great that people with excess capital should be able to dabble invest in social / biological architecture as a hobby philanthropic enterprise. In fact, we should probably extend the scheme to disabled people to ensure they don't inflict their horrible deficiencies on poor defenseless children, and religious brown people to prevent them altering our demographics moving forward. We could also virtually eradicate benefit dependency in future generations, which is a really excellent return on investment when one thinks about it.

    Excellent post, thinkfree. I agree with you  Afro













    /HighOctane  Tongue

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #19 - October 24, 2010, 06:25 PM

    Ah, make a thread based around a controversial subject and watch the insults fly, and Godwin's law fulfil itself.

    Firstly, no-one is advocating forced sterilisation at all. That's number one.

    Secondly, as I understand it, the addicts have a choice between sterilisation and receiving a contraceptive surgical implant that lasts only a few years, so it's effect is not irrevocable.

    Also, I'd agree that this thing should not be for all and any addicts, but only those who are in no position even to look after themselves, let alone children.

    Someone mentioned disabled people having children. Well, even the disabled are capable of getting help that they need in order to raise children properly if they need it. Having said so, any parent, whether disabled, an addict or neither of these, should only have children if they are actually capable of taking care of them.

    Anyone, even if they are neither an addict or possessing of a disability, should not have children if they are unfit to raise them. Hence why criminal law stipulates that it is possible even to take away people's children if they are guilty of neglect.

    Now, I'm not advocating taking people's children away, I'm simply saying that these things have to be considered.

    Pertaining to drug addicts; the aim is to stop women in particular from having children due to the very high numbers of pregnancies which would result in many children with no possibility of having a proper up-bringing unless they were taken into the custody of others. Given the problems that would necessarily follow from this scenario, it is easy to see that there is in fact some degree of prudence in preventing such irresponsible people from having children.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #20 - October 24, 2010, 06:39 PM

    Horrid idea. Like thinkfree mentioned, what should we extend this incentive to? Disabled people? Alcoholics?  The mentally retarded? Racists? Teenage mothers? Those depressed and suicidal? People who wants kids so they feel loved/other selfish reason? Also, like ishina mentioned, we should not lose sight of the fact that although drug addicts and all the aforementioned unfortunate individuals,  are still human beings and they need help not some hard cash, which will not deter these negative behaviours. Dealing simply with the symptoms doesn't get to the cure of the problem.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #21 - October 24, 2010, 07:32 PM

    From my understanding this charity helps with long term birth control as well as sterilizing those addicts who know they aren't going to able to care for or keep a child (and who've already had children if they are women).

    I understand the issue of coercion, and from what I've read it doesn't look like this charity is just giving money away here left right and centre - it is to the tier 1 top offenders who've already had children and aren't acting responsibly.


    What do you make of this:

    Quote
    Dear Sir,

    I’m writing to make your readers aware of a worrying ‘import’ from America.

    Barbara Harris who calls herself ‘BlessedBarbara’ on the Internet site ‘twitter’ is the right wing, Christian founder of ‘Project Prevention’, a charity from N. Carolina, USA that aims to bring about the sterilisation of substance abusers. Now she wants to set up shop in the UK too. The ‘charity’ achieves its divisive aim by paying these desperate individuals up to £200 to undergo the procedure.

    The stated aim of Project Prevention is to prevent the birth of drug exposed children. The idea appears to be that no life at all is preferable to life gestated by an addict.

    However, the ‘questions and answers’ section of Project Prevention’s website makes it clear that the prevention of social delinquency and violent crime are just as high on the charity’s agenda. It seems that discrimination based upon parental behaviour and denying the right to life of the socially disadvantaged is just as important to Harris.

    Project Prevention runs the ‘CRACK’ project that targets black neighbourhoods in the US. The CRACK project was heavily influenced by Chris Brand, the self confessed ‘scientific racist’ and eugenicist who famously asserted that black people are of limited IQ and that their reproductive choices should be considered seperately from white citizens. Brand was an advisor on the project and has praised it as a major contributor to the eugenic cause.

    It’s a voluntary scheme, began when Barbara Harris failed to get a bill passed in California making sterilisation compulsory and enforceable.

    We have been here before.

    “Eugenics is the self direction of human evolution.”

    Such was the definition used at the second International Eugenics Conference in 1921. Eugenics, the conscious application of selective breeding techniques to ‘improve’ the gene pool was popular at the time. It’s the ideology that influenced many of Hitler’s Nazi Party policies of extermination.

    Quite apart from the huge philosophical issues raised concerning the value of babies born to addicted parents there are some more basic errors too. After all traits associated with addiction and crime (they’re not necessarily the same, by the way) are as much social as they are genetic. In fact the notion of genetic links to crime is seriously short on evidence in the first place.

    Of course it could be argued that these addicts have a choice. However it would be a lame argument. The target group for this eugenic revival is the substance-dependent population. If the American experience is anything to go by it will be addicts from predominantly black neighbourhoods who are the main focus. By definition addicts in withdrawal are likely to go to almost any lengths to obtain their substance of choice.

    In these circumstances the offer of £200 becomes less of a free choice and more of a coersive and cynical strategy to gain co-operation from desperate people. I wonder how much Barbara Harris would be prepared to pay had she been able to persuade lawmakers to enforce her odious devaluation of children and their socially outcast parents.

    Even if we ignore the racist and particularly uncaring aspect of this scheme the narrow focus upon sterilisation doesn’t tackle the wider issues. There is a drug problem in UK and many children are affected by it but bribing desperate people to be sterilised doesn’t solve anything in the long term. There again, when the Project’s slogans include:

    “don’t let pregnancy get in the way of your drug habit”

    It’s clear that tackling the drugs problem isn’t really their point.

    Reproductive health services already exist in UK with a code of ethics that matches British views on human rights. Better to fund those services than bribe desperate people to give up on their chances of a future family.

    Even America, not generally renowned for it’s record on human rights has declined to ratify the proposal in law. I wonder if the UK will do as well as the states in rejecting this vile, sectarian attempt to return to the dehumanising ideologies of the past.

    I urge readers to express your distaste for this scheme by writing to your MP, and by doing what you can to raise awareness of the plan.

    Stuart Sorensen

    Stuart.sorensen@googlemail.com

    Update 31st May 2010:

    Project Prevention has amended its plans for UK. They will no longer be offering sterilisation to addicts within these shores:

    http://stuartsorensen.wordpress.com/2010/05/31/propject-prevention-amends-its-plans-for-uk/

    Who says speaking out doesn’t work?


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #22 - October 24, 2010, 07:46 PM

    Ah, make a thread based around a controversial subject and watch the insults fly, and Godwin's law fulfil itself.


    Controversial topics and their proponents should expect and be robust enough to withstand a few insults though Smiley

    Also, is it still Godwin's Law'ed if the subject actually resembles certian aspects of Nazism?

    Firstly, no-one is advocating forced sterilisation at all. That's number one.


    But how strongly do you really feel about this? Would you support it if it was to be made compulsory and enforceable?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #23 - October 24, 2010, 07:58 PM

    Also, is it still Godwin's Law'ed if the subject actually resembles certian aspects of Nazism?


    Yes, I think so. Godwin's Law is an observation on bringing up Nazis/Hitler in the course of internet debates, not a judgment on whether or not bringing up Nazis/Hitler is justified by the topic at hand. At least that's my understanding of it.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #24 - October 24, 2010, 08:00 PM

    Also, is it still Godwin's Law'ed if the subject actually resembles certian aspects of Nazism?


    You know, I'll have to think about that one.

    But how strongly do you really feel about this? Would you support it if it was to be made compulsory and enforceable?


    LOL Fuck no! I might as well just parade around in a brown shirt and grow a little Hitler tash.

    I'm pretty much politically libertarian, so I certainly wouldn't advocate forcing people to do anything, let alone something like this. And as it happens, I don't like it. It's a crass way of dealing with something, and it's pretty appalling that there are some people who are so fucked out their faces on drugs that they aren't capable of raising children.

    All the same though, in some cases, it'd no-doubt be the lesser evil. Better one person be sterilised than a whole bunch of innocent kids be born who, from the outset, stand to have a pretty shit upbringing, and suffer for the rest of their lives because of that.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #25 - October 24, 2010, 08:08 PM

    Don't really see the objection, more money should be offered as an incentive to be sterilized, maybe starting with the poor. Since rather then just the drugs addicts within the next 100 years we can lower the world population and also drastically reduce poverty, since children will not be born into a poverty stricken family, thus being removed from the cycle of poverty.

    Sometimes, we need to make rational decisions as opposed to emotional ones, we live on a planet with finite resources.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #26 - October 24, 2010, 08:13 PM

    I'm gonna step away from this one before I go fucking balistic.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts ?200 to be sterilised
     Reply #27 - October 24, 2010, 08:20 PM

    Don't really see the objection, more money should be offered as an incentive to be sterilized, maybe starting with the poor. Since rather then just the drugs addicts within the next 100 years we can lower the world population and also drastically reduce poverty, since children will not be born into a poverty stricken family, thus being removed from the cycle of poverty.

    Sometimes, we need to make rational decisions as opposed to emotional ones, we live on a planet with finite resources.


    Surprisingly I actually agree.
    People need to be rational about having children, and many that don't intend to have them - do so often by accident or believing they can rely on the government to benefit them financially or pay for the upbringing.
    None of which is acceptable IMO.

    I really don't see how offering a financial incentive to not have children is a bad thing and its obviously not mandatory (hence the offer of payment).

    This offer should be available to everyone (if the financial side permitted)
    This inline with a statement from the government that people will not receive financial help if parents have more children than they can afford to provide for.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #28 - October 24, 2010, 08:33 PM

    Mighty I think it becomes unethical for the government not to provide when, they parents do have a baby and then can't offered to support it. If that is the case the solution should be forced sterilization. Prevention is always better then the cure.
  • Re: Charity offers UK drug addicts £200 to be sterilised
     Reply #29 - October 24, 2010, 08:39 PM

    Ah, make a thread based around a controversial subject and watch the insults fly, and Godwin's law fulfil itself.


    lol - it's inevitable really if one thinks about the accessibility of the Internet.

    What do you make of this:


    I'd have to read into it more but I feel the "eugenic cause" issue is blown out of proportion. The focus of Harris' efforts is not eugenics as I see it, it is about a cause she is passionate about and well involved with (in fostering several kids of an addict). Btw, I'm not a proponent of eugenics.

    One other observation: I find it interesting how people who've experienced a cause are rejected by some people because (I think) a full perceptive on the matter isn't taken. Take Harris, she's fostered the kids of a drug addict who repeatedly had kids only not be able to care for them, and so Harris did instead. She's also seen many other real life examples, has seen the issue first hand and is passionately doing something about it.

    Then look at Marayam Namazie, an ex-Muslim, she knows the memeplex well and good, and yet not many people (liberals from my experience), would respect her when she says that it is "shocking not it ban it [the burka]".

    I'm gonna step away from this one before I go fucking balistic.


    Aw man, this was a good discussion with a respectful dialogue with you, I felt.
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