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Theme Changer

 Topic: Atheism is NOT a Belief

 (Read 21053 times)
  • 12 3 ... 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Atheism is NOT a Belief
     OP - October 21, 2010, 02:27 AM

    Ok, so I’m tired of the William Lane Craigs of the world, and all the religious bimbos and theist deadheads who follow his line of non-think and lol-logic, saying over and over again that atheism is as much of a belief as a theistic claim. They say atheism is an assertion, a claim, a statement, and requires ‘proof and evidence.’ They say atheism is a matter of faith - as much a matter of faith as believing in whatever magic fairystory book they are whining and mewling about and whatever superstitions they are wasting their life on. They say atheists are not being true to themselves by denying they believe, accuse them of intellectual dishonesty, of being irrational and ignorant, of being stubborn, inflexible. They say atheism is a religion, and worse, that atheists are just as dogmatic and evangelic as fundamentalists. And if I hear "absence of proof is not proof of absence" one more time, I'm gonna start taking hostages. Honestly, when did we lower our standards and start accepting lines like that as respectable philosophy?

    This is just old already. Mind-numbing. Jaw-dropping stupidity and its not funny anymore. The boredom of it gnaws at me. I can feel my life draining away whenever they speak like this. I feel like ramming an encyclopedia in their mouth.  The quick-fire nonsense these people fire out, like Rambo with bullshit for bullets. What gets me most worked up about this whole half-baked shambles of premise is that it's based on a false equivalency between belief without evidence and rational scepticism, and that faith in this context is somehow a virtue, to be respected. No thank you. You can have the corner on faith, thanks very much. If you want to believe something without any evidence, thats your buisness, but don't you dare compare yourself to me. Own your shit. I'm tired of spoon-feeding grown adults basic definitions, and holding their hand, walking them through a simple level of knowledge like a child.

    So, I just wanna share this video and also give massive props to the creator. I think its brilliant and absolutely clear. Very smart and classy. A step-by-step run down of the atheist position and how it differs from that of a theist on the crucial point of ‘belief,’ explaining the concept, refuting common objections and giving a number of reasons that atheists are sometimes 'fervent':

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb0KtJDk

    Here is his YouTube channel:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup

    Subscribe to him and check out his other videos.

    Peace!

    001_wub

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #1 - October 21, 2010, 03:26 AM

    There is a simple analogy that I always use.

    The theists believing in their whatever deities for which they have no solid evidence of, for their existence, infact none whatsoever, are akin to people who are dreaming.

    On the other hand, atheists are akin to people who are not dreaming.

    The act of not dreaming, is not an act of dreaming.



    Another thing is that, it is the theists who are asserting a or several claims for the existence of an or several entities for which they have definitions of and knowledge of regarding its or their properties/qualities/attributes etc. But these entities seem somehow specially to be existent only to them alone. Usually by it or they somehow interacting or manifesting only to them.

    It always initially starts out that noone are even aware of such entities, apart from those claiming their existence, that is the theists.

    Therefore the logical conclusion is, that these entities, must be biased or those who believe in these entities are suffering from delusion. For they appear to claim the existence of entities about whom the knowledge regarding thereof, generally tend to be confined to images or words.

    Even if we are to consider these entities to be existent and biased, why then, those of us, who due to our lack of awareness of the existence of these entities unlike those who are specially chosen to possess the knowledge regarding their existence, accept them?

    Is it not unfair that we already, are left out? Further still why should we accept it from those who claim of them? Is this not a scheme that is highly biased? where in which we are the sore losers?

    Those asserting the existence of entities for which they cannot prove by means that are demonstrable and obvious. Are the ones who are "believers". For what they believe in are simply not true and that which they claim regarding them are not facts and neither is the basis by which to believe in them reliable. The atheist or disbeliever is simply an individual who is not convinced due to the lack of evidence of the entities that are claimed to be existent or one who dismisses the claims asserted by the theists.

    This in itself is not a belief. But a lack of belief.

    One can neither prove nor disprove that which is non-existent.

    Usually the existence of that which cannot be proven tend to possess traits in combination which are not acceptable based upon what we believe to be true using common sense and simple observation of the natural world.

    For example, a human tends to look a certain way, behaves in a certain way and whether or not a specific human existed is based upon verifiable historical accounts or archaeological remains of him or her.

    Take the Hindu deity Krishna



    blue in complexion, black hair with curled locks, is generally depicted adorned with a pea cock feather, having upon him a garland of flowers and is of youthful countenance

    doesn't appear to be like a normal human

    what sources can we trace back to, that first speak of him?

    are these sources reliable? was there such an individual called Krishna? can we definitively prove such an individual even existed?

    of what importance let alone necessity is it of us to believe he even existed?

    Since we cannot prove nor disprove Krishna, it would be a neutral, I might argue even rational and natural thing to do, to not believe in such an absurd looking entity.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #2 - October 21, 2010, 04:36 AM

    Great video ishina Afro Too bad some of his arguments don't apply to Muslims Roll Eyes

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #3 - October 21, 2010, 12:31 PM

    Just switch the Bible for the Qur'an/Torah/Kitab-i-Aqdas/Vedas/Avestas/Adi-Granth/Bhagavad-Gita/Book of Mormon/Urantia, and you're good to go.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #4 - October 21, 2010, 02:04 PM

    Awesome video.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #5 - October 21, 2010, 06:43 PM

    Just switch the Bible for the Qur'an/Torah/Kitab-i-Aqdas/Vedas/Avestas/Adi-Granth/Bhagavad-Gita/Book of Mormon/Urantia, and you're good to go.

    Not exactly. There were a couple of points where I remember thinking the arguments did not fit Islamic beliefs. The one I remember off the top of my head is where he debunks the theist's claim that rocks and dogs should also be labeled atheists. A Muslim would never say that, as they believe all creation, including animals, plants, inanimate objects, etc, are muslims, meaning they submit to the will of the creator. Humans are the only exception because they have the choice to submit or not. So his point about that would mean nothing to a Muslim.

    There were a couple others but i'd have to watch again to find them. Doesn't change the fact that the video was well organized and coherent. One of the best explanations of atheism I've seen Smiley

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #6 - October 21, 2010, 09:20 PM

    This is a non-issue really - atheism may well attempt to be a negative comment about a certain belief but nobody lives in such a void. Everybody has positive beliefs about reality, even atheists.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #7 - October 21, 2010, 09:36 PM

    Everybody has positive beliefs about reality, even atheists.


    Of course we do. Lets keep focus on the actual issue though. Reality can mean many things. This is more specifically about belief or lack of belief in a deity.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #8 - October 21, 2010, 09:45 PM

    Well, I don't presume to speak for what a theist says but it seems to me that the video has missed the point. Sure, it may well be true that atheism says nothing positive about any claim but the point is that atheists then have other positive beliefs that act as alternatives to the religious worldview. After all, materialism is a metaphysical belief just like buddhism is.
    So, the theist position is this - we all have positive beliefs about reality, some of us include a deity in that, others do not but every positive belief is a metaphysical position and thus open to criticism and scrutiny. The atheists cannot turn around and say that just because their positive beliefs about reality don't include a diety that they are somehow free of error - even holding the belief that reason and logic have something valid to say about reality is a belief, so such a retort will not do. What is needed is for there to be produced a thoroughly valid reason for holding a positive belief (like materialism or scientific naturalism etc) and such a valid reason is impossible to produce and so the theist point holds. Everybody has beliefs, whether about deities or not and nobody has the right to point fingers because beliefs cannot be ranked objectively.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #9 - October 21, 2010, 09:48 PM

    I can't spell it out any clearer to you than that video, so I'm not even going to try.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #10 - October 21, 2010, 09:50 PM

    ok, let us take a different route if you will indulge me.  Smiley

    do you have any positive beliefs about reality at all?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #11 - October 21, 2010, 09:53 PM

    Do you realise how vague a question that is? Smiley

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #12 - October 21, 2010, 10:00 PM

    is it vague? by positive I mean a statement that attempts to understand reality. Do you think that there are any statements that can be made that accurately portray reality? bear in mind that even something inconsequential as "the sky is blue" is a positive statement

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #13 - October 21, 2010, 10:10 PM

    I believe that if I drop a ball, it will fall.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #14 - October 21, 2010, 10:15 PM

    Well that is a belief - it may be a well-documented, well-evidenced belief but it is a belief nonetheless, a falsifiable scientific hypothesis only - not truth. There will never be a condition in which you can claim that the effect will undoubtedly follow the cause as uncle Hume proved.

    Thus, as you hold doubtable beliefs just like theists do the difference between you and the theist is one of degree not kind.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #15 - October 21, 2010, 10:22 PM

    Like the video says, there is an extraordinary amount of resistance to the atheist position of no-belief in deities, even from otherwise intelligent and thoughtful people like your good self.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #16 - October 21, 2010, 10:29 PM

    But I have already agreed with you that atheism itself is not a belief.
    My point, rather, is that while atheism itself is not a belief, everybody still holds beliefs anyway so theists are valid in claiming so. Whether or not such beliefs include deities is a moot point.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #17 - October 21, 2010, 10:34 PM

    I'm just not understanding the relevance of this. Believing that the sun will rise tommorow morning is completely different from believing Allah causes it and he is the supreme architect of the universe. Believing that dogs exist is completely different to believing flying donkeys with human faces exist.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #18 - October 21, 2010, 10:39 PM

    Agreed, the sun rising is a lot more plausible than Allah existing. There is, however, one similarity between both statements - neither can be proven to be true beyond all doubt.
    That is all my point really is, that such a similarity exists and cannot be swept aside, every positive statement can be doubted, they all require some level of faith.
    You are right however, this is perhaps getting a bit too pedentic so I'll leave it there.  Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #19 - October 21, 2010, 10:43 PM

    z10: Your avatar relating to what's-his-names thought process to the Benzene molecule?

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #20 - October 21, 2010, 10:48 PM

    Agreed, the sun rising is a lot more plausible than Allah existing. There is, however, one similarity between both statements - neither can be proven to be true beyond all doubt.
    That is all my point really is, that such a similarity exists and cannot be swept aside, every positive statement can be doubted, they all require some level of faith.
    You are right however, this is perhaps getting a bit too pedentic so I'll leave it there.  Smiley


    Its an entirely different mode of thought. There are laws of logical reality we can take for granted. I do not apply the same level of reasoning or concious thought when I ponder the origins of the universe, as I do when I make decisions about the most basic things in life, like whether to eat food or poison for nourishment, or if I should leave my house through the front door or top floor window.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #21 - October 21, 2010, 10:52 PM

    Well, I don't presume to speak for what a theist says but it seems to me that the video has missed the point. Sure, it may well be true that atheism says nothing positive about any claim but the point is that atheists then have other positive beliefs that act as alternatives to the religious worldview. After all, materialism is a metaphysical belief just like buddhism is.
    So, the theist position is this - we all have positive beliefs about reality, some of us include a deity in that, others do not but every positive belief is a metaphysical position and thus open to criticism and scrutiny. The atheists cannot turn around and say that just because their positive beliefs about reality don't include a diety that they are somehow free of error - even holding the belief that reason and logic have something valid to say about reality is a belief, so such a retort will not do. What is needed is for there to be produced a thoroughly valid reason for holding a positive belief (like materialism or scientific naturalism etc) and such a valid reason is impossible to produce and so the theist point holds. Everybody has beliefs, whether about deities or not and nobody has the right to point fingers because beliefs cannot be ranked objectively.

    Thats fine, and if theists were only doing that then it would probably not go much further.  

    However these metaphysical claims crossover & encroach into reality- where we realise the concept of a  personal God, one which intereacts with us & the world arounds us.

    It listens to your prayers, it makes you better when you are ill etc and all these claims can be rechecked emprically, and proven to be false.  

    So they want to make metaphysical claims anbout the metaphysical world - fine - but you cant have it both ways, leave it there & dont encroach onto any other territory.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #22 - October 21, 2010, 10:59 PM

    But I have already agreed with you that atheism itself is not a belief.
    My point, rather, is that while atheism itself is not a belief, everybody still holds beliefs anyway so theists are valid in claiming so.

    Does consistancy not even come into it?  So you think the belef in atheism is an equally valid belief in Islam or even FSM?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #23 - October 21, 2010, 11:25 PM

    z10: Your avatar relating to what's-his-names thought process to the Benzene molecule?


    I'm sorry but I don't know if my avatar has anything to do with the benzene molecule. I do know however, that it is called an ouroburus and it features prominently in mythical symbology. It portrays a dragon eating its own tail and attempts to show the idea of circularity, that which is forever consigned to repeat itself. It has alot of connections with the wheel of time idea of both buddhism and hinduism in which events go through a circular pattern where they come back upon themselves and repeat themselves both as individuals (the idea of reincarnation) and the whole cosmos itself. The symbol is also prominent in some western myths - for instance the idea of St George slaying the dragon and freeing the princess. Seen symbolically this story is an allegory for the attempt to escape the cyclical nature of reality and acheive transcendence by saving your soul (the princess) from the jealous grips of the dragon of reality.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #24 - October 21, 2010, 11:26 PM

    Its an entirely different mode of thought. There are laws of logical reality we can take for granted.


    Sure, you can take them for granted for all pragmatic matters but nothing can be taken for granted when you are being epistemologically accurate.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #25 - October 21, 2010, 11:27 PM

    z10: Your avatar relating to what's-his-names thought process to the Benzene molecule?


    Kekulé? Also on the topic of Avatars, yours looks like that jew from NCIS. Ziva I think her name was.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #26 - October 21, 2010, 11:27 PM

    Thats fine, and if theists were only doing that then it would probably not go much further.  

    However these metaphysical claims crossover & encroach into reality- where we realise the concept of a  personal God, one which intereacts with us & the world arounds us.

    It listens to your prayers, it makes you better when you are ill etc and all these claims can be rechecked emprically, and proven to be false.  

    So they want to make metaphysical claims anbout the metaphysical world - fine - but you cant have it both ways, leave it there & dont encroach onto any other territory.


    Agreed, but I'm not really interested in the problems of theism itself, it has many and most of them are indefensible.
    On this one point about the shaky foundations of all human knowledge, theists however have it right.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #27 - October 21, 2010, 11:29 PM

    Does consistancy not even come into it?  So you think the belef in atheism is an equally valid belief in Islam or even FSM?


    No, I'm sorry but I think you misunderstood my point. There is no belief in atheism, it is a negation of a belief not a belief in itself.
    However, any positive statement is open to scrutiny and can never be completely accurate. This does not mean that all positive statements are equal, some are more plausible than others, but they all share the same epistemological foundation and this cannot be denied.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #28 - October 21, 2010, 11:32 PM

    Agreed, but I'm not really interested in the problems of theism itself, it has many and most of them are indefensible.
    On this one point about the shaky foundations of all human knowledge, theists however have it right.

    Not sure if I would agree with you.  My point was that the problems of theism are part & parcel of the claims they make. 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #29 - October 21, 2010, 11:33 PM

    No, I'm sorry but I think you misunderstood my point. There is no belief in atheism, it is a negation of a belief not a belief in itself.
    However, any positive statement is open to scrutiny and can never be completely accurate. This does not mean that all positive statements are equal, some are more plausible than others, but they all share the same epistemological foundation and this cannot be denied.

    some are more right than others  Wink

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
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