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Theme Changer

 Topic: Pantheism

 (Read 19980 times)
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  • Pantheism
     OP - October 29, 2010, 08:23 PM
    (Follow-on from this thread to avoid a derail..)

    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on October 29, 2010, 07:38 PM
    It's the embodiment of the same laws that make up and govern everything else. I can see the value of defining it for the study of 'the origin of life', but that's not something I find as wondrous as most people do.

    Quote from: IsLame on October 29, 2010, 08:03 PM
    Spoken like a true pantheist yes  I get where you are coming from now..

    If you get the time please feel free to tell us about your pantheism & how you came to those conclusions  Afro

    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on October 29, 2010, 08:16 PM
    What do you want to know.

    how you came to be a pantheist, and whats stops you from being an atheist
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  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #1 - October 29, 2010, 08:25 PM
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6161.msg361065#msg361065

    Sorry Tongue
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #2 - October 30, 2010, 05:33 PM
    "I believe in God, only I spell it Nature"
    ~ Frank Lloyd Wright

    “The first act of awe, when man was struck with the beauty or wonder of Nature, was the
    first spiritual experience."
    ~ Henryk Skolimowski

    “Despite great diversity, there is a shared worldview and ethics in both super-naturalistic and naturalistic forms of contemporary nature-oriented spirituality. The common perception can be stated succinctly: The earth and all its life forms and processes are sacred. We belong to them and they to us - we are kin. We should, therefore, act lovingly, reverently, and respectfully toward them. We must not unnecessarily injure these beings and processes when we take from them what we need to live. The key to contemporary earth-based spirituality and ethics is, therefore, a felt sense of “connection,” kinship, and loyalty to earth, her life forms, and living systems.”
    ~ Bron Taylor

    “Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries. ”
    ~ Carl Sagan

    001_wub
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #3 - October 30, 2010, 05:47 PM
    The great prophet Sagan has spoken.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #4 - October 30, 2010, 06:27 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 30, 2010, 05:33 PM
    "I believe in God, only I spell it Nature"
    ~ Frank Lloyd Wright

    This could be construed it 2 different ways, and has always puzzled me - one has a spiritual element to it, the other doesnt, & is akin to classical atheism.  Which is it? 

    If pantheism is a subset of atheism, then how is it different from classical atheism?  According to Prince Spinoza it has a spiritual element to it?
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  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #5 - October 30, 2010, 06:28 PM
    There is no Universe but the Universe, and Sagan is the Messenger of the Universe.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #6 - October 30, 2010, 06:41 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on October 30, 2010, 06:27 PM
    This could be construed it 2 different ways, and has always puzzled me - one has a spiritual element to it, the other doesnt, & is akin to classical atheism.  Which is it? 

    If pantheism is a subset of atheism, then how is it different from classical atheism?  According to Prince Spinoza it has a spiritual element to it?


    There are too many different archetypes of pantheism to answer this question in a soundbyte. From certian Hindu and Buddhist paths that claim: All is God, some mystical spiritual energy source from which we come and which we will again join with, to the naturalistic and scientific sense of wonder and adventure of great minds like Einstein.

    God can mean many things. We sometimes forget that since the Abrahamic faiths have been so successful in claiming monopoly on the word 'god' and propagating the idea of god as an anthromorphisised creator figure, whom we must have a personal relationship with and can actually have a conversation with.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #7 - October 30, 2010, 06:47 PM
    So pantheism is like an umbralla term for theism without any religion attached to it?
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  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #8 - October 30, 2010, 06:49 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on October 30, 2010, 06:27 PM
    This could be construed it 2 different ways, and has always puzzled me - one has a spiritual element to it, the other doesnt, & is akin to classical atheism.  Which is it?  

    If pantheism is a subset of atheism, then how is it different from classical atheism?  According to Prince Spinoza it has a spiritual element to it?


    “If you wish to converse with me, define your terms” - Voltaire

    What do you understand by the term spirituality?
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #9 - October 30, 2010, 06:53 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on October 30, 2010, 06:49 PM
    “If you wish to converse with me, define your terms” - Voltaire

    What do you understand by the term spirituality?

    paranormal existence/events..

    Tell us about the events that lead you to become a pantheist too.
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  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #10 - October 30, 2010, 06:53 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on October 30, 2010, 06:47 PM
    So pantheism is like an umbralla term for theism without any religion attached to it?

    P.S Are you happy with the above definition?  Can you narrow it down further, or are you still in the process of working it all out?
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  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #11 - October 30, 2010, 06:56 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on October 30, 2010, 06:53 PM
    paranormal existence/events..


    I don't believe in the supernatural, if that's what you mean.

    Quote
    Tell us about the events that lead you to become a pantheist too.



    Like I said, when I can articulate my thoughts. Words and numbers I find easy to recall, but with feelings it's altogether more difficult. :/

  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #12 - October 30, 2010, 06:58 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on October 30, 2010, 06:53 PM
    P.S Are you happy with the above definition?  Can you narrow it down further, or are you still in the process of working it all out?


    I consider it just the idea that everything which exists is composed of a common substance(s) - what that/those is/are, is where people's views differ.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #13 - October 30, 2010, 06:59 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on October 30, 2010, 06:47 PM
    So pantheism is like an umbralla term for theism without any religion attached to it?


    No, theism is an umbrella term for theism without any religion attached to it Smiley

    Theism is the belief in a deity in the broadest possible sense. Once you attach any given religion, mythology, ritual practice to it, it becomes something specific.

    Some pantheistic paths have no deities in the conventional sense, for example. Or it might be the case that a pantheist has an idea or understanding of the word 'god' as an expression in language of some spiritual goal or relationship with the natural world, without superstition.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #14 - October 30, 2010, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on October 30, 2010, 06:56 PM
    Like I said, when I can articulate my thoughts. Words and numbers I find easy to recall, but with feelings it's altogether more difficult. :/

    To simplify, you mean something powerful overcame you ?
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  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #15 - October 30, 2010, 07:18 PM
    Yes.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #16 - October 30, 2010, 07:25 PM
    Quote
    God can mean many things. We sometimes forget that since the Abrahamic faiths have been so successful in claiming monopoly on the word 'god' and propagating the idea of god as an anthromorphisised creator figure, whom we must have a personal relationship with and can actually have a conversation with.


    Prime cause for the neurosis of the followers of the Abrahamic faiths. Their sheer arrogance makes them see their beliefs as unimpeachable truths.The Man in the Sky is impotent and they make up all kinds of excuses for his inaction.


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #17 - October 30, 2010, 08:39 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on October 30, 2010, 07:18 PM
    Yes.

    I'm great at guesswork - When you get the chance stick it up here, I am sure there is another explanation for it.  Until then, go & stand in the naughty corner
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  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #18 - November 01, 2010, 07:30 AM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on October 30, 2010, 06:58 PM
    I consider it just the idea that everything which exists is composed of a common substance(s) - what that/those is/are, is where people's views differ.


    This seems to be more of a monist position than a pantheist one. I think perhaps for monism to become pantheism you have to consider that this "common substance" may be in some partial or even total way transcendent/ metaphysical etc.
    Your thoughts?
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #19 - November 01, 2010, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on October 30, 2010, 06:58 PM
    I consider it just the idea that everything which exists is composed of a common substance(s) - what that/those is/are, is where people's views differ.


    Of course as you know everything that exists is composed of the same physical substance - stardust - and everything is connected in this manner (furthermore there is un underlying symmetry in that everything is governed by the same laws of science). Do you think it's possible there might be something 'extra-physical' that connects everything?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #20 - November 01, 2010, 04:41 PM
    Quote from: z10 on November 01, 2010, 07:30 AM
    This seems to be more of a monist position than a pantheist one. I think perhaps for monism to become pantheism you have to consider that this "common substance" may be in some partial or even total way transcendent/ metaphysical etc.
    Your thoughts?


    Wouldn't giving this 'substance' the attribute of being transcendent, or transcendental rather resemble spinoza's god, or rather panentheism as opposed to pantheism(which as far as I understand it is EVERYTHING IN REALITY IS GOD etc etc).

    btw i mean the philosopher spinoza, not the paki
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #21 - November 01, 2010, 04:45 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on November 01, 2010, 02:43 PM
    Of course as you know everything that exists is composed of the same physical substance - stardust

    excellent frikkin point, I wish I had thought  that
    Quote from: z10 on November 01, 2010, 07:30 AM
    This seems to be more of a monist position than a pantheist one. I think perhaps for monism to become pantheism you have to consider that this "common substance" may be in some partial or even total way transcendent/ metaphysical etc.
    Your thoughts?

     
    Looks like everyone should be a monist then Wink

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  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #22 - November 01, 2010, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on October 30, 2010, 06:56 PM
    I don't believe in the supernatural, if that's what you mean.

    You dont believe in the supernatural, yet you believe we are all made of some common magic/unknown stuff?

    It still sounds like several leaps of faith to me. 

    To be overcome by something powerful, and because of this to go onto assume everything in the universe is made of fairydust - Hmmm?
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  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #23 - November 01, 2010, 07:02 PM
    Quote from: z10 on November 01, 2010, 07:30 AM
    This seems to be more of a monist position than a pantheist one. I think perhaps for monism to become pantheism you have to consider that this "common substance" may be in some partial or even total way transcendent/ metaphysical etc.
    Your thoughts?


    My thoughts are annoyed that you confused them.

    If this substance is all there is, what is the use in defining it as 'totally transcendent'?

    Monism is an umbrella term, most pantheists were/are monists.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #24 - November 01, 2010, 07:04 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on November 01, 2010, 02:43 PM
    Of course as you know everything that exists is composed of the same physical substance - stardust - and everything is connected in this manner (furthermore there is un underlying symmetry in that everything is governed by the same laws of science).


    I do, yes. (But you don't. Smiley) I don't see your point.

    Quote
    Do you think it's possible there might be something 'extra-physical' that connects everything?


    Extra physical?
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #25 - November 01, 2010, 07:05 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 01, 2010, 04:45 PM
    excellent frikkin point, I wish I had thought  that


    Lol, wasn't that kinda obvious?
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #26 - November 01, 2010, 07:07 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 01, 2010, 04:53 PM
    You dont believe in the supernatural, yet you believe we are all made of some common magic/unknown stuff?

    It still sounds like several leaps of faith to me. 


    How so?

    Quote
    To be overcome by something powerful, and because of this to go onto assume everything in the universe is made of fairydust - Hmmm?


    What's fairydust? Huh?
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #27 - November 01, 2010, 07:11 PM
    Quote from: serrated_colon on November 01, 2010, 04:41 PM
    Wouldn't giving this 'substance' the attribute of being transcendent, or transcendental rather resemble spinoza's god, or rather panentheism as opposed to pantheism(which as far as I understand it is EVERYTHING IN REALITY IS GOD etc etc).

    btw i mean the philosopher spinoza, not the paki


    Spinoza's God was immanent, not transcendent.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #28 - November 01, 2010, 07:17 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on November 01, 2010, 07:04 PM
    I do, yes. (But you don't. Smiley) I don't see your point.

    Extra physical?


    ok whatever  Tongue
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #29 - November 01, 2010, 07:20 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on November 01, 2010, 07:07 PM
    How so?

    What's fairydust? Huh?

    Oh dear, dont start DH'ing on me - not answering questions, and instead asking questions of the questions asked.  Alright let me have a go...

    Quote
    How so?


    Lets take a paranormal event x, that cannot be explained by y.  Because of that we assume p is made of q.  The leap of faith is assuming the 2 statements above are intrinsically linked.  Relgionists do the same thing too..

    Quote
    What's fairydust?

    I used it to mean the opposite of stardust i.e. something metaphysical.

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