What do you actually mean by God being outside of space and time?
This could mean he is omnipresent. He is present everywhere in terms of x,y and z. And knows about all events (past and future) with respect to 't'
Or
More likely (as you said "outside") God is in some other dimension where x,y,z and t do not apply to him. Like some people give example of 2D objects on paper viewed by someone in 3D realm.
The following verse associates both time (6 days) and space (established himself on the throne)
From Quran Verse 7:54 "Your Guardian-Lord Is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He established Himself on the Throne (of authority) "
Any ways what actually bothers me is following:
1)At least we know God's actions obviously have a starting point and end point.
2)And if God knows future events then before starting any action God knows the EXACT consequences.
From 1 and 2, God knew most of the humans (he is going to create) will suffer for eternity in hell fire (he was to create) due to Iblis (also created by God)
Three actions here despite knowing the exact consequences
So either God was compelled to do these actions despite knowing the consequences. Means God does not have free will. So what is the use of praying to God then. He can not change his actions.
Or God was setting up a stage for an interesting game as he was bored of Angels.
It will still make some sense if God is not supposed to know the future. However creating humans with conscious and knowing before creating that most of the humans will suffer for eternity sounds even more sadistic.
To summarize my point:
You may say God knew it before hand but the actions were actually taken by Iblis and Adam out of their free will.
The problem here is that these events occurred after the action of creation by God. And before his Action of Creation God knew the consequences.
E.g. if I make a weapon capable of killing some one and I know for certain that my son will kill himself using the same weapon in FUTURE.
Either I will not make the weapon or at least not give it to my son to play with it unless I want my son to kill himself.
I still give the weapon to my son and then hold him responsible for killing himself with the weapon because the son did it out of his free will. I did not ask him to do so. Can I be called a loving parent?
Bismillah.
This took me a very very long time to write so please read carefully, take your time, inshaAllah may the answers be satisfactory to you.
When I say that God is outside of time and space. I mean that He is not bound by time and space and has no limitations.
When God says that He created the heavens and earth in 6 days, and estabilished Himself on the Throne of authority. These are APPROXIMATIONS. It is not to be understood in the sense that 6 days are like ours, or that His throne is like an armchair.
What goes on outside of His realm is the relative world, and he is not bound by it. Anything outside His realm is bound by time and space and therefore limited.
In the verse you quoted, He is describing the relative world so He uses a measure. As for your interpretation of Him being estabilished on a Throne as “space”.
That cannot be understood literally, but in an allegorical sense. Whenever God is discussed the Islamic understanding is that He is limitless and incomprehensible by the human mind. So it has to be taken as an allegory, and even the verse you quoted, the translator has even added a note, saying it is an allegory for
“Authority”.
The reason why God mentioned the Throne of authority is to refute those that say that God exists but He does not govern the universe.
In the Quran it says:
“Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to Allah;
the hand of Allah is above their hands.” 48:10
Are you to tell me that Allah literally placed his hand over theirs?
As for Days, it means period. In the Quran it says:
“Him Who created the earth in two Days” 41:09
"Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" 7:54
It is understood that the creation of the earth fits into those 6 days, and does not come after.
In other words the universe took 6 days, and the earth as the last 2 days of those 6.
We can simplify 2/6 into 1/3.
Modern science says that the age of the earth is around 4.54 billion years old, whilst the age of the Universe is around 13.75 ± 0.17 billion years.
Lets just say the universe is 13.5 billion years old.
If we divide both those figures by three, we can simplify it to 1.5/4.5 which is the same as saying 1/3
However lets not derail the subject, as you posed several philosophical questions.
You have obviously taken the philosophical questions from elsewhere and they have conflicted with your faith, because I recognise those questions I just cannot remember which philosopher came up with them.
The problem is you are bringing God down to the relative world and trying to understand Him and His judgements as that of another human being.
Your example about the child playing with a gun and the parent watching idly is flawed.
We are under a trial, so if in the real world if that did happen, the parent would be negligent and have committed a crime.
BUT God is not under a trial, so it is irrelevant for him.
The Quran says:
“He will not be questioned as to that which He doeth,
but they will be questioned.” 21:23
Let me give you another example, in Islam like in many religions there is something called fate, or decree of God.
Sometimes that decree can be warded off, or changed. This all depends on the persons choices, because, and I will repeat it, WE ARE UNDER A TRIAL.
e.g
Let’s just say someone has cancer. Now that is decreed by God. Should he then ask God to cure him?
But then again, it is fate, so does that mean, that one should not ask God as the matter has already been determined?
No. The Muslim understanding is that only “dua” can change fate.
Does that mean that God has no freewill and doesn’t know the future?
No. Because he already knew whether you were going to make that crucial dua, so he decreed that change of fate.
How did he know?
Because he is outside of time and space. What happened in the future was already known by him
This doesn’t mean that God “doesn’t have freewill” just because he allows things to happen.
If He prevented and stopped us from sinning, then where is the trial, and why not create us as Angels who never disobey Him?
And One of God’s attributes is
Al Ghaffar the Forgiving, and
Al Ghaffur One who forgives again and again, another is Al-Alim Knower of All.
The fact that we sin, and God knew were going to sin, is not because he wanted to punish us, But because he loves His creation and wanted a creation that had free will to be grateful to Him.
Not because He was in need of it, but simply to worship him and be grateful out of its own freewill.
When we sin, the attribute of
Al Ghaffur (Forgiveness) comes into play.
So as long as a human repents God will Forgive him/her.Muhammad (SAW) said:
"If you did not commit sins, Allaah would sweep you out of existence and replace you by another people who would commit sins, ask for Allaah's forgiveness and He would forgive them."
Muhammad (SAW) also said: “Allah, Blessed and Exalted is He, says, ‘O son of Adam, as long as you call on Me, I shall forgive you of what you have done, and think nothing of it. O son of Adam,
even if your sins were to reach up to the clouds in the sky, and then you were to ask for My forgiveness, I would forgive you and think nothing of it. O son of Adam,
even if you were to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth, and then you were to meet Me after death,
not worshipping anything besides Me, I would bring you
forgiveness nearly as great as the earth.’”
In another Hadith the Prophet (SAW) said
a man murdered 100 people, but just
because he repented, God Forgive him.
You said:
So either God was compelled to do these actions despite knowing the consequences. Means God does not have free will. So what is the use of praying to God then. He can not change his actions.
So let’s just say God doesn’t know the future? One could then also argue that He is not worthy of our worship, right?
What you’re saying is if He had the foreknowledge of all of this, then:
1) It is better if He didn’t create satan
2) Didn’t create us
3) satan would not have been tempted,
4) nor would we have been tempted and trialed
5) none of God’s creations would end up in hell.
You said:
“Or God was setting up a stage for an interesting game as he was bored of Angels.”
You make it sound like as if it was a script, and you take away all responsibility from God’s creations, and make it sound as if they had no choice, when I have already mentioned that God is not under a trial.
According to that logic, one could say that it was a series of mistakes, or God did not know.
The bible says that God grieved and regretted that He made man and even repents from making mistakes. Genesis 6:6-7 mentions this.
These are people who claim that God knows the future and often quote verses from the bible to talk about some amazing biblical prophecies.
That is the Christian understanding however, and not the Muslim one, because that would limit God.
We don’t believe that God makes mistakes and grieves, or gets tired and requires rest.
Which leaves us with, why would God torture his creations, when He is meant to be Just, and Merciful.
Justice and Mercy means you punish someone, in a way that suits the crime, but because of your Mercy, you will give them a punishment that does not exceed the crime and also is less than the crime.
I feel like that is the point you are making.
Just like the punishment of God is so Great and limitless, His Reward is also Great and limitless.
One of His attributes is Al Shadid al Iqab (Strict in Punishment).
If God is so Powerful, and created something as incomprehensible as the universe, then I can only imagine that ill-manners, rejection and pride towards Him will be met with a punishment that is so great.
Well what makes you think that Hell is where God wants us to be?
After satan was thrown out of paradise, and was removed from the Mercy of God (cursed) he never apologised and was an unrepentant sinner, and made the challenge that he will prove to God that we are ingrates.
In the Quran Kufr is used to describe ungratefulness, as well as denial.
Satan asked God for respite to prove that Adam was not worthy, God gave him respite, and told satan that whoever follows his ways will end up with him.
Some interpreters have said that hell is not eternal.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1188044147713&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Cyber_Counselor%2FCyberCounselingE%2FCyberCounselingEThis is just one example, if you desire to read more later.
According to my own understanding I believe hell is a place that only those who have shared partners with God will remain for eternity.
Salvation can only be attained by believing in One God.
"
Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with him; but He forgiveth anything, else to whom He pleaseth" 4:48
Now before all of that, let us see who will be punished and who won’t in detail, and who won’t be punished eternally, of course I will provide sources and proof.
Those who sincerely have not reached that conclusion, then God will decide their case.
The people of ahl-al fatrat who did not receive any guidance would not enter hell.
The Quran says:
“
We would never punish (a person or community for the wrong they have done)
until we have sent a messenger.” 17:15
Those who were handicapped, were infants, or had mental problems and didn’t know the difference between right and wrong and those who were killed in the way of God (martyrs) would not be punished.
The Prophet (SAW) said:
"Five are martyrs: One who dies of plague, one who dies of an abdominal disease, one who dies of drowning, one who is buried alive (and) dies and one who is killed in Allah's cause."
Those who repented sincerely would be forgiven.
Those who were murdered and couldn’t live out the rest of their lives, Allah will judge their case with Mercy.
Those who had religion presented to them in a repulsive and unconvincing way, Imam Gazali mentioned that they have hope of being admitted into paradise.
Keep in mind the MERCY of God, as Muhammad (SAW) said:
“Verily, there are
one hundred (parts of) mercy for Allah, and it is one part of this mercy by virtue of which there is mutual love between the people and
ninety-nine reserved for the Day of Resurrection.”
However those who just want to mock, and don’t really have a desire to discover God, and purposely waste their time in trivial pursuit, and come up with countless arguments to disprove God, out of stubbornness. Even though deep down they probably acknowledge that there could be a God.
They cannot be counted as sincere.
If they are sincere then this doesn’t apply to them.
For example an agnostic doesn’t rule out God, they could sincerely be searching.
As for the rest of creation, hell is purification and they will eventually all enter paradise. This includes the Muslims btw, who have done sins that out balance their good deeds.
They will NOT abide in hell forever.
The whole purpose of this life is a trial to purify us and prove our gratitude so that we may earn the everlasting rewards of God.
Good deeds are what help one earn paradise and prove their gratitude, it is the purity that God desires of us.
The Quran says:
"The Day whereon neither wealth nor sons will avail, But only he (will prosper) that
brings to Allah a sound heart” 2:89
Out of the Mercy of God he made good deeds easy to accumulate and easy to shed bad deeds:
"Allah, the Almighty, says:
Whosoever does a good deed, will have (reward) ten times like it and I add more; and whosoever does an evil, will have the punishment like it or I will forgive (him); and whosoever approaches Me by one span, I will approach him by one cubit; and whosoever approaches Me by one cubit, I approach him by one fathom, and whosoever comes to Me walking, I go to him running; and whosoever meets Me with an earth-load of sins without associating anything with Me, I meet him with forgiveness like that." (Muslim)
Another hadith talks about how even easier it is to gain good deeds:
“He who has intended a good deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as from
ten good deeds to seven hundred times, or many times over. But if he has
intended a bad deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has
intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down as one bad deed."
Muhammad (SAW) said: “When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him:
My mercy prevails over my wrath.”
Another hadith says:
“If the believer knew the punishment of God, he would never feel assured of His Garden, and if the unbeliever knew the mercy of God,
he would never despair of His Garden.”
In regards to hell Muhammad (SAW) said, "When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of Hell will go to Hell, Allah will order those who have had faith equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed to be taken out from Hell. So they will be taken out but (by then) they will be blackened (charred). Then they will be put in the river of Haya' (rain) or Hayat (life) and they will revive like a grain that grows near the bank of a flood channel. Don't you see that it comes out yellow and twisted"
Muhammad (SAW) was sent to all mankind, including non-muslims:
“Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but
I have been sent to all mankind”
Muhammad (SAW) will intercede for all of creation, that would include the non-muslims:
“Allah the Supreme granted me three prayers, so I have twice prayed that ‘O Allah, forgive my Ummah! O Allah forgive my Ummah!’
And I have reserved the last one for the day when the entire creation will approach me with their needs, even Prophet Ibrahim!”
Anas told me the same as he told you and said that the Prophet added, 'I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him me the same as he 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted .' I will say, 'O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.'
Then Allah will say, 'By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: 'None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.' ''
Muhammad says that even though who never did any good will be taken out of hell:
“By the One in Whose hand is my soul, none of you can be more insistent in asking Allaah to restore his rights against his opponent than the believers who will ask Allaah, on the Day of Resurrection, (to grant them the power of intercession) for their brothers who are in the Fire. They will say, ‘Our Lord, they used to fast with us and pray and perform Hajj.’ It will be said to them, ‘Bring out those whom you recognize, so the Fire will be forbidden to burn them.’ So they will bring out many people… And Allaah will say: ‘The angels have interceded, and the Prophets have interceded, and the believers have interceded.
There is none left but the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.’ Then He will seize a handful of the Fire and bring forth from it people who never did anything good.”
Topic: Hi from on the fence muslim