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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion on freewill with friends.

 (Read 22943 times)
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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #60 - November 15, 2010, 08:43 PM

     banghead

    Which bit is confusing you?
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #61 - November 15, 2010, 08:47 PM

    dont worry...

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #62 - November 15, 2010, 08:49 PM

    Lol. But I do. If you're going to attempt to reconcile free will with god's omniscience, don't you think you should know what it actually is?
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #63 - November 15, 2010, 09:00 PM

    Lol. But I do. If you're going to attempt to reconcile free will with god's omniscience, don't you think you should know what it actually is?

    That is the starting point of any discussion, but was pretty much taken as read.    I think we were all pretty much on the same page as to what the basics of what free-will was, so we moved on from there.

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #64 - November 15, 2010, 09:37 PM

    Well explain to me what it is then....

    Let me put it this way.

    Islam has the idea of punishment (and, crucially, not just for rehabilitation or maintening the health of a larger system, but for meting out just deserts). This necessitates that the entity that is being punished is responsible for its actions. Islam justifies this belief (that our soul, we, is responsible) by citing 'free will'. But what exactly is it?

    Actions, events in general, can occur only as a result of a cause or chance (or a mix of the two - thought I would argue that makes it 2 seperate events.) Unless I've missed something (and our resident philosopher chic says I haven't), there is no other option. If the event that is being judged, has a cause, then the responsibility lies with the instigator. If it doesn't, if its a random event, then you cannot apportion blame (except to the event itself...). Now you will say that the cause could be something instigated by the soul/human, in which case he is to blame. But that action/event/thought too must have a cause. An so on and so forth. The only way to break the chain is to cite an uncaused cause, an act of chance, in which case, again, no blame can be apportioned (except to the uncaused cause of course, which certainly isn't man. Note that the actual event that comes into being - and manifests itself in his will - isn't him either.).

    Hence, man cannot be held responsible for his actions, he is not an uncaused cause - that must either be God or a chance event. Looking at it this way, it's clear that the only thing that accounts for events caused by beings is will, and only will. (Of course you could easily argue that in this sense 'will' isn't any different to any other occurence in nature, as Schopenhauer did). Our will is manifested due to cause (ultimately due to the prime cause that started that particular chain) and chance. And we are neither. How do you go from here, to 'free will'. To something for which god can hold us responsible for, considering that we are not uncaused causes.

    Hope that clears it up...
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #65 - November 15, 2010, 09:50 PM

    In a nutshell are you saying according to Islam, man cannot be held responsible for his actions because Allah created our genes & our environment.  If so, I agree. 

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #66 - November 15, 2010, 10:31 PM

    Allah or any other uncaused cause.  Smiley

    And why, exactly, do you agree? Because they influence all our experiences, or because they determine them?
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #67 - November 15, 2010, 11:04 PM

    And why, exactly, do you agree? Because they influence all our experiences, or because they determine them?

    I would go as far as to say that they determine them, I believe humans are simply factors of their biology & environment

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #68 - November 15, 2010, 11:14 PM

    So can you see how free will could possibly exist (in humans)?
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #69 - November 15, 2010, 11:18 PM

    Yes, I think free-will is a more meaningful concept as an atheist.

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #70 - November 15, 2010, 11:24 PM

    How could it? (I'm talking about free will in the Muslim sense)
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #71 - November 15, 2010, 11:34 PM

    My, you ask a lot of questions!  But no, I dont think that it does.

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #72 - November 15, 2010, 11:36 PM

    Could it? (Not 'does it?')
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #73 - November 15, 2010, 11:40 PM

    I suppose it could if we believe souls or our consciousness are not linked to our DNA

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #74 - November 15, 2010, 11:45 PM

    How could it... the reasoning in reply #64 applies to all events. Where is the hole in the argument? :/
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #75 - November 16, 2010, 12:16 AM

    Not sure if Ive understood repy 64 correctly, but I was talking about the concept of a random soul that Allah has no control over. 

    It makes independent decisions based upon whether it was concerned with itself, or concerned towards others (including Allah). And this is how you would ultimately be judged.

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #76 - November 16, 2010, 06:35 AM

    A Muslim is someone who "submits" to the Will of Allah.

    I as a non-Muslim, am acting on Will that is free of Allah's.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #77 - November 16, 2010, 05:11 PM

    It's a paradox whichever way one looks at it. Hence the reason why the Muslim accepts it as a paradox and simply moves on. It's a kind of compatibilist position. There was a debate early on in Islamic history between the Qadaria and Jabaria. One of them adopted a libertarian position and the other a pure hard determinist position. To counter this the Ashari's and Mathuridi's took up the gauntlet and adopted a compatibilist position, which is the orthodox position and is the one that Muslims generally stick to.


    But even if we accept compatibilism we have to deny deep freedom, and it's deep freedom that is necessary for responsibility.

    I think you have mentioned this incompatibility between God's omniscience and free will before and I dismissed it as mere playing with words, but I have only just realized the force of it now, so thank you.

    And good to see you back. Smiley

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #78 - November 17, 2010, 09:23 PM

    Not sure if Ive understood repy 64 correctly, but I was talking about the concept of a random soul that Allah has no control over.  

    It makes independent decisions based upon whether it was concerned with itself, or concerned towards others (including Allah). And this is how you would ultimately be judged.


    You are still thinking on too large a scale. Think of the smallest, most fundamental, events/interactions (or experiences as some people would say). Each entity cannot make independent decisionS, because a truly independent decision has to be random. Randomness has to be completely free of influence (though I wouldn't say unconstrained). Rolling a dice isn't random. Hence any random enitity makes one choice, any choice further along the particular group of events cannot be influenced by the first random entity. You could, I suppose, argue that our souls are the first random entity in our existence, but then they cannot be responsible for any (true) choices made later in our lives. If there are no more choices to be made in our lives, and everything we do is a result of that first event, in effect they are doomed by a single,uncontrollable (though again, I wouldn't say unconfined), random decision made at their birth. Rendering the idea of our souls exercising free will during our lives nonsensical.

    When looked at this way it becomes apparent that all (caused) events have a will. A ball being dropped has a will to reach to the ground. Will cannot be acted against, it is just causality. For a being to have free will (or more accurately, imo, to be free of will), it has to be uncaused, uninfluenced, random - and it must only be a single event/interaction/experience. We are, very clearly, a collection of such interactions.

    The problem, as ever, seems to be conciousness. A sense of self, that encompasses more than one event. I'd love to know how it arised, how our brains managed to build a me/not-me boundary, or an object/not-object view. (I think now, more than ever, I can relate to the idea that everything is concious, and our sense of self is just an illusion. Though I'm not yet convinced.)

    Our brains naturally attempt to assign agency to events (I think it's obvious how that evolved, no?). And when it became more prudent to assume an intelligent agent, our god-inventing abilities began to take shape. Natural selection would surely have favoured organisms that assumed the rustling in the trees was a predator, or a competitor, rather than, say, wind. (Somewhere down the line, when it became natural to assume a particularly complex event was due to another human, we began to invent man-gods to explain natural phenomena.) I think this is, in part, responsible for why religionists assign responsibilty (ultimate responsibility - that is, free [of] will responsibility) to people for their actions/will. When they are actually a collection of caused events/beings with a will(s).
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #79 - November 17, 2010, 11:56 PM

    Good to see Hassan is watching from up above, and keeping an eye on our progress  Old geezer

    Anyhow he wanted me to post this on his behalf..

    Quote from: Hassan
    I don't believe there is such a thing as freewill. At best it can only be argued it exists in a very limited form. But the real problem with the freewill argument for me is that in the Abrahamic religions it forms the basis of reward and punishment in an afterlife. The choices we make are so heavily influenced by factors beyond our control (down to the tiniest detail of the wiring of our brains and the circumstances that affect our behaviour) that it is totally unjust for the one who determined these factors to then hold his creation as entirely responsible for their choices - even less, of course, to torture him eternally in an after life for them.

    Of course we must punish and reward in the context of human existence in order to maintain things like Law and Order and to protect people or rehabilitate them etc...

    But in the context of reward and punishment in an afterlife by the God who determined the overwhelming factors that caused a person to make the choices he did - it makes no sense at all.


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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #80 - November 18, 2010, 12:11 AM

    Quote from: Hassan

    Of course we must punish and reward in the context of human existence in order to maintain things like Law and Order and to protect people or rehabilitate them etc...



    I think the point here is to ensure law and order is only about maintaining the health and welfare of society, rather than about meting out just deserts. Punish the criminal to the extent that his non-punishment is detrimental to society. You are responsible for you actions insofar as is it YOU that commit them, you hands, your brain etc but you are not ultimately responsible for them. So punishment for the health of the larger system can be justified I think, but not for vengeance (because they 'deserve' it). Not for humans.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #81 - November 18, 2010, 12:18 AM

    From a scientific perspective the way I understood it was that according to classical physics (pre-quantum mechanics), free will certainly does appear to be an illusion. However our universe is a quantum universe not a classical universe - the quantum world is the reality of our universe. According to the original (and perhaps the least contrived) interpretation of the theory, the universe is non-deterministic i.e. even if you knew everything about a particle or particles at a given moment in time there would be no way of predicting everything about the properties of those particles in the future (this is related to the copenhagen interpretation proposed by the pioneers of the theory such as Neils Bohr, Werner Heisenberg and Wolfgang Pauli). What I find even stranger however is that the copenhagen interpreation proposes that the act of concious observation is an integral element of quantum mechanics - the observations we make shape the universe we inhabit (i.e. the idea that observation causes wavefunction collapse). An even more stranger question is whether the act of concious observation is limited to human observation, observations from other animals, ameobas, or even all matter (if we propose that all matter is concious) - there appears to be know way of answering this question to give a conclusive answer - but as far as I am aware the pioneers of the theory (Bohr, Heisenberg etc.) always talked as though it was human observation that was relevant when discussing wavefunction collapse in QM.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #82 - November 18, 2010, 12:24 AM

    Yes, from QM indeterminacy it seems to follow that every particle has a sort of free will.

    And, as I said, I can now, more than ever, relate to the idea that everything which really exists is concious. What are your thoughts on that?
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #83 - November 18, 2010, 12:25 AM

    (i.e. the idea that observation causes wavefunction collapse).

    I cant see how observation can cause actual physical laws to collapse QM.  I think we are just waiting for a single unified theory, which will explain this phenomenon.  Although I can see how your post could make sense given our current scientific juxtaposition.

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #84 - November 18, 2010, 12:30 AM




    And, as I said, I can now, more than ever, relate to the idea that everything which really exists is concious. What are your thoughts on that?


    of course it's possible - that's why Allah says in the Qur'an that he offered the task first to the mountains etc.


    hehe

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #85 - November 18, 2010, 12:31 AM

    And, as I said, I can now, more than ever, relate to the idea that everything which really exists is concious.

    Sounds like quackery to me.  Can you explain what you mean by 'conscious' - are you saying the particle fibres in my socks are aware?

    I'd also like to know what z10 thoughts on particle consciousness is..

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #86 - November 18, 2010, 12:33 AM

    I don't use concious in the sense that an organism is self aware. I think thats a different concept. Everything is concious, as in a single objective reality doesn't exist.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #87 - November 18, 2010, 12:34 AM

    ..

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #88 - November 18, 2010, 12:34 AM

    Sorry, silly browser. Edited. Tongue
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #89 - November 18, 2010, 12:35 AM

    .


    Spot on  Afro

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