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Theme Changer

 Topic: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan

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  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #30 - January 10, 2011, 07:37 AM

    What's the historic rate of Jizya by the way? is a percentage of income/assets or an arbitrary sum ?
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #31 - January 10, 2011, 09:35 AM

    What's the historic rate of Jizya by the way? is a percentage of income/assets or an arbitrary sum ?

    There were no set rules - it was traditionally a lot higher than the taxes on Muslims of course as it covered them being "tolerated".

    IIRC, there were examples where it even went above 100% of income in some cases.

    One of the other things that was interesting was that it was often taxed on groups rather than individuals - which caused significant hardship if individuals died.

    Bat Ye'or goes into it all in significant detail in her books.
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #32 - January 10, 2011, 03:20 PM

    I see. If you find any articles about it please share.
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #33 - January 10, 2011, 04:01 PM

     
    Quote from: DH
    Islam advocates an essentially low tax market economy based on free trade and an extremely brutal response to transgression of private property sanctity


    Quote from: deusvult
    Sigh.  I have to spell it out for you.  People claim the Islamic state will do x, y z.  These things require money.  The state has to get the money from somewhere.  I am quite aware of what the taxes are and their historic rates. The idea of Islamic economics and how it would apply to the state do not exist in a coherent form.  Economic theory was developed after the Islamic state.  As such people read into the " Islamic state" whatever they want.  Qutub and Maududi read distinctly socialist and communist attitudes into it.  Qutub advocated state resources and utilities be state run and advocated since all land belongs to Allah and the state would represent the shadow of God that there should be strong state premptions on property.  Maududi was more laise fair about state control.  In Western countries the rhetoric has populist overtones...

    (etc)

    Allah says:

    ....Allah has allowed trading....(Koran 2:275)

    As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah (5.38)

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #34 - January 10, 2011, 04:17 PM

    Coming back to this:

    Quote from: deusvult
    Does the "low tax" and perpetual war idea seem a little at odds DH?


    Islamic raids and wars of conquest were self-funding out of the booty acquired from the plundered victims of Islamic aggression. Indeed, the inability of Islamic states to maintain this "divinely sanctioned" source of revenue (due largely to their running into ever-stronger resistance) goes a long way to explain their historical economic demise.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #35 - January 10, 2011, 04:23 PM

    Quote
    The idea of Islamic economics and how it would apply to the state do not exist in a coherent form.  Economic theory was developed after the Islamic state.  As such people read into the " Islamic state" whatever they want.

     ill quote myself again, not to prove you wrong in a petty squabble, but for emphasis so that people know when they hear " Islamic economics is free enterprise friends or believes in social justice " they are cherry picking specific economic and political practices and not pointing to a coherent economic theory.  Cutting of hands for thieft is a hard line stance against the thief of private property but ignores other parts of Shariah law that do violate private property just as violently. Same in the opposite current with social justice, things get cherry picked.  The Islamic state was a proto economic state, it doesn't have a consistent theory behind it economically speaking.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #36 - January 10, 2011, 04:29 PM

    Coming back to this:

    Islamic raids and wars of conquest were self-funding out of the booty acquired from the plundered victims of Islamic aggression. Indeed, the inability of Islamic states to maintain this "divinely sanctioned" source of revenue (due largely to their running into ever-stronger resistance) goes a long way to explain their historical economic demise.

     you are right on this.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #37 - January 10, 2011, 04:35 PM

    Again, I stated that Islam espouses an ESSENTIALLY free market capitalist economy - not a "pure" one (whatever that is). In the same way, the American South during the plantation slavery era was run along ESSENTIALLY capitalist lines. No one could seriously reason from the fact the slaves were DIRECTED to certain tasks and deprived by their owners of Capitalism's theoretical "freedom of movement" that the South was in any way "socialist" or "communist".

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #38 - January 10, 2011, 04:42 PM

    Returning to Aphrodite's above statement:

    if Islam is anything economically its socialist.

    And large elements of the political left seem to have accepted such absurdity - which might explain why it has "gone soft" on Islam.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #39 - January 10, 2011, 04:50 PM

    And as I said, you can read into it whatever you want, it isn't a coherent collection of economic thought out processes but a string of vague and sometimes conflicting admonitions tied with specific ( and economically unstable) business practices. It can run the gambit from state capitalism, which it would most defiantly have to do to hard socialism, though not quite communism.  Islamic economists call it the third theory or third way, so if you want to say it would appear that way sure, but don't be surprised when other equally value interpretations turn up.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #40 - January 10, 2011, 08:36 PM

    I see. If you find any articles about it please share.

    Google books throws up these:
    1
    2
    3
    2 books by Bat Ye'or and a book by Norman Stillman.
    There is some info in these - you'll see that it is often contradictory.

    IIRC in Moorish Spain (I can't remember the exact location - I think it was as stated though), at one stage they prevented Christians and Jews converting to Islam - because it reduced the tax base so much.
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #41 - January 11, 2011, 01:16 AM

    Have you seen the 9th company? Awesome film!

    My favorite moment in the movie.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #42 - January 11, 2011, 02:02 AM

    Do you know when I was a muslim, being from a deobandi background I was proud of what the fighters did against the soviets still kinda am. Having deobandi madrassahs teach jihad against the godless commies is a 'pride' thing for deobandis lol And I'm kinda related to 1 of these guys!

    Quote
    Another former Bury student, Bradford-based Sheikh Ahmed Ali, hails the 9/11 attacks on America because they acted as a wake-up call to young Muslims. This, he says, taught them that they will “never be accepted” in Britain and has led them to “return to Islam: sisters are wearing hijab . . . the lion is waking up”.


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2402973.ece

    That particular sheikh comes to my uncles house on Eid  lipsrsealed

    But he's always been fine with me, never said anything about hijab, jeans or anything which I find odd  parrot

    Anyhoo my fav part of the film. Guerrilla warfare at its best!
    Skip to about 5 mins 30

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPrIrDIxP30


  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #43 - January 11, 2011, 02:12 AM

    People won't accept people when they kill people and then boast about it?


    Shocking, a prophecy of the self fulfilling kind.  Ironically around my city people were worried that there might be reprisal attacks so they formed protection groups for mosques and Muslims student unions.  Yes, never welcome in the Great Satan.  I actually remember one radio show explaining that not all Muslims did this and we need to protect people who might get blamed but had nothing to do with it only hours after the towers fell.  Oh well. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #44 - January 11, 2011, 02:16 AM

    I've never seen 9th company, but it is on Netflix instant watch so I'll have to do it now.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #45 - January 11, 2011, 03:37 AM

    This is no secret guy's.

    The Whitehouse supported the Mujahideen in Afghanistan as much as they could. The CIA supplied the Mujahideen with billions of dollars, satellite image's on Soviet position's and even trained some part's of the Mujahideen in how to make car bomb's and IED's (roadside bomb's) which ironically are getting used against their own military force now and are now the cause the majority of death's to Nato in Afghanistan.

    The CIA also supplied Mujahideen with surface to air missile's to shoot down the Soviet Helicopters/Jets which gave the Mujahideen huge advantage in turning the tide's in this war,with the Soviet's inability to fight toe to toe with the Mujahideen, as in with Nato today... rely on air support in battle's. It is said "the one who control's the sky... dictate's the battle", in Afghanistan...it is said "the one who control's the mountain's... win's the war".

    People will find most shocking is that America, Britain  and the West allowed Muslim Jihad activist's to openly recruit Muslim's for the Jihad in the Mosque's,community center's and anywhere else. It was not only the CIA that supported the Mujahideen but also Saudi Arabia. They provided them religious moral support, publicly raised money for the Jihad and sent them Osama Bin Ladin who was welcomed back as a hero and given rock-star treatment by the House of Saud who had no idea in year's to come that this very man will be out to get them.!!! Also the Pakistani intelligence agency the ISI supported the Mujahideen in all area's and allowing them a safe haven in Pakistan's Peshawar land which was another key factor in winning the war.

    With the collapse of the Soviet Empire, America won the Cold War and became the only superpower in the world. The Cold Was was unlike any other war in history, ironically both superpowers never fought each other directly like they was scared of each other's power,never even fired a single shot at one another. They employed covert tactics,fought by proxy, with the Soviet's supporting the Vietnamese guerrilla's in the Vietnam war, turning it into a huge graveyard for the Yank's. America in year's to come used the same tactic in supporting the Mujahideen, difference is that not only America defeated the Soviet empire militarily, they defeated them economically by using their friend's in the House of Saud to lower the Oil price's to such extent that the Soviet's could not make profit from their huge oil resource's which played a major role in collapse of the Soviet Empire.

    So with America winning the war, they left the Afghan nation to sort it's self out and focused on their "New World Order", not knowing the consequence's yet to come. The US President Ronald Reagan in 1982 even dedicated the launch of the space shuttle Columbia to the Afghan freedom fighter's (Mujahideen) who they call terrorist's today.

    "Just as the Columbia, we think, represents man's finest aspirations in the field of science and technology so too does the struggle(Jihad in Arabic) of the Afghan people represent man's highest aspirations for freedom. I am dedicating, on behalf of the American people, the March 22nd launch of the Columbia to the people of Afghanistan." -- Ronald Reagan

    Funny thing is the same people the Columbia space shuttle was dedicated to in 1982 was celebrating it's destruction on the February 1, 2003 knowen as the "Space Shuttle Columbia disaster" when it was on a mission carrying the first ever Israeli astronaut with the rest of the crew member's being in US military...aired on Afghan tv, Afghan's celebrating by shooting AK47'S shot's in the air probably not even knowing that this very same Space shuttle was originally dedicated to them in 1982.

    He even created Afghanistan day.

    "Now, Therefore, I, Ronald Reagan, President of the United States of America, do hereby designate March 21, 1983 as Afghanistan Day".


    As America let Afghan's do their own thing, the Mujahideen split up into different faction's, fighting one another for power. Afghanistan turned into 5 mini-state's as Afghan's used to say that you needed 5 visa's to travel within the country. Corruption spread, human rights was abused, the whole country lacked security...then the Taliban come in.

    The creation of the Taliban happened when a local warlord in Kandahar kidnapped 2 teenage girl's, at the warlord's compound the girl's are repeatedly raped, looking for justice, the villager's turn to a one eyed veteran of the Afghan/Soviet war..Mullah Muhammad Omar. Omar had never been a man to run from responsibility, at a young age he had to learn to provide for his poor family, Omar spent his teenage year's wandering village to village...offering religious instruction's for shelter and food. When the call for Jihad came against the Soviet's...he answered the call...his fighting skill's on the battlefield became legendary. After the war the one eyed Mullah quietly went back to his religious study's but when a local commander dishonor's 2 local girl's..Mullah Omar is ready to stand up and fight!

    Mullah Omar enlist's 30 Talib's (students), armed with only 16 rifle's, they launch a attack on the warlord's base and rescuing the girl's and then hanging the rapist warlords. Soon after Mullah Omar has a dream, he report's that the Prophet Muhammad approached him in his dream's and he told him to pick up the gun and fight the warlord's and establish his rule over the country.  

    This is how the Taliban was created.


    FreeSoul

     
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #46 - January 11, 2011, 04:25 AM

    Do you know when I was a muslim, being from a deobandi background I was proud of what the fighters did against the soviets still kinda am. Having deobandi madrassahs teach jihad against the godless commies is a 'pride' thing for deobandis lol And I'm kinda related to 1 of these guys!


    Nothing to be proud of. They were reactionary insurgents intent on stopping the social progress and liberation of Afghan women taking place under the PDPA government. Afghanistan was moving forward and those assholes (many not from Afghanistan) decided to take it backwards, stop people from being educated and return women to a state of chattel slavery. There were two invading/intervening forces in Afghanistan, but only one was on the side of progress and freedom.

    The PDPA and their Red Army allies should have won.

    I've never seen 9th company, but it is on Netflix instant watch so I'll have to do it now.


    It's so-so. They completely fictionalized the Battle of Hill 3234. In real life 6 out of 39 Red Army soldiers were killed but in the movie only one Soviet survives the battle. A little too "Hollywood action" of a war film for my taste, but I suppose it was worth watching.

    fuck you
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #47 - January 11, 2011, 04:44 AM


     
    The PDPA and their Red Army allies should have won.



    But they didn't. I don't think anybody will win in Afghanistan. Every superpower has turned to Afghanistan when it's their turn to fall from grace. From Alexander the great to Genghis Khan....to the British empire to the Soviet empire, Afghanistan is nicked named "The graveyard of superpowers".

    If i was Obama, id take a good hard luck at history and pull and bring the troop's home. What America is doing today, they whole world will pay for it in the coming tomorrow. Just need to look at what the British done when it was a world power.  
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #48 - January 11, 2011, 04:50 AM

    Yeah well the difference between the Soviets and all those other examples is that the Afghan government actively solicited their intervention. The Soviet Union was aware of the potential pitfalls of direct military intervention and tried for some time to avoid it. Interference from the CIA, ISI and MI-6 sucked them into the conflict because the PDPA was having difficulty containing the insurgency with just a few Soviet military advisers once Pakistan and the West began aiding the insurgents.

    It's also important to remember that although Afghanistan is often called the "Soviet Union's Vietnam" that the USSR committed only about 1/5th the number of troops to Afghanistan that the US sent to Vietnam. There were about 150,000 Soviet and Afghan forces versus nearly 2 million mujahadin equipped, financed and trained by the US, Pakistan and UK. The Soviet side lost about 15k soldiers while the insurgents lost about 1 million. All in all, the Soviets didn't fare too poorly in Afghanistan considering what they were up against.

    fuck you
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #49 - January 11, 2011, 04:53 AM

    Agreed.
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #50 - January 11, 2011, 06:17 AM

    Quote from: FreeSoul007
    So with America winning the war, they left the Afghan nation to sort it's self out and focused on their "New World Order", not knowing the consequence's yet to come. The US President Ronald Reagan in 1982 even dedicated the launch of the space shuttle Columbia to the Afghan freedom fighter's (Mujahideen) who they call terrorist's today.


    Just to be pedantic, the term freedom fighters should have been put in derisive quotation marks. If fighting against the Soviets automatically makes someone a freedom fighter then Hitler was the greatest freedom fighter of all time. No, to be seriously regarded as a freedom fighter one must be fighting FOR freedom. "Mujahideen" means "jihad fighter" denoting that they were fighting for Islam, which of course is not freedom. I do believe that Reagan referred to the anti-communist Afghan jihadists as "freedom fighters" without the slightest hint of irony.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #51 - January 11, 2011, 06:25 AM

    Quote from: deusvult
    And as I said, you can read into it whatever you want, it isn't a coherent collection of economic thought out processes but a string of vague and sometimes conflicting admonitions tied with specific ( and economically unstable) business practices. It can run the gambit from state capitalism, which it would most defiantly have to do to hard socialism, though not quite communism.  Islamic economists call it the third theory or third way, so if you want to say it would appear that way sure, but don't be surprised when other equally value interpretations turn up.


    Provide one example of a historical sharia run society that could be seriously regarded as "socialist" hard or otherwise. You must remember that people like maududi were keen to make Islam "relevent" to people who may have been attracted to socialist ideas and would therefore seek to highlight Islam's supposed "anti-capitalist" features.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #52 - January 11, 2011, 06:34 AM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Yeah well the difference between the Soviets and all those other examples is that the Afghan government actively solicited their intervention.


    And the sheer scale and ferocity of the armed Afghan opposition to the Soviet presence strongly suggests that they were not welcome. With or without bin Laden or the Taliban most Afghan men were clearly bitterly opposed to the PDPA's progressive policies on women's rights etc.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #53 - January 11, 2011, 06:37 AM

    Just to be pedantic, the term freedom fighters should have been put in derisive quotation marks. If fighting against the Soviets automatically makes someone a freedom fighter then Hitler was the greatest freedom fighter of all time. No, to be seriously regarded as a freedom fighter one must be fighting FOR freedom. "Mujahideen" means "jihad fighter" denoting that they were fighting for Islam, which of course is not freedom. I do believe that Reagan referred to the anti-communist Afghan jihadists as "freedom fighters" without the slightest hint of irony.


    I don't think the American government cared what the Afghani's were fighting for, as long as they whooped the Soviet's ass's...that's all that mattered.

    I think at the time they was over whelmed, over joyed and could not believe the success of the Mujahideen that they sent the great red army home packing. The Mujahideen did the job the Yank's dare not do...go to war with a nuclear armed nation.  
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #54 - January 11, 2011, 06:42 AM

    And the sheer scale and ferocity of the armed Afghan opposition to the Soviet presence strongly suggests that they were not welcome. With or without bin Laden or the Taliban most Afghan men were clearly bitterly opposed to the PDPA's progressive policies on women's rights etc.


    Correction. Read what i written above. Many people confuse the Mujahideen with the Taliban. Taliban was created after the war with half of it's member's and main commander's being veterans of the Afghan/Soviet war, the other half being orphan's of the war. The Taliban came in and over-ran the warlord's that was fighting each other for power.
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #55 - January 11, 2011, 07:16 AM

    Yeah well the difference between the Soviets and all those other examples is that the Afghan government actively solicited their intervention. The Soviet Union was aware of the potential pitfalls of direct military intervention and tried for some time to avoid it. Interference from the CIA, ISI and MI-6 sucked them into the conflict because the PDPA was having difficulty containing the insurgency with just a few Soviet military advisers once Pakistan and the West began aiding the insurgents.

    It's also important to remember that although Afghanistan is often called the "Soviet Union's Vietnam" that the USSR committed only about 1/5th the number of troops to Afghanistan that the US sent to Vietnam. There were about 150,000 Soviet and Afghan forces versus nearly 2 million mujahadin equipped, financed and trained by the US, Pakistan and UK. The Soviet side lost about 15k soldiers while the insurgents lost about 1 million. All in all, the Soviets didn't fare too poorly in Afghanistan considering what they were up against.


    Very clever, you edited and changed the post after i agreed with it. Il get back to you.  Afro
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #56 - January 11, 2011, 12:47 PM

    I think at the time they was over whelmed, over joyed and could not believe the success of the Mujahideen that they sent the great red army home packing. The Mujahideen did the job the Yank's dare not do...go to war with a nuclear armed nation.  


    The muj sucked. They had over 2 million fighters receiving several billion dollars in aid, and it took them 10 years to kick out a Soviet force that never numbered more than 115,000 at its peak, and while the Red Army had about a 10% casualty rate, the muj had about a 50% casualty rate. Not too damn impressive if you ask me.

    It becomes even less impressive when you look at the conflict it is often compared to-- the Vietnam War. There active NVA and NLF combatants numbered about 500,000 in 1968, with less external aid from the USSR/PRC than the muj got from the US/UK/Pak, up against about 2 million US, ARVN and allied soldiers.

    The idea that the mujahadeen in the Soviet-Afghan War were some kind of David heroically defeating the Red Army Goliath is a myth-- they out-numbered the Soviets/PDPA 13 to 1, had the backing of a superpower, their next-door neighbor and billions of dollars in aid and still just barely managed to force a Red Army withdrawal. Fuck the muj-- bunch of pussies.

    fuck you
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #57 - January 11, 2011, 02:15 PM

    Lol in war casualties aren't as important as achieving your goals---the red army didn't.

    Nothing to be proud of. They were reactionary insurgents intent on stopping the social progress and liberation of Afghan women taking place under the PDPA government. Afghanistan was moving forward and those assholes (many not from Afghanistan) decided to take it backwards, stop people from being educated and return women to a state of chattel slavery. There were two invading/intervening forces in Afghanistan, but only one was on the side of progress and freedom.


    Although I agree with you about the social progress and women's rights, I don't agree that the PDPA brought freedom, nor did red army. SHUTTING, BURNING and PISSING in mosques, killing political opposition and promoting state atheism isn't freedom to me, its imposing an ideology on people that didn't like it well the majority didn't. Many of the fighters, fighting then and today saw their families killed in indiscriminate aerial bombings and shellings and since then have used the rifle and continue to do so. Fuck the PDPA and red army--well they're not around any more lol
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #58 - January 11, 2011, 08:24 PM

    Lol in war casualties aren't as important as achieving your goals---the red army didn't.


    Of course, but that doesn't negate anything I said above. The muj had a significant numerical advantage (13-1) over the Red Army, billions of dollars in aid, knowledge of the territory and support of many of the people, and yet they still couldn't inflict a heavy casualty rate, and took them 10 years to make it costly enough for the Soviets Union to finally withdraw troops. Even after the Red Army left it still took 2 years for them to take Kabul. It's not the David and Goliath myth it's portrayed as-- if it hadn't been for the aid of the US, UK, and Pakistan, the incompetent and disorganized insurgents would have been crushed by a numerically smaller force.

    Quote
    Although I agree with you about the social progress and women's rights, I don't agree that the PDPA brought freedom, nor did red army. SHUTTING, BURNING and PISSING in mosques, killing political opposition and promoting state atheism isn't freedom to me, its imposing an ideology on people that didn't like it well the majority didn't. Many of the fighters, fighting then and today saw their families killed in indiscriminate aerial bombings and shellings and since then have used the rifle and continue to do so. Fuck the PDPA and red army--well they're not around any more lol


    Well, there were pretty huge differences in policy during this time period (Afghanistan went through 5 Presidents in 10 years) between the Khalq and Parcham factions, the latter being much more extreme in their attempts to build a communist nation. The Soviets supported the more moderate PDPA leaders, and advised them not to get too aggressive in their program lest they piss off the majority of people. Were there atrocities committed by the Red Army and their allies? Of course-- in war there always are. But were these atrocities part of a systematic campaign of terror and war crimes by the Soviet Union? Hell no. The Soviets weren't stupid. They knew from the very beginning the operation could turn into their Vietnam War, which is why they were reluctant to intervene initially and never committed that many troops to the operation (about 2% of their total military). They therefore attempted, with mixed success, to avoid some of the US's errors in Vietnam.

    Were the Red Army and PDPA angels? Certainly not-- they had a lot of blood on their hands, but they were very clearly the lesser of two evils. If I were a woman in Afghanistan in 1980 who wanted to someday go to university, have a job, wear a damn skirt, and not be forced into an arranged marriage, there wouldn't be any doubt as to which side I'd be hoping won the war. It's a no-brainer really.

    None of this would have happened if ignorant savages hadn't decided to rebel against some basic progressive reforms (ending peonage, basic women's rights, lowering dowry prices, universal education, etc.) implemented by the PDPA, and the US, UK and Pakistanis supporting these fucking bastards. That hadn't happened there would have never been a large-scale or long-term Soviet intervention, may not have been a direct military intervention by the USSR at all-- millions of lives would have been saved and millions of women would have had a path out of slavery. You want someone to blame for that shit? Blame your former Muslim "brothers" and their imperialist sponsors.

    fuck you
  • Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
     Reply #59 - January 11, 2011, 09:26 PM

    Quote
    Blame your former Muslim "brothers" and their imperialist sponsors.


    I bet they regret it now  whistling2
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