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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Price of Bread

 (Read 20120 times)
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  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #30 - November 28, 2010, 08:00 PM
    well a negative belief like atheism or anti - Islam ( in the sense of proving Islam wrong, not the bigotry) have a very hard time forming a structure or cohesive organization because there is only one thing that unites us while we come from hugely different political and social viewpoints.  In that sense we can't produce an organization or structure to rival religion, it can't happen.  What we can create though is the building blocks for people to build their own structures that will compare to religion in building social connections, goals for a fulfilled life and achievement. What we can do is sharpen our rhetorical weapons, our persuasive skills, and if it needs be with actual physical defense. We do it here already by providing a forum for open discussion, and if there are any Muslims reading this I invite them to register and post.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #31 - November 28, 2010, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on November 28, 2010, 08:00 PM
    well a negative belief like atheism or anti - Islam ( in the sense of proving Islam wrong, not the bigotry) have a very hard time forming a structure or cohesive organization because there is only one thing that unites us while we come from hugely different political and social viewpoints.  In that sense we can't produce an organization or structure to rival religion, it can't happen.  

    Why not - we have humanism?  Ive never heard anyone on this site have a problem with humanism.  In fact its the British Humanist Association that sponsor this organisation.

    Quote
    What we can create though is the building blocks for people to build their own structures that will compare to religion in building social connections, goals for a fulfilled life and achievement. What we can do is sharpen our rhetorical weapons, our persuasive skills, and if it needs be with actual physical defense. We do it here already by providing a forum for open discussion, and if there are any Muslims reading this I invite them to register and post.  

    +1
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  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #32 - November 28, 2010, 08:46 PM
    Well humanism is a "positive" belief in that it posits ideas and beliefs and sets (pretty broad) goals, so it can. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #33 - November 28, 2010, 09:13 PM
    I think its the only thing that unites us all  Smiley
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  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #34 - November 28, 2010, 09:19 PM
    Well I wouldn't call atheism a negative belief either.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #35 - November 28, 2010, 09:56 PM
    Perhaps not, but atheism says nothing about your ethical/ philosophical / moral outlook
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  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #36 - November 28, 2010, 10:07 PM
    I would argue differently.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #37 - November 28, 2010, 10:10 PM
    how?
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  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #38 - November 28, 2010, 10:41 PM
    First of all atheism doesn't mean that one doesn't believe in god. Atheism in the sense of deciding not to believe in god or to rebel against god is a (pathetic) stance of those who long for god but cannot find it.

    A true atheist does not choose atheism because for a true atheist the question itself is completely irrelevant - god/divine is irrelevant, it simply doesn't figure on the scale. Hence for a true atheist the existence/non-existence of god is a non-question. It doesn't matter if there is or isn't god. To a true atheist that makes no difference at all. Because behaviour of a true atheist would not change in regards to the existence of divine; if it would that would indicate that such "atheist" actually needs a god. Here one cannot choose atheism because the choice itself is located within the filed of belief.

    Because god is irrelevant the is effectively no big other one can rely on, there is nobody one can address in prayer, there is nobody to judge us, there is nobody out there to hear our pleads - we are on our own. Hence atheism is a prerequisite to true moral virtue - the fact that one is not afraid of Hell nor one seeks the pleasures of Heaven. One simply does the right thing because it’s the right thing to do - this is a proper atheist stance.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #39 - November 28, 2010, 10:45 PM
    Kenan, I play with myself while reading your posts.

    (No homo)
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #40 - November 28, 2010, 10:47 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on November 28, 2010, 10:41 PM
    First of all atheism doesn't mean that one doesn't believe in god. Atheism in the sense of deciding not to believe in god or to rebel against god is a (pathetic) stance of those who long for god but cannot find it.

    A true atheist does not choose atheism because for a true atheist the question itself is completely irrelevant - god/divine is irrelevant, it simply doesn't figure on the scale. Hence for a true atheist the existence/non-existence of god is a non-question. It doesn't matter if there is or isn't god. To a true atheist that makes no difference at all. Because behaviour of a true atheist would not change in regards to the existence of divine; if it would that would that such "atheist" actually needs a god. Here one cannot choose atheism because the choice itself is located within the filed of belief.

    Because god is irrelevant the is effectively no big other one can rely on, there is nobody one can address in prayer, there is nobody to judge us, there is nobody out there to hear our pleads - we are on our own. Hence atheism is a prerequisite to true moral virtue - the fact that one is not afraid of Hell nor one seeks the pleasures of Heaven. One simply does the right thing because it’s the right thing to do - this is a proper atheist stance.

    still nothing to do with your ethical/ philosophical / moral outlook
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  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #41 - November 28, 2010, 11:04 PM
    As I already mentioned in my previous post my moral/ethical/philosophical outlook is fundamentally defined by the implications of the fact that there is no god.

    @Prince Spinoza
    *blushes* It's really sweet of you to say that.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #42 - November 28, 2010, 11:05 PM
    oh shit


    I forgot "no homo"
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #43 - November 28, 2010, 11:14 PM
    That was a minute later. Homo.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #44 - November 28, 2010, 11:24 PM
    Like you said: "I am not ashamed of who I am."

  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #45 - November 28, 2010, 11:35 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on November 28, 2010, 11:04 PM
    As I already mentioned in my previous post my moral/ethical/philosophical outlook is fundamentally defined by the implications of the fact that there is no god.

    I realise that, it only tells you how you come to conclusions but not what they are.

    Nor are those implications defined by atheism - all it says is that you dont necessarily follow any rules defined by religion/God
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #46 - November 29, 2010, 12:40 AM
    Kenan tried to touch my bum when I was at his house.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #47 - November 29, 2010, 01:37 AM
    he did it because atheists believe in butt touching and anal sex.  The homosexual kind.  It is right there in their book. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #48 - November 29, 2010, 03:46 AM
    Amusing.

    You yourselves used to be scared shit of "Allah". Not that Allah ever directly spoke to you, or you were aware of its presence through perception. But... from just the verses of the Quran... which are merely words... on a page... in a book... written a long time ago... for which you had no previous knowledge about regarding its exact composition/compilation untill your infidelity prompoted you to research further...

    You used to have these verses recited by some pumped up stranger, pathetically and hopelessly calling out up to his sky fairy, blasted into your ears and faithfully prostrating to them. Letting them drown out every sense of self-worth and sensibility in you.

    You used to struggle apostasy and blasphemy. You used shiver to the speeches of some fervent Sheikh.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb5kStuMpFA

    And slowly you got yourself free from this. Bringing yourselves into infidelity not through your own strong individuality and independent thinking but rather accepting the words of personalities you yourselves sought because they agreed with your (then unstable and weak)  way of thinking and fed it to you in a more elaborate, intelligent and flamboyant manner convincing you more so of the position of world view which you had a preference over for yourself. They eased you in your infidelity because you felt lonely and outcasted. You needed someone, a personality you looked up to, to validate your way of thinking. Someone who could take on what you needed to debunk but you couldn't manage to yourself, on a public arena in full measure head on. Directly countering and putting into unease the adherents of those who believed in what had been impressed upon you menacingly.

    Consciously avoiding your unbearable and bitter past. Disassociating from individuals that remind you of them. Evading all things Islamic.

    Abrahamic religions are big on "religious people-ism" in a groupy and conforming sort of a way. And its not about searching for and abiding by truths. But rather aggression and oppression perfected by crafting and posing fantasy as truth.

    You, just like them, are a cog in the machine. Only you are less cowardly and more intelligent.

    They are a people domesticated to what they cannot see. And you want to serve as an alternative to that. Dream on.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #49 - November 29, 2010, 04:08 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 27, 2010, 10:31 PM
    This site is a gem and we should all be very proud of it.

    But we need more RL support.

    Yes I personally rather a bitter truth than a comfort blanket.

    But most prefer a comfort blanket and want to take care of their family have a good job, the support of a large community and someone to love.

    We need to provide what religion provides - without the bullshit!  grin12


    and all this is what fuels Abrahamic religions. Not everyone are good a human as you.

    people suck they need bullshit to be nice in the first place themselves.

    - They need a deity that drills and grinds them for them to be disciplined. They need to feel guilty, they need to be scolded for

    - "His spiritual identity is the same as mine, therefore he resembles me, therefore because of this I shall be nice to him"

    - humans do need a deity to act morally, ten commandments, sure we laugh at it now, but why do you think they were made up in the first place?
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #50 - November 29, 2010, 05:49 AM
    wut
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #51 - November 29, 2010, 06:01 AM
    Quote from: Logical_Mind44 on November 29, 2010, 03:46 AM
    Amusing.

    You yourselves used to be scared shit of "Allah". Not that Allah ever directly spoke to you, or you were aware of its presence through perception. But... from just the verses of the Quran... which are merely words... on a page... in a book... written a long time ago... for which you had no previous knowledge about regarding its exact composition/compilation untill your infidelity prompoted you to research further...


    no

    Quote
    You used to have these verses recited by some pumped up stranger, pathetically and hopelessly calling out up to his sky fairy, blasted into your ears and faithfully prostrating to them. Letting them drown out every sense of self-worth and sensibility in you.

    You used to struggle apostasy and blasphemy. You used shiver to the speeches of some fervent Sheikh.

     

    no

    Quote
    And slowly you got yourself free from this. Bringing yourselves into infidelity not through your own strong individuality and independent thinking but rather accepting the words of personalities you yourselves sought because they agreed with your (then unstable and weak)  way of thinking and fed it to you in a more elaborate, intelligent and flamboyant manner convincing you more so of the position of world view which you had a preference over for yourself. They eased you in your infidelity because you felt lonely and outcasted. You needed someone, a personality you looked up to, to validate your way of thinking. Someone who could take on what you needed to debunk but you couldn't manage to yourself, on a public arena in full measure head on. Directly countering and putting into unease the adherents of those who believed in what had been impressed upon you menacingly.

    Consciously avoiding your unbearable and bitter past. Disassociating from individuals that remind you of them. Evading all things Islamic.


    no

    Quote
    Abrahamic religions are big on "religious people-ism" in a groupy and conforming sort of a way. And its not about searching for and abiding by truths. But rather aggression and oppression perfected by crafting and posing fantasy as truth.

    You, just like them, are a cog in the machine. Only you are less cowardly and more intelligent.

    They are a people domesticated to what they cannot see. And you want to serve as an alternative to that. Dream on.


    no

    Try again.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #52 - November 29, 2010, 06:04 AM
    Quote from: Logical_Mind44 on November 29, 2010, 04:08 AM

    - humans do need a deity to act morally,


    and no, just no.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #53 - November 29, 2010, 07:20 AM
    I was just going through the posts on the thread again and I think Ishina just nailed it, and hard... beautifully  001_wub



    Any type of morality delivered to you which you must accept wholeheartedly, fully without questioning is pseudo-morality. It backfires on the person who says "well you need this for you to be moral".

    However

    People as in the average human need a deity for their morality.

    Not many can do without, naturally. Everyone strongly require or are influenced by others. If we are all moral and discipline on our own... this world would be different.

    Most people are dependent and conforming(more like bendover actually).

    They are not independent thinkers who value and utilize rationality or have self-control. They need psychological manipulation. They need a personality that mind fucks them.

    Abrahamic religions expertise in this. Hammering down on their skulls and knocking them out.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #54 - November 29, 2010, 07:42 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on November 28, 2010, 04:27 PM
    These things should not be under the control of or influenced by religion anyway, certainly not the Abrahamic faiths. Such religious institutions and the doctrine they are built on nurture the atmosphere of fear, distrust, blind obedience, and the demonising of dissent, of which all the religious atrocities great and small are just a symptom. They need this atmosphere to survive, to perpetuate the dogma - dogma that simultaneously creates and relies upon faith. Its an endless cycle of faith > dogma > faith > dogma. Its not benign. Schools of thought like this allow insane political ideas and proposals to gain adherents amongst the ignorant and irrational masses they have had a direct hand in creating. It allows primative customs and commandments to be imposed and made law in a society - unfair inheritance and gender/racial/sexuality apartheid at best, zealous and ritualised murder for imaginary and victimless crimes at worse - in turn, fuelling the machine, keeping the pyramid scheme healthy and the anointed in positions of power and influence where they can get away with all kinds of grubby bullshit.

    These institutions are unfit wardens of the universal life skills they falsely claim responsibility and expect praise for, held at bay from their true nature only by the secular values and systems that they obey because they have to, and not necessarily because they want to.


    I just love the way she talks and her attitude!

    You just can't bullshit with this girl. You just can't.

    Such stubbornness...
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #55 - November 29, 2010, 08:52 AM
    I agree with all you say, 44, except the deity word.  Substitute 'authority' and you've got it.  I mean, there have, through the ages, been authorities who have coerced, ordered, threatened and cajoled whole empires into ditching one or more deities and accepting another, until we've just ended up with the one 'authority' sanctioned deity.  It still boils down to the Alpha Male effect, I'm afraid.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #56 - November 29, 2010, 12:05 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 28, 2010, 11:35 PM
    I realise that, it only tells you how you come to conclusions but not what they are.

    Nor are those implications defined by atheism - all it says is that you dont necessarily follow any rules defined by religion/God

    The judgement is always yours and yours alone - it's individual. It does not belong to an external factor. Hence there aren't any pre-set rules.

    Atheism simply provides a framework for true morality. The rest is up to us. I don't think that it gets any more radical than that.

    Quote from: Logical_Mind44 on November 29, 2010, 03:46 AM
    Amusing.

    You yourselves used to be scared shit of "Allah".

    Wrong. Many of "us" never ever entertained the idea of a personal god in the first place.

    And would it surprise you greatly if I was to say that I consider atheism proper to be one of the forms of true "worship"?

    Quote from: Logical_Mind44 on November 29, 2010, 04:08 AM
    - humans do need a deity to act morally, ten commandments, sure we laugh at it now, but why do you think they were made up in the first place?

    ^This is logically inconsistent.

    It's not only that humans do not need a deity to act morally. With a deity (personal god in a superego sense) humans cannot act morally.

    Quote from: Hassan on November 29, 2010, 12:40 AM
    Kenan tried to touch my bum when I was at his house.

     whistling2

    I assure you - it was purely platonic.


  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #57 - November 29, 2010, 02:57 PM
    I actually agree in general with Kenan. He used to sometimes say to me that he worships god by being an atheist - I wasn't sure how serious he was at the time, but these days I think I get what he meant. We can only be truly moral and make true progress if we ignore God or the concept of God, particularly since if God does exist then it appears that he has left us to it - we only have each other, nature, science and philosophical thought. It's up to us to better ourselves, to further knowledge and to figure out our universe - the universe around us and the universe out there beyond the stars. The question of whether God exists or not is irrelevant and philosophically speaking imo is a non-sensical question to ask.

    I think the way forward is through scientific and philosophical progress - and we are on that journey. What humans have acheived is quite mind-blowing - and I hold on to my personal belief that humans are special. Sure there may be some alien life forms on another planet on another galaxy that massively exceed our intelligence - and the search for this will continue in ernest - but until we find this we have no other alternative than to think we are quite special. The more we achieve the more we will realise this, and the more we realise this, perhaps that will be the 'opium for the masses' that tips things in the favour of the non-religionists. We have to have that hope and that beleif that humans can live as one peaceful happy community and strive to improve our scientific and philosophical thought in order we can acheive this - but I don't think that creating more labelled 'groups' is the best way to acheive this.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #58 - November 29, 2010, 03:13 PM
    But many people (the followers as opposed to those who are here) who belong to labelled groups often need a labelled group to switch too in order to prove to themselves they have done something & changed & also to provide an identity/community for themselves to fit into.

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  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #59 - November 29, 2010, 03:15 PM
    Abu Yunus2.0 is a better release than Abu Yunus1. I can't wait till the next version; strip-clubs, rioting and cocaine.
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