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 Topic: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM

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  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #120 - November 19, 2010, 02:11 PM
    Quote from: XxThaminaxX
    I'd say less than 30% have actually read the Quran in a language they understand--I still haven't read it all in english lol


    So let's say roughly 80% of Muslims have significant gaps in knowledge of the core teachings of the religion they profess to follow. You OK with that Spinoza? In other words - and correct my reasoning if you find it faulty - 80% of Muslims do not reject the violence and politics in the Koran as a matter of principle because they do not know about it. What proportion of that 80%  would you reckon are devout insofar as their understanding of Islam goes and consider themselves good Muslims in the sight of Allah?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #121 - November 19, 2010, 02:36 PM
    DH, what did I tell you about using statistics?
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #122 - November 19, 2010, 03:23 PM
    Quote from: DH on November 19, 2010, 02:11 PM
    So let's say roughly 80% of Muslims have significant gaps in knowledge of the core teachings of the religion they profess to follow. You OK with that Spinoza? In other words - and correct my reasoning if you find it faulty - 80% of Muslims do not reject the violence and politics in the Koran as a matter of principle because they do not know about it. What proportion of that 80%  would you reckon are devout insofar as their understanding of Islam goes and consider themselves good Muslims in the sight of Allah?

    Would you accept Christians & ex-Christians to agree on how violent Christianity really is?

    You appear to happily accept the bias in this forum because it suits your conclusions.  We realise its bogus, so we can now see it with unblinkered vision - we can call a spade a spade.  Somebody still caught up in the throes of Islam, wont see it that way & wont be able to see their God in this way and will perform all sorts of mental acrobatics to avoid it.  This happens with Christianity's murderous & abhorrent passages today.

    Just because we believe its violent, it doesnt mean Muslims who read the Quran will automatically see it as so.

    The vast majority of Muslims will not even accept that the religion is violent, even those that have read the Quran! 
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #123 - November 19, 2010, 03:45 PM
    Quote from: DH on November 19, 2010, 06:35 AM
    It is. Inherently and irredeemably so. It provides no get out clauses for people who might dislike its barbarities and wish they weren't there.


    I agree that some forms of Islam are more politically assertive and absolutist than other religions/ideologies today.  In the more puritanical forms (i.e. Salafi, Deobandi, etc.),  there are no compromises.  Other forms can be a little more nuanced.  Would you lump the moderate Ismailis or Sufis under the same umbrella as the traditionalists?  Sure, the Quran isn't going to be rewritten anytime soon but neither is Deuteronomy.  I've got no problems with people tearing apart stupid theology and raving fanatics but why go after moderates and ex-Muslims?

  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #124 - November 19, 2010, 04:38 PM
    Quote from: Telomeme
    I've got no problems with people tearing apart stupid theology and raving fanatics but why go after moderates and ex-Muslims?


    Who's "going after" anybody? What forms the basis of "moderation" in peoples practice of Islam is an important question. If most people who call themselves Muslims are "moderates" out of ignorance but are, like the UK Parliamentarian's would-be knifer, otherwise "QUITE RELIGIOUS" what happens when they are exposed, like the afforementioned, to those whose knowledge of the Koran and traditions is greater than their own?
     
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #125 - November 19, 2010, 05:35 PM
    DH the size sample (which serrated colon has mentioned and been chasing you up and down this thread about) is too small (500) to be a representative sample of Muslims who think Shari'ah should be implemented in Britain. However, you are once again neglecting the fact that many Muslims come here to escape Islamic shari'ah law and seek a freer life. Even if we assume the sample is representative of all Muslims in Britain (huge assumption) that would be 40% of a 3% (max) Muslim population which is 1.2% of the whole UK population. So 1.2% of the population is going to force Shari'ah in the UK?

    As we see more and more Muslims being raised in the UK, I think there inevitably will be a younger generation of Muslims who will feel an attachment to British values and with this we will see more and more Muslims adopting a 'modern' form of Islam to reconcile with these western values - this process has already begun and it will become more widespread within the Muslim community.

    Your solution is rather irrational and unfair against Muslims who want to come here to seek a decent living and do not mean to impose their religion on anyone else, and such a policy will not only further alienate Muslims by giving moderates a basis to attack Britain i.e. unjust and discriminatory immigration policy. If you think stopping Muslim immigration will stop the Islamist radicalisation then you're severely mistaken, it will only fuel it, and increase potential security threats.



     
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #126 - November 19, 2010, 05:37 PM
    Quote from: DH on November 19, 2010, 02:11 PM
    So let's say roughly 80% of Muslims have significant gaps in knowledge of the core teachings of the religion they profess to follow. You OK with that Spinoza? In other words - and correct my reasoning if you find it faulty - 80% of Muslims do not reject the violence and politics in the Koran as a matter of principle because they do not know about it.


    That's faulty reasoning.

    Some of the teachings in the Qur'an that they may not be aware of already contrast with principles that they have attained by other means. If they ever were to stumble upon a 'violent and political' interpretation of the Qur'an, they will likely reject it, or alter it to keep in line with their principles.

    These Muslims have convinced themselves that numerous scientifically inaccurate verses in the qur'an are actually miraculous, and in the face of all evidence to the contrary they staunchly believe that it's so. They've re-interpreted the qur'an's faulty and out-dated science to fit modern times, they can do the same with its politics.

    Quote
    What proportion of that 80%  would you reckon are devout insofar as their understanding of Islam goes and consider themselves good Muslims in the sight of Allah?


    Insofar as they consider Islam to be about being the best person, from a moral viewpoint, they can be (in senses that are mostly sound), I'd say less than half.
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #127 - November 19, 2010, 05:39 PM
    Quote from: DH on November 19, 2010, 04:38 PM
    Who's "going after" anybody? What forms the basis of "moderation" in peoples practice of Islam is an important question. If most people who call themselves Muslims are "moderates" out of ignorance but are, like the UK Parliamentarian's would-be knifer, otherwise "QUITE RELIGIOUS" what happens when they are exposed, like the afforementioned, to those whose knowledge of the Koran and traditions is greater than their own?
     


    Some of the statements you've written, along the lines of "Muslims are Islamists", lack determiners such as "some".  Do you intentionally leave such statements unqualified so as to suggest that "all" Muslims are Islamists?  If that's the case, then I'd say you are "going after" people by making sweeping generalizations.  I'm sure there are a great many self-styled "moderate" Muslims who still feel the seduction of the victim-card, buy into false us-versus-them dilemmas and naively support things like Sharia law.  But these are certainly not "all" Muslims.   


  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #128 - November 19, 2010, 05:49 PM
    He's fond of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #129 - November 19, 2010, 05:57 PM
    I knew there was a name for this fallacy, thanks!
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #130 - November 19, 2010, 07:07 PM
    Even those who do accept that the Quran does encourage violence they actually believe so in SELF-DEFENCE which is obviously going to be a problem for say a nation that enjoys invading and occupying others  whistling2
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #131 - November 19, 2010, 07:48 PM
    Quote from: XxThaminaxX on November 19, 2010, 07:07 PM
    Even those who do accept that the Quran does encourage violence they actually believe so in SELF-DEFENCE which is obviously going to be a problem for say a nation that enjoys invading and occupying others  whistling2

    +1
    Although I find agreeing with you slightly worrying  Cheesy
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #132 - November 19, 2010, 08:01 PM
    Quote from: Telomeme on November 19, 2010, 05:57 PM
    I knew there was a name for this fallacy, thanks!



    Here are some more he's fond of.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converse_accident

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division

    And especially:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_many_questions
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #133 - November 19, 2010, 08:10 PM

    You've got him bang to rights, PS Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #134 - November 19, 2010, 10:44 PM
    DH:  plan

    Why don't we ban all religions.  You can only stay in Britain if you renounce religion altogether.  All religious buildings will be converted into apartments to ease the housing crisis.  If anyone is found practising a religion they will be expelled to some, mostly uninhabited, island somewhere much like criminals were sent to Australia back in the distant past.  That'll get rid of 'em all.  dance 
    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #135 - November 19, 2010, 11:38 PM
    DH isn't even British. He claims to be American. Which makes his "native Brit" remark even funnier.
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #136 - November 19, 2010, 11:41 PM
    WTF?  After all that he isn't even a Brit? LMAO.  Cheesy
    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #137 - November 20, 2010, 12:23 AM
    Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on November 19, 2010, 11:38 PM
    DH isn't even British. He claims to be American. Which makes his "native Brit" remark even funnier.


    Why doesn't he talk about the "Native American" culture and how foreigners shouldn't come in and impose their culture by force? ...... oh wait..... that actually happened with real Native Americans. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #138 - November 20, 2010, 10:33 AM
    Quote from: XxThaminaxX on November 19, 2010, 07:07 PM
    Even those who do accept that the Quran does encourage violence they actually believe so in SELF-DEFENCE which is obviously going to be a problem for say a nation that enjoys invading and occupying others  whistling2


    You mean like the Ottoman Empire?

    And what proportion of people who call themselves "Muslims" would you say "interpret" the violent verses of the Koran in this way? And what about you. What is your personal interpretation of Koranic incitements to violence?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #139 - November 20, 2010, 10:38 AM
    Quote from: Maya
    DH:  plan

    Why don't we ban all religions.  You can only stay in Britain if you renounce religion altogether.  All religious buildings will be converted into apartments to ease the housing crisis.  If anyone is found practising a religion they will be expelled to some, mostly uninhabited, island somewhere much like criminals were sent to Australia back in the distant past.  That'll get rid of 'em all.  dance


    Where have I advocated banning all religions? I don't see a problem with Christianity per se as a do with Islam per se.  BTW, could you please answer my question as to whether you think in the case of a British woman getting pregnant abroad by a foreign born Muslim man, that Muslim man should automatically be allowed British citizenship.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #140 - November 20, 2010, 10:43 AM
    Quote from: deusvult
    Why doesn't he talk about the "Native American" culture and how foreigners shouldn't come in and impose their culture by force?


    And what would you have said to native Americans in what is now the USA who might have expressed misgivings to the increasing influx of foreigners to their shores from the early 17th century onwards? Would you have accused them of "irrationality" "xenophobia"? "Racism" even?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #141 - November 20, 2010, 10:47 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 19, 2010, 07:48 PM
    +1
    Although I find agreeing with you [XxThaminaxX] slightly worrying  slightly worrying  Cheesy


    Doesn't surprise me at all.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #142 - November 20, 2010, 11:25 AM
    Quote
    Doesn't surprise me at all.


    And that doesn't surprise anyone either  Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #143 - November 20, 2010, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: DH on November 20, 2010, 10:33 AM
    You mean like the Ottoman Empire?

    And what proportion of people who call themselves "Muslims" would you say "interpret" the violent verses of the Koran in this way? And what about you. What is your personal interpretation of Koranic incitements to violence?


    It was an imperialist empire. No different to any other empire of the time. The Ottomans like most other Islamic states went on an offensive jihad bcoz they had a caliph. Idk how much interpret the verses in such a way. My personal interpretation is that if someone attacks you then you have every right to attack them and keep attacking them until they either fuck off or lose  Smiley
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #144 - November 20, 2010, 11:57 AM
    Quote from: XxThaminaxX
    My personal interpretation is that if someone attacks you then you have every right to attack them and keep attacking them until they either fuck off or lose


    So you accept that when your "prophet" started attacking their merchant Caravans the pagan Meccans had every right to defend themselves and root out this terrorist cult leader and his followers from their lair in Yathrib and ensure that his attacks ceased?   
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #145 - November 20, 2010, 11:59 AM
    Quote from: DH on November 20, 2010, 10:43 AM
    And what would you have said to native Americans in what is now the USA who might have expressed misgivings to the increasing influx of foreigners to their shores from the early 17th century onwards? Would you have accused them of "irrationality" "xenophobia"? "Racism" even?


    You mean the 'influx of foreigners' who actually came to conquer them and succeeded in almost wiping them out entirely? You mean 'misgivings' as in actually defending themselves in a war? And are you comparing this to immigration?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #146 - November 20, 2010, 12:09 PM
    Quote from: Ishina
    You mean the 'influx of foreigners' who actually came to conquer them and succeeded in almost wiping them out entirely? You mean 'misgivings' as in actually defending themselves in a war?


    When the English had established themselves in sufficient strength in North America they did indeed turn to conquering the natives.  Before that their position was tenuous and often reliant on the natives' goodwill and help..

    There is a lesson in such historical episodes for people with eyes.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #147 - November 20, 2010, 12:13 PM
    So to be clear, you're comparing the conquest of the Americas to immigration?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #148 - November 20, 2010, 12:17 PM
    The conquest of North America started out as "immigration". As long as the European immigrants remained relatively low in numbers and military capacity the natives were relatively safe from them.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: HOW THE (UK) TAXPAYER IS FOOTING THE BILL FOR MILITANT ISLAM
     Reply #149 - November 20, 2010, 12:25 PM
    What are you talking about? America was divided up by the Europeans more or less as soon as it was discovered. By that time, the way newly discovered lands were claimed was methodical and well practiced. It was a bloody conquest from the moment the Spanish set foot there.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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