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Theme Changer

 Topic: Christmas and all that

 (Read 12914 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Christmas and all that
     OP - December 04, 2010, 09:46 AM

    The bare bones of this system are based around calendars and time keeping and it probably started about 8000 to 6000 years ago.
    Its development might have looked like this–

    Some chap notices that he can keep track of time by watching the stars and the sun, this info is valuable because it lets people know when to plant crops or gather winter fuel, it’s this knowledge that allows for agriculture and the creation of civilization.

    So our chap:
    Charges people 10% of what they produce for his services.

    He finds he requires some kind of observatory to make his calculations (some kind of Stonehenge type thingy).

    Our chap decides to hide how it’s done behind some kind of mumbo jumbo to keep his source of income secure but he makes the “mumbo jumbo” such that a smart person can work out how it’s done, its then possible to re-discovery it, if our chap dies before he has a chance to pass on his knowledge.

    (This allows for the start of a “hierarchy of knowledge”, there are believers with no understanding of what they are following e.g. the usual suspects who are easily distracted with bright shine objects or who can be made fearful that a sky pixy will “get um” if they think to much about what’s going on, then there are initiates into “the mysteries” who have worked out what’s going on and the priests who know for sure what’s going)

    Religions based on calendars are easy to spot, they:
    Have a priesthood who claim to be are a conduit to some higher knowledge or force

    This priesthood likes to get paid -a lot- and so they encourage their followers to make get other people to submit see the error of their ways and force encourage them to join the “one true religion”™

    They have holy-days (especially holidays around solstices and equinoxes)

    The place of worship has some kind of sun dial functions and they use symbolism based on the sun or time, for example the cross, circle or box

    (draw a circle, at the top of the circle write “summer solstice” and the bottom write “winter solstice”, to the right of the circle write “spring equinox” and on the left side write “autumn equinox”, draw a line connecting the solstices and another for the equinoxes and you get a cross then stick a symbol of the sun on the cross and bingo you have a religion)


    Another giveaway is numbers, such as 4 (as in seasons), 12 (moon-ths or 12 constellations of the zodiac) 360, 30 or 33 (days/degrees)
    the number 30 is based on 360(days)/12(constellations) to define what constellation (house) the sun is in and the extra 3 (as in 33) degrees is for when the sun has fully entered in its new constellation(house) from the previous one

    3 is another biggy, probably based on the 3 days the sun takes for it to start the gradual lengthening of daylight after the winter solstice dec 21 to dec 25

    More on this here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solstice
    The name is derived from the Latin sol (sun) and sistere (to stand still), because at the solstices, the Sun stands still in declination; that is, the apparent movement of the Sun's path north or south comes to a stop before reversing direction.

    Or here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

    As we would expect there are “signals” to the initiates that this story is about the sun/calendars ect.

    And in this case we have "Three Kings", or "Three Wise Men" or “the Magi” see Matthew 2

    This refers to the 3 belt stars in the constellation of Orion
    Job 38:31 ("Can you loosen Orion’s belt?")

    Look east on Christmas morning, find Orion and draw a line through the 3 belt stars down,  you will come to Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky, if you continue on through Sirius to the horizon it points to where the saviour of the world sun will appear that morning.


  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #1 - December 04, 2010, 10:29 AM

    O_o?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #2 - December 04, 2010, 11:57 AM

    yep im bored - its snowing
    but maybe I should point out that jebus is just the personification of the sun and not a real actual person, so how come mo didn't know that?
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #3 - December 04, 2010, 12:25 PM

    Even Catholic emblems reflect this fact.  The sun is high in their iconography.
    http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hol.com%2F~mikesch%2Fmonstr.htm&ei=4jP6TPHdHsqzhAf-pq0r&usg=AFQjCNFWfvjoN2OTw7pdP2Csr-NLRnT8Ww

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #4 - December 04, 2010, 12:36 PM

    Yes Christmas has pagan roots but I hope this is not a rehash of that Zeitgeist bollocks...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #5 - December 04, 2010, 12:39 PM

    +1

    Its embarrassing to see atheists fall for that shit.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #6 - December 04, 2010, 12:42 PM

    I also reckon that fear of the unknown drove the processes you describe above.
    Imagine the icy North is melting into desirable virgin territory at a phenomenal rate and you're a hunter-gatherer following it northwards, into Terra Incognita, to take advantage of the untapped goodies that were doing the same: The tree belt was, I understand, moving North at the rate of 3 miles a year.  There were just one or two flies in the ointment though - one eg you could do something about was the intense Winter cold and one eg you did not understand and could do nothing about, ie 'shortening day length'.
    How frightening it must have been not to know whether day would just disappear altogether, as you reached the Northern limits.  If someone said to you 'I know how to hold back the darkness' or 'I can tell you the days are going to get longer' but 'you've got to venerate me for telling you all this' and it was so, then you'd probably let them run other areas of your life too, if it gave you reassurance.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #7 - December 04, 2010, 01:28 PM

    if anybody feels i have goofed then please point out where
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #8 - December 04, 2010, 01:46 PM

    Precession of the Equinoxes
    http://www.crystalinks.com/precession.html
    if you make a Stonehenge type thingy and make a note of which constellation the sun comes up in on the spring equinox you will know what Astronomical age you are in
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_age

    we are in the age of Pisces which is from AD 1 and ends in ca. AD 2150.(note this is not super accurate but close enough)
    so a signal to those in the know would be anything fish related, so the Jesus fish symbol and all the fisherman stuff in the bible, but a major give-away is the feeding  of the multitude with two fish
    pisces- note the two fish

  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #9 - December 04, 2010, 02:23 PM

    but maybe I should point out that jebus is just the personification of the sun ..

    That's standard pagan interpretation.


    Yep, modern Christianity and paganism are closely linked in many aspects.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #10 - December 04, 2010, 03:03 PM

    yes about that, I have been meaning to ask a muslim (an ex one will do) about

    this:


    and this:

    or this:


    seem the same to me - symbolically i mean, as in a new moon or bulls horns holding a sun (or star)
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #11 - December 04, 2010, 03:24 PM

    I think the moon of Islam came from Babylonian symbolism

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #12 - December 04, 2010, 04:17 PM

    yep i agree, so my question is why was that particular symbol chosen given that its very defiantly from a pagan belief system

    anyway i was having a bit of a google and came across this
    http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/crucific.htm
    from the page:
    It is well known that Mohammed was once a cardinal, and became heretic because he failed to be elected pope.  Also (later in life) having drunk to excess, he fell by the roadside, and in this condition was killed by swine.  And for that reason, his followers abhor pork even unto this day.

    and with my op scenario in mind:

    Incoming clerics were naive about the true Christian origins and the basis of their preaching was not revealed until they achieved and maintained the office of bishop.  They were then eligible to enter the College of Cardinals, and after swearing a vow of secrecy, were enlightened as to the invented nature of the Christian deity.  Mohammed had achieved the position of cardinal, knew the false essence of Christianity, and having being passed over for the top papal job at around the age of forty, departed and established his own religion.

    Matthew Paris
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Paris
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #13 - December 04, 2010, 04:26 PM

    Because it was associated with previous deities I assume, so adopting it would have made the transition from paganism to islam easier.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #14 - December 09, 2010, 07:04 AM

    yep i agree, so my question is why was that particular symbol chosen given that its very defiantly from a pagan belief system

    anyway i was having a bit of a google and came across this
    http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/crucific.htm
    from the page:
    It is well known that Mohammed was once a cardinal, and became heretic because he failed to be elected pope.  Also (later in life) having drunk to excess, he fell by the roadside, and in this condition was killed by swine.  And for that reason, his followers abhor pork even unto this day.

    and with my op scenario in mind:

    Incoming clerics were naive about the true Christian origins and the basis of their preaching was not revealed until they achieved and maintained the office of bishop.  They were then eligible to enter the College of Cardinals, and after swearing a vow of secrecy, were enlightened as to the invented nature of the Christian deity.  Mohammed had achieved the position of cardinal, knew the false essence of Christianity, and having being passed over for the top papal job at around the age of forty, departed and established his own religion.

    Matthew Paris
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Paris


    Interesting idea. Be it actually so that Mohammed had been a Cardinal of the Catholic Church before branching off to start Islam it would explain some things. However saying that this gave him knowledge of the false essence of Christianity would be a bit of an assumption. It would first need to be proved the the Catholic Church actually represented want the Bible declares is Christianity. Being that an investigation of that matter would only expose the Catholic Church as the foremost among the teachers of false doctrines.

    Many pagan religious symbol started in ancient Babylon. That they are still in use today is part of Bible prophecy. Book of Revelation reference to Babylon the Great.

    I don't know might be an interesting thing to look up.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #15 - December 09, 2010, 10:18 AM

    the monotheistic religions were always sure to make the transition easier from paganism to monotheism. Christmas, Easter, St Georges Day (very popular in kosovo even amongst Muslims) are all relic's from pagan times and this fact is even acknowledged by the church itself (at least the more progressive Priests) ...

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #16 - December 09, 2010, 03:02 PM

    No not always. Please look into earily Christians, 1st centry. Or at least before 400's B.C.E. They were put death for their refusal to take part in  costoms of the area they saw as not Christian.  There are modern Christian who also refuse involvement in pagan based traditions.                                                               Not sure what you mean by "most progressive" and also would wonder "What church would agree".  No doubt from some point of view there some truth, however bottom line is not all monotheistic religion include pagan forms of worship to make it easy to change.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #17 - December 09, 2010, 10:03 PM

    Lynna, Christmas (cuting the tree decorating it and being happy for the winter solstice) is a pagan festivity... Easter is also the same a astronomical phenomena.  St Georges is celebrated in Kosvo by the people traditionally by weaving crowns out of late spring flowers, bathing ceremonially with water that had poison ivy in it(it doesn't burn)... the grown ups make swings for the chilldren so they can play and in the end there is a feast (eating, drinking) and in the end all the pottery (clay pottery traditionally is used for this day) is broken into pieces... All these customs have NOTHING to do with SAINT GEORGE..... it is only a way of expressing gratitude for the spring/summer, and enjoying the good times after the winter..

    Progressive priests (people not in some weird order) will acknowledge that Christmas has nothing to do with the day of birth of Jesus... It was just decided as a day of birth for him, by the late antiquity Romans... I know that early Christians didn't participate in pagan customs, that's why they were persecuted... But after Rome accepted Christianity, Christianity accepted Rome.....

    bye

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #18 - December 11, 2010, 06:01 AM

    protestants wouldn't have a bible or knowledge of Jesus or any of that stuff if it where not for the Roman catholics
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #19 - December 11, 2010, 08:16 AM

    protestants wouldn't have a bible or knowledge of Jesus or any of that stuff if it where not for the Roman catholics


    If you don't mind it might be  interesting to have a little more information on your point of view.

    To be sure a lot of Catholic scribes copied and recopied Bible text, however the Catholic hiearchy had no problem adding nonChristian traditions to it's body of believes for the sake of political gain. The Bible speaks against this as a course of conduct for Christians.

    Just to look at few place where a Christian can look for this advice:
    2 Corinthians 6:14-17
    Colossians 2:8
    1 Peter 3:14,15
    John 15:18,19
    2 Timothy 3:12,13
    2 Timothy 3: 14,15

    Now if you're not a Christian it doesn't make one bit of difference what the Bible says because it is not the book that defines what you claim to be.

    However, if you are a Christian or are claiming to be one it does matter, because there is some exspectation that you would fit the definition of what you claim to be.

    My point is that there are standards that define what something is and what it is not.

    If we were talking about diamonds. Would you let me say that a piece of cut glass was the same thing as a diamond? Would you? No. Especially if you were going to buy it. Why? Because there is a standard, a definition, of what is and what is not a diamond. You're not about to pay big money for a fake.

    We could logically go through most everything else we know about on earth to determine what it is and catalog it by looking at definitions.

    So, can you explain to me why there is suddenly this big problem among some people trying to figure out if a religion or religious persons is are isn't what they claim to be.

    Are you sure Protestants would not have the Bible or knowledge of Jesus if it wasn't for the Roman Catholics?

    History would have just been different. There would have been some one else. Really, if you look at the Bible may have servived despite the Catholics in stead of because of them. This however would be a futile discussion because it happened the way it did.

    So are you just wondering about the pagan moon symbol being used?

    Do you think there is a definitive answer?

    I've heard it said that the moon and star is the Islamic synbol because you can see the evening star in the horns of the moon at the beginning of Ramadan. I have abolutely no idea if this is true in any sense. I don't recall if some on told me that or if I read it some place. I don't know if such a thing is really visible at the beginning of Ramadan.

    Well....Okay check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan

    Anyhow, I don't know for sure.  I looked that ^ up just now.

    At what point in history did Muslims start using that moon and star symbol?

    Did Mohammed have a flag like that? I thought he was against idol worship?

    Aren't there any exMuslims here that renounced Islam because of this symbol?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #20 - December 12, 2010, 07:35 AM

    You said:
    History would have just been different. There would have been some one else. Really, if you look at the Bible may have servived despite the Catholics in stead of because of them. This however would be a futile discussion because it happened the way it did.


    In my opening post I was showing the roots of one of the two streams of religion in the world

    (one kind and probably the oldest is based on the use and accumulation of some kind of force or vital energy, call it chi or mana or prana and examples of this type of belief would be Buddhism, Taoism, Huna and the many kinds of shamanistic practices from around the world.)

    And the other kind such as Christianity is just about social control and some sort of information hidden in plain sight so that only those initiated into its mystery’s can fully understand what its really all about

    In the case of Christianity the information is based around calendars and sun worship  and it was probably created to gather in all the other sun worshiping cults of that time and also to include the jews into the whole thing, who where a pain in the ass to tptb at that time.


    You said:
    Do you think there is a definitive answer?


    Evening Star is the name given to the planet Venus when it appears in the West (evening sky) after sunset

    The moon and Venus don’t line up every Ramadan

    I think the star (sun) between to horns (new moons?) is a reference to the Age of Taurus 4300 BC and ended in ca. 2150 BC
    Look for any bull/cow cults
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_%28mythology%29


  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #21 - December 12, 2010, 09:05 AM

    You have some interesting ideas.

    I didn't read all your link. I was just getting ready to get off line, I will however get around to it over the next few days. I'll be off work.


    You say:
    I think the star (sun) between to horns (new moons?) is a reference to the Age of Taurus 4300 BC and ended in ca. 2150 BC
    Look for any bull/cow cults

    So, if this is the case and the symbol refers to the historical period 4300 B.C.E. to 2150 B.C.E. what does it mean?

    You say:
    And the other kind such as Christianity is just about social control and some sort of information hidden in plain sight so that only those initiated into its mystery’s can fully understand what its really all about

    In the case of Christianity the information is based around calendars and sun worship  and it was probably created to gather in all the other sun worshiping cults of that time and also to include the jews into the whole thing, who where a pain in the ass to tptb at that time.

    I'm not inclined to agree with you on your opinion on this matter about Christianity. Perhaps that, your discription, is what Apostate Christendom has become or worse. However the fact that the lie has come to be does not mean the truth no longer is in existence.

    In your first post there some things you atribute to Christianty that simple are not supported by the Bible.

    1)And in this case we have "Three Kings", or "Three Wise Men" or “the Magi” see Matthew 2

    Could you please give the exact verse in Matthew (or any canon gospel) where the number 3 is mentioned as the exact number of Wise men that came visiting Jesus.

    2)This priesthood likes to get paid -a lot- and so they encourage their followers to make get other people to submit see the error of their ways and force encourage them to join the “one true religion”™

    Is this idea of a paid clergy/priesthood supported by the Bible. In the ancient nation of Israel becuase it was also a physical nation there were taxes and supports paid. There was a reasonable fairness if carried out correctly, this however is more on a different subject (for another time?) I am more speaking about references in the Christian Greek Scriptures that would support your claim that this paid priesthood is really a Christian establishment. Do you have any?

    3)They have holy-days (especially holidays around solstices and equinoxes)

    Do you have any Biblical support for saying Christmas is a Christian holiday? Any example form the Acts of the Apostles regarding how they had this celebration?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #22 - December 12, 2010, 09:06 AM

    protestants wouldn't have a bible or knowledge of Jesus or any of that stuff if it where not for the Roman catholics

    Yes, that would have been such a tragedy.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #23 - December 12, 2010, 09:31 AM

    It might be.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #24 - December 12, 2010, 12:14 PM

    So, if this is the case and the symbol refers to the historical period 4300 B.C.E. to 2150 B.C.E. what does it mean?

    Now that’s the $64000 question, my guess is a hidden group who keep alive a belief system that was probably started in the Sumerian era and is still alive and well

    Could you please give the exact verse in Matthew (or any canon gospel) where the number 3 is mentioned as the exact number of Wise men that came visiting Jesus.

    Some stuff about the magi:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi

    Yes the number is not given in the bible as to how many magi there are but the idea here is that the information is encoded, so:
    Matthew 2
    1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
    2 and asked, where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.

    Now if there where some blokes living in the east and then they followed a star they saw in the east – which way would they be going?

    11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshipped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. 

    Gold incense and myrrh - that’s 3 gifts from 3 king

    Is this idea of a paid clergy/priesthood supported by the Bible….
    The idea that the priesthood get paid is probably from the second set of 10 commandments that god had to make for Moses (after he broke the first set)

    Exodus 34:26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.

    Check out
    http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm
    for more on this

    but as for tithing, you might try here
    http://www.gotquestions.org/tithing-Christian.html

    Do you have any Biblical support for saying Christmas is a Christian holiday?
    tricky, how am I going to prove that Christ’s mass is Christian.. are you having a laugh? 

  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #25 - December 12, 2010, 12:30 PM

    Well this post is beyond my mental capabilities (BOOOOOOORIIIIIING!) but hey I get this or that sometimes!
    Nice post Shrek! I like you!  far away hug

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #26 - December 12, 2010, 12:38 PM

    We got our Christmas tree yesterday. We only celebrate it for the gift giving, there's no religious significance for us.

    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #27 - December 13, 2010, 07:46 AM

    @Pierced Beauty
    It's nice that you're honest about the celebration.
    If you'feel comfortable with that level of involvement, that is your right to use your freewill in that way.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #28 - December 13, 2010, 09:46 AM

    Jeremiah 10:2-4

    2 This is what the LORD says:

       “Do not learn the ways of the nations
       or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
       though the nations are terrified by them.
    3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
       they cut a tree out of the forest,
       and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
    4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
       they fasten it with hammer and nails
       so it will not totter.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Love these verses Cheesy...

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Christmas and all that
     Reply #29 - December 13, 2010, 03:45 PM

    My boss brought cakes for everybody for Christmas.. I am just loving it. Christmas is best time of the year.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
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