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 Topic: Why is there something rather than nothing?

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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #30 - November 14, 2010, 09:55 PM
    Quote from: donatelo on November 14, 2010, 07:50 PM
    Coincidence?

    This thread has got me thinking - its a bit wacky but stay with me on this one Wink.  I wonder if the law of conservation applies to something too.  

    If there is something here, then perhaps there is an anti-something outside of this universe.  

    In other words the net entropy something-opy = 0

    But what the hell would an anti-something be like  Cheesy
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #31 - November 14, 2010, 09:59 PM
    Quote from: muddy on November 14, 2010, 09:53 PM
    Only if scientists ever invent a time machine, we would know. But it is absolutely impossible to go 13.8 billion years ago.

    But something certainly did exist 13.8 billion years ago, and even possibly before Huh?  Think you're confusing this with the creation argument.  Its not.  Whether something exists or not has nothing to do with God.  Because either way, God is still something Wink
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #32 - November 14, 2010, 10:19 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on November 14, 2010, 09:48 PM
    But the point still stands, you are assuming that 'nothing' is a possible state. And while you can imagine the possibility, I can't. Maybe it isn't a possible state, maybe there exists 'something' because there's no alternative.

    Why are you assuming it isnt a possible state in your argument? And then paradoxically you use the word 'maybe' in your last sentence?  Please confirm your position so I can reply to whatever point you are making.
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #33 - November 14, 2010, 10:24 PM
    I'm not making a positive claim, I have no reason to believe it is a possible state. Partly because it's not a concept I can comprehend, and partly because I see no evidence of its 'existence'. This leads me to conclude that it likely isn't a posibility, hence the existence of 'something' may well be a neccesity.

    I use the word maybe because of the impossibility of proving a negative... kinda like the way I'm technically agnostic-atheist even though I consider the probability of an intelligent creator's existence to be 0...
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #34 - November 14, 2010, 10:59 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on November 14, 2010, 10:24 PM
    I'm not making a positive claim


    I thought you were saying you believe only "something" could exist

    Quote
    I have no reason to believe it is a possible state.

     
    Neither do I, but then again I have no reason to believe God exists.  But I acknowledge its a possibility.

    Do you acknowledge its a possiblity that nothing could exist?  If yes, then you could attempt to answer the OP.  If not, then please explain why.  (btw my answer is Yes & Dont know)
    Quote
    Partly because it's not a concept I can comprehend, and partly because I see no evidence of its 'existence'.

     
    I am not saying it exists -  in fact I know it doesnt.  
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #35 - November 14, 2010, 11:34 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 14, 2010, 10:59 PM
    I thought you were saying you believe only "something" could exist


    I only know of one state (something) that definitely exists, or can exist. I don't know of any other states that could possibly exist. So that's why I say that MAYBE 'something' is the only possible state. I can't say for definite because its a bitch trying to prove a negative.
     
    Quote
    Neither do I, but then again I have no reason to believe God exists.  But I acknowledge its a possibility.


    Like I said, technically I'm agnostic-atheist, but only because I cannot know that God doesn't exist. But there too I see no way how he could, so why should I consider the possibilty?

    Quote
    Do you acknowledge its a possiblity that nothing could exist?  If yes, then you could attempt to answer the OP.  If not, then please explain why.  (btw my answer is Yes & Dont know)  


    I don't acknowledge its possibility because I cannot fathom its possible existence. If I were to deem it possible, in effect I would be saying that there isn't anything that is impossible. Rendering the word 'possible' meaningless. A word X is only useful if there exists things that are not X.
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #36 - November 14, 2010, 11:47 PM
    It is unfortunate that there seems to be this fallacy when determining the cause of something to look to its past. This is an unneccesary means of determining the cause of anything.
    Take for example a stone of a certain shape that collides with another object and its shape changes. Now, there are two ways one can determine the cause of the change of shape of the stone. First of all, you can chart the progress of the stone through time and attempt to show that the stone has undergone changes because of its interaction with other objects through the passage of time.
    Secondly, you can take the physical constitution of the stone, develop a complete model of the various elements that make up the stone in their various configurations and come to the shape of the stone that way.
    Now, it is obvious to see that you don't need both methods to know the cause of the stone, to ask for both is to overdetermine the causation of the stone. And, seeing as Hume has effectively reduced the first method to a paradox, the only thing we need to know about the stone is its physical constitution right now to see what it is right now, not what has happened to it through the passage of time.

    Similarly, it is unneccesary to look back in time to try and figure a cause for this "something" that exists now, what needs to be explained is not the first cause in time but the actual constitution of everything that is right now.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #37 - November 14, 2010, 11:57 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on November 14, 2010, 11:34 PM
    Like I said, technically I'm agnostic-atheist, but only because I cannot know that God doesn't exist. But there too I see no way how he could, so why should I consider the possibilty?

    I don't acknowledge its possibility because I cannot fathom its possible existence. If I were to deem it possible, in effect I would be saying that there isn't anything that is impossible. Rendering the word 'possible' meaningless. A word X is only useful if there exists things that are not X.

    Whats your position on what exists outside of this universe? To those that say nothing, would you again say that this is impossible?
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #38 - November 15, 2010, 12:01 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 14, 2010, 11:57 PM
    Whats your position on what exists outside of this universe?


    I think the question is meaningless. I can't make sense of 'outside' (which is a position) without space. What happened before time existed?
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #39 - November 15, 2010, 12:05 AM
    Quote from: z10 on November 14, 2010, 11:47 PM
    It is unfortunate that there seems to be this fallacy when determining the cause of something to look to its past. This is an unneccesary means of determining the cause of anything. ..

    Think you are talking about first cause which isnt the same question.  Whether there is a first cause or not, it still wouldnt answer the question.
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #40 - November 15, 2010, 12:13 AM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on November 15, 2010, 12:01 AM
    I think the question is meaningless. I can't make sense of 'outside' (which is a position) without space. What happened before time existed?

    What happened?  I dont know.  But both these solutions seem to make sense to me

    i) nothing   Wink
    ii) time has existed for eternity, t=0 is a concept to help scientists to understand our current framework/limits of knowledge

    I dont know how you can be intellectually satisfied by your position, but as long as you are then thats cool  cool2

    Gotta hit the sack now, till tmrw my friends ...zzzzz
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #41 - November 15, 2010, 12:23 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 15, 2010, 12:13 AM

    time has existed for eternity


    Exactly, so the question is meaningless. It's the same with trying to comprehend a position without the concept of space.

    Quote
    I dont know how you can be intellectually satisfied by your position



    Which bit in particular?
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #42 - November 15, 2010, 09:42 AM
    Quote
    Which bit in particular?

    The mental ease with which you dismiss questions as meaningless., as you appear to do the same with what happened before time or what exists outside of this universe.

    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on November 15, 2010, 12:23 AM
    Exactly, so the question is meaningless.

    Not really, I gave 2 answers and did not say simply dismiss the question as meaningless.  Also the other answer I gave was 'nothing', so the question is not meaningless.

    Quote
    It's the same with trying to comprehend a position without the concept of space.

    I dont think they are the similar in this sense, because time has no opposite whereas for something we have nothing.  

    So asking what the opposite of something that has no opposites is difficult (although still cannot be just dismissed as meaningless).  However I can see where you are coming from & it certainly is difficult to comprehend a position without space.

    As opposed to time there  some elements  of 'something' we can envisage a position without it.  Think of what you were before you were born, what the internet was in the year 1000 A.D - they didnt exist, they were nothing.  Now if you apply this concept to everything, then we have the totality of nothing.  Hopefully you can envisage this position, at least theoretically, a bit better now.

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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #43 - November 15, 2010, 10:20 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 15, 2010, 09:42 AM
    The mental ease with which you dismiss questions as meaningless., as you appear to do the same with what happened before time or what exists outside of this universe.


    My understanding of the concepts renders the questions nonsensical.

    Quote
    I dont think they are the similar in this sense, because time has no opposite whereas for something we have nothing. 


    Nothing isn't the opposite of something, it's the absence of it.

    Quote
    So asking what the opposite of something that has not opposite is difficult (although still cannot be just dismissed as meaningless).  However I can see where you are coming from & it certainly is difficult to comprehend a position without space.


    I find it impossible. Maybe you are just a lot smarter than me. Tongue

    Quote
    As opposed to time there  some elements  of 'something' we can envisage a position without it.  Think of what you were before you were born, what the internet was in the year 1000 A.D - they didnt exist, they were nothing.  Now if you apply this concept to everything, then we have the totality of nothing.  Hopefully you can envisage this position, at least theoretically, a bit better now.



    Sure I can understand what are you trying to describe and why it would lead you to make a certain conclusion, but envisioning it is something else. Much like I can work out that 248820/319=780. But I cannot imagine 248820 being divided into 319 parts. I understand what you mean by 'nothing', but I cannot envisage it, 'something' always gets in the way. In the same way, I think perhaps in the real world 'nothing' can't exist because 'something' is an attention whore.  Maybe something HAS to exist because there are no other stable states. And I really don't see the point of debating why a concept that I can't comprehend, and whose existence there is no proof of, hasn't manifested itself in the world.
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #44 - November 15, 2010, 04:50 PM
    A vacuum, technically isn't nothing either.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #45 - November 15, 2010, 05:27 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on November 15, 2010, 10:20 AM
    My understanding of the concepts renders the questions nonsensical.

    Let me get this straight, just to confirm your answer to the question (please edit as necessary)  "why wasnt the original default state nothing?" is "it's a meaningless question because I cant understand nothing, therefore 'something' is the default state"

    Fair enough, but like I said, if I were to answer it in this way I would not be intellectually satisfied and sometime in the future I would again ask myself the very same question until I felt a bit better about the answer. 

    However bizarre the the concept, I currently find the theoretical existence of an anti-something as I mentioned earlier  more satisfying.  By ending the question, you stop the question and cull the potential for further exploration into other possibilites.

    Before gravity was understood, there were people saying that the earth must be on top of pillars because they could not envisage a situation where the earth could be suspended in sky without anything to hold it.
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #46 - November 15, 2010, 05:29 PM
    How can there be anti-something? Isn't that like saying there is anti-mass?
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #47 - November 15, 2010, 05:29 PM
    I was referring to the time/space questions....
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #48 - November 15, 2010, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on November 15, 2010, 05:29 PM
    How can there be anti-something? Isn't that like saying there is anti-mass?

    I am struggling to understand it too, its just an amorphous concept to allow me to address OP question within the context of something similar to the laws of conservation. (see my earlier post where I first mentioned it)
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #49 - November 15, 2010, 05:48 PM
    I see what you're saying so you think there is anti-energy as well?

    From my understanding, the laws of conversation are violated at a quantum level.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #50 - November 15, 2010, 05:51 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on November 15, 2010, 05:48 PM
    I see what you're saying so you think there is anti-energy as well?

    From my understanding, the laws of conversation are violated at a quantum level.

    You're better off asking AbuY questions like this other than me.  btw where the hell is he when you need him?
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #51 - November 15, 2010, 05:54 PM
    I could just look it up but I'm too lazy. Hopefully AbuY stumbles upon this thread.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #52 - November 15, 2010, 06:19 PM
    "Nothingness" is a concept that we humans have developed but, we can't really imagine the state when there is just nothing.

    So, Is it a right question to ask i mean? when we can't even imagine the state of "Nothingness".. remember black background/white background is not "nothingness", there is a background with a color at-least..

    If it is about the root cause of all the causes, then why should there be a root, why can't it be something totally different then we are expecting..

    My point is that we are just indulging in a activity of using a concept "non-existence" over an entity "everything", now here one can very legitimately raise the question that why we think, it's the right use of a "concept for a category"..
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #53 - November 15, 2010, 08:18 PM
    Mateen. that was an epic post. I think this answers the question most correctly.
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #54 - November 15, 2010, 08:27 PM
    Quote from: mateen on November 15, 2010, 06:19 PM
    "Nothingness" is a concept that we humans have developed but, we can't really imagine the state when there is just nothing.

    So, Is it a right question to ask i mean? when we can't even imagine the state of "Nothingness".. remember black background/white background is not "nothingness", there is a background with a color at-least..


    Thats because it does not exist - but just because you havent seen or experienced something, then it does not mean its not possible for it to exist.

    Quote
    If it is about the root cause of all the causes, then why should there be a root, why can't it be something totally different then we are expecting..

    My point is that we are just indulging in a activity of using a concept "non-existence" over an entity "everything", now here one can very legitimately raise the question that why we think, it's the right use of a "concept for a category"..

    No, thats a different question as explained earlier
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #55 - November 15, 2010, 10:34 PM
    Yeah Islame, but is "nothing" really "nothing"?
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #56 - November 15, 2010, 10:36 PM
    I think it essentialy comes down to whether you consider the contemplation of the existence of 'nothing' a worthwhile (and possible) endeavour.
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #57 - November 15, 2010, 10:58 PM
    Quote from: abzm94 on November 15, 2010, 10:34 PM
    Yeah Islame, but is "nothing" really "nothing"?


    Depends on the context in which it is used - if I say I have nothing in my pocket, then no, because I obviously have air & space in my pocket.  In the context of this thread, then nothing really does mean nothing.
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #58 - November 16, 2010, 11:28 AM
    Yeah, I see where you're coming from; but nothing can just be a humane word.

    Imagine nothing can not simply exist. Imagine we have tiny particles that exists, and will always exists.

    We humans can't really understand the scope of nothing, as we have not evolved to fully understand our universe fully imo.

    Get's you thinking though  cool2
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #59 - November 17, 2010, 08:25 PM
    I think nothingness by it's very nature isn't anything just as somethingness is by it's very nature everything....even the nothingness that's introduced into the  somethingness is actually something in perpetual annihilation of itself...ha! So nothingness, just as it can't be anything it also can't be an alternative state to being. What is the nature of being? It's something. Nothingness as a hypothetical state of being is only introduced when self aware matter comes to the realization that it  itself began at some point and will end at some point. So maybe were just projecting here...
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