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Theme Changer

 Topic: Atheism is NOT a Belief

 (Read 21090 times)
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  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #60 - October 22, 2010, 02:19 PM

    z10 - do you consider the possibility that 1+1=3?

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  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #61 - October 22, 2010, 02:27 PM

    Agreed, the sun rising is a lot more plausible than Allah existing. There is, however, one similarity between both statements - neither can be proven to be true beyond all doubt.

    That is all my point really is, that such a similarity exists and cannot be swept aside, every positive statement can be doubted, they all require some level of faith.

    You are right however, this is perhaps getting a bit too pedentic
    so I'll leave it there.  Smiley


    lol Mr.Philosophy Major.

    Obviously it is.

    Do you think physicists should highlight to elementary school science students that Newton's Laws of Motion are not fundamentally applicable?
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #62 - October 22, 2010, 02:44 PM

    You are right however, this is perhaps getting a bit too pedentic so I'll leave it there.  Smiley

    Bend over for me boy

     doghouse

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  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #63 - October 22, 2010, 06:32 PM

    Logical_Mind44, Kant argued that existence is not a real predicate. 
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #64 - October 22, 2010, 11:02 PM

    z10 is technically right on this one [sorry for sounding too rude eariler]. without positive beliefs one would be pretty much 'mind'less. i just tend to get pissed with science ever getting equated to ramblings of desert hallucinators. plus the fact that there is hardly anything ever concluded in philosophy. the reason daniel denett doesn't take on WLC is that each point of contention in such a philosophical debate has a 100 philosophy books written about it and he knows it.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #65 - October 23, 2010, 12:31 AM

    lol Mr.Philosophy Major.

    Obviously it is.

    Do you think physicists should highlight to elementary school science students that Newton's Laws of Motion are not fundamentally applicable?


    Definitely. 100%. When kids are old enough to learn the theory, they are old enough to learn that it could possibly (and probably) wrong. Kids grow up thinking that everything they read in science and history is an absolute fact, there is no doubt that they should be told they are not.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #66 - October 23, 2010, 12:37 AM

    Bend over for me boy

     doghouse


    Pedantic, but correct. Wink

    Waisay, I think z10 is the only one on this forum who recognizes that conceding to points and giving other the benefit of the doubt in discussion is the way a proper discussion should be held. I think suggesting that conducting in an actual discussion instead of arguing a point until the death is considered 'bending over', is sort of silly.

    Not everything has to be a debate. I thought we are all here to figure out the truth, not to champion our own opinions as correct...? Too much adversarial paradigm on this forum.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #67 - October 23, 2010, 12:41 AM

    I don't see how this is even relevant anyway, as you all seem to be admitting that you technically think he's right, but you just don't care dance
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #68 - October 23, 2010, 12:45 AM

    z10 is technically right on this one [sorry for sounding too rude eariler]. without positive beliefs one would be pretty much 'mind'less. i just tend to get pissed with science ever getting equated to ramblings of desert hallucinators. plus the fact that there is hardly anything ever concluded in philosophy. the reason daniel denett doesn't take on WLC is that each point of contention in such a philosophical debate has a 100 philosophy books written about it and he knows it.


    As I mentioned in my post, there is a different between "truth with a capital T" and merely truth (as the word is typically used). As for religion, it contains no truth (or at least, virtually no possibility of being true). Science has truths, but nothing that can be proven for certain, or rather, proven as a capital "T" truth.

    Tut was on the right track I think when he mentioned Godel's incompleteness theorem. It demonstrates that even within mathematical systems, the system itself cannot be independently proven outside of itself. Thus, it even doesn't represent this capital "T" truth. The same is the case for science, except science is slightly more shaky because not only is the system on the whole called into question, but the specific claims within the system.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #69 - October 23, 2010, 12:46 AM

    I was spanking him for being pedantic, not for any other reason.

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  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #70 - October 23, 2010, 12:49 AM

    Quote
    I was spanking him for being pedantic, not for any other reason


    Fair enough,  sorry, I just get protective  001_wub
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #71 - October 23, 2010, 01:01 AM

    Dont be sorry, I think its really sweet.  z10 should be very proud somebody cares about him as much as you obviously do  far away hug

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  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #72 - October 23, 2010, 01:05 AM

    As I mentioned in my post, there is a different between "truth with a capital T" and merely truth (as the word is typically used). As for religion, it contains no truth (or at least, virtually no possibility of being true). Science has truths, but nothing that can be proven for certain, or rather, proven as a capital "T" truth.

    Tut was on the right track I think when he mentioned Godel's incompleteness theorem. It demonstrates that even within mathematical systems, the system itself cannot be independently proven outside of itself. Thus, it even doesn't represent this capital "T" truth. The same is the case for science, except science is slightly more shaky because not only is the system on the whole called into question, but the specific claims within the system.


    thats incorrect. if you want to get too technical, there is no way of estimating the probability of an undetectable creator god of some kind, or even the abrahamic god if he decided to play whimsical and hide himself temporarily. the mathematics of probability will fail in these conditions.

    the trouble is that there is no end to whacky metaphysical claims for which estimation of probabilty fails. so i have no idea of what you mean by degree of 'trueness'.

    science and religion are different in the sense of corroborative evidence that is objective to the human senses. they are different kind of claims imo, substantiated by different categories of evidence. (personal testimony vs corroborating measurement). i don't think scientists even claim knowledge of reality as it truly is.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #73 - October 23, 2010, 01:11 AM

    btw, don't mind if i sound stupid. i've been working for 11 hours flat. (and i should be f'in paid a little more for that  finmad)
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #74 - October 23, 2010, 08:13 AM



    complexity derives from simplicity, complexity seems to be increasing in this universe

    namely; organic evolution[biology] and stages of development of the universe[cosmology]




    How do you know that what you consider to be complexity is in fact real complexity in the actual ontology of the universe?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #75 - October 23, 2010, 08:15 AM


    There is no specific reason or base for us to construct this "reality", but it has provided as a useful way of developing scientific methodology. The robust logic that we apply don't have to be so as well, but it gets results. And since there is no other way that works best as far as we know. We accept this.



    This is fine, there is nothing wrong in adopting a method that works. The point is though that you have to accept that while it works, it is still a leap of faith.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #76 - October 23, 2010, 08:18 AM

    Atheists tend to have the plain worldview. It is you theists who add your own mix to it. Even then you theists cannot agree upon whether your entities of worship, be they one or several, are confined within material realms. Whereas most atheists rely solely upon science to confirm any metaphysical claim without invoking any supernatural entities.




    Science never has and never will answer a metaphysical question. This is a category error.
    Science is an incredibly potent tool, but to accept science as the whole and complete truth is an assumption.

    I am not a theist, I am just concerned that there is an unwarranted position amongst atheists that they don't also have beliefs and take leaps of faith.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #77 - October 23, 2010, 08:20 AM

    z10 - do you consider the possibility that 1+1=3?


    I am not aware of any absolutely certain proof that this statement is actually true. Hence, the only position one can take is scepticism. Perhaps a proof may well be demonstrated in the future, a sceptical position does not state that everything is unknowable forever, but that right now we have no proof of actuality in any phenomena, whether abstract or concrete.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #78 - October 23, 2010, 08:22 AM



    the trouble is that there is no end to whacky metaphysical claims for which estimation of probabilty fails. so i have no idea of what you mean by degree of 'trueness'.



    You said above that you felt the position I am advocating is technically correct.
    Which means that you also have "whacky metaphysical claims" as much as anybody else.  Wink

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #79 - October 23, 2010, 08:41 AM

    Yes, ok, we can never truly know anything. But so what? That’s it. That’s where that thought diversion ends. A little bit of intellectual masturbation. Been there, seen that, heard it, explored that possibility. Why linger there? Lets go back to reality.


    One has to linger here because there is no going back to that reality blissfully if one sees the real force of this idea - no reality is free of doubt, absolutely nothing, there is nowhere one can hide from this truth. One can accept reality but one has to accept the fundamental assumption first and foremost.

    Chuang tzu has a famous story where he wakes up from a dream where he thought he was a butterfly and asks the most important question: am I a butterfly dreaming now or a man dreaming then? What possible answer to life can satisfy one here that doesn't avoid that question? Intellectual masturbation it may well seem like but it is the only place to start if one seeks true knowledge and real understanding, to skip this part and move on is to always have a flawed view of reality.

    Quote
    I’m an artist. I have to take hold of life - watch it unfold, knowing that its there, study it, sense it, reach out and touch it, rely on it, need it, want it, experience it, taste it, be aware of it, consciously. I need to understand it and be able to describe it. I need a measure of control over it. A mastery of it. Know it intimately. But more importantly, I need to be affected by it - love it or hate it, enjoy it, be stirred and inspired. I need my ideas to crystallise, not evaporate into vague phantom possibilities. They need to have form, life, meaning, substance, not float away before they ever had a chance to be something. Its my purpose to weave the tapestry, not pick it apart as I go along. I need patterns, shapes, colours, even if I have to apply my own. I need something to get my teeth into. I need to bite into it and lick the juice that runs down my chin.


    It is this very problem of fundamental existence that bestows the universe with unending mystery. The phenomena of reality may or may not be a true reflection of what really is, but everyone creates meaning for the world - all that is asked that it be accepted for the subjective belief that it is. 

    Quote

    It is not as simple as creating beautiful works of art. Beauty is a fickle and subjective concept - a man-made, intangible entity. For this reason, there is no such thing as good or bad art - only truth or lies.


    I cannot see how you can call beauty subjective and intangible on one hand and on the other hand you say it has something to do with the truth. That which is merely subjective and intangible has no proof of being the truth. Being subjective means that it is your own creation of what reality is, and your creation is not safe from doubt.

    Quote
    I am happy with this awkward truth, however True it might or might not be. It makes sense, and it must be appreciated fully for what it is, be explored, driven forward. I can only be fulfilled by sharing this reality, and I’d be purposeless without it. Even this humble understanding, this human amount of certainty, of this narrow spectrum of reality is enough to fuel my fire.


    That is fine, you may continue on your quest of creating art and appreciate the purpose that it gives you, but let's not say that those who are troubled by this doubt have empty worries. Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #80 - October 23, 2010, 09:09 AM

    Quote
    Perhaps a proof may well be demonstrated in the future, a sceptical position does not state that everything is unknowable forever, but that right now we have no proof of actuality in any phenomena, whether abstract or concrete.

    Would it matter anyway? I thought your point was nothing is knowable, in which case proof would be irrelevent.

    I am not aware of any absolutely certain proof that this statement is actually true. Hence, the only position one can take is scepticism.

    So you're sceptical about 1+1=2?

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  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #81 - October 23, 2010, 09:13 AM

    Yes I am. Can you prove it's true?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #82 - October 23, 2010, 09:14 AM

    I dont understand why you are asking for proof - like I said earlier, it would be irrelevent, wouldnt it?

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  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #83 - October 23, 2010, 09:20 AM

    There is a possibility that we might be able to prove certain things.
    In the terms of Kant, though we do not the noumena, there still is a noumena - this is one Truth that is without doubt. Whatever the character of the noumena, a noumena there is. Perhaps from this one Truth we can extrapolate other knowledge but it hasn't happened and may never happen.


    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #84 - October 23, 2010, 09:28 AM

    Science never has and never will answer a metaphysical question. This is a category error.
    Science is an incredibly potent tool, but to accept science as the whole and complete truth is an assumption.

    I am not a theist, I am just concerned that there is an unwarranted position amongst atheists that they don't also have beliefs and take leaps of faith.


    +1
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #85 - October 23, 2010, 09:36 AM

    I agree nothing can be 100%, at the end of the day I might be reading you 1 as a 7, so for me 1+1=14  grin12

    Which is why we use the scientific method as a means of discovering, verifying, replicating & recording observable truth.  And that has to be the standard from which we measure the truth from.

    Thats because like I said earlier this method is proven to work as we are prepared to rely on it for our health, advancements etc.  If our premises or axioms were wrong (e.g. 1+1=2) then none of it would work.


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  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #86 - October 23, 2010, 09:49 AM

    Guys some of you need to go back and re: philosophy 101, read some Kant on the critique of pure reason.  Roll Eyes read some, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Whitehead, Nishida, Fromm etc.

    Truth we cant know for sure, it is a Solipsistic position, but equally valid in the frame of philosophy.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #87 - October 23, 2010, 10:02 AM

    I agree nothing can be 100%, at the end of the day I might be reading you 1 as a 7, so for me 1+1=14  grin12

    Which is why we use the scientific method as a means of discovering, verifying, replicating & recording observable truth.  And that has to be the standard from which we measure the truth from.

    Thats because like I said earlier this method is proven to work as we are prepared to rely on it for our health, advancements etc.  If our premises or axioms were wrong (e.g. 1+1=2) then none of it would work.




    How can you say that the scientific method works when your "state of health" is an assumption?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #88 - October 23, 2010, 10:43 AM

    You said above that you felt the position I am advocating is technically correct.
    Which means that you also have "whacky metaphysical claims" as much as anybody else.  Wink


    Oh come on z10... really?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheism is NOT a Belief
     Reply #89 - October 23, 2010, 10:46 AM

    Not everything has to be a debate. I thought we are all here to figure out the truth, not to champion our own opinions as correct...? Too much adversarial paradigm on this forum.


    This is a little unfair. I don’t think the idea that "nothing is 100%" was ever seriously in question. Wondering how something is relevant isn’t necessarily disagreeing with it.

    We all have positive beliefs about a variety of things in life. Atheism isn’t a positive belief though.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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