Hi from on the fence muslim

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #390 - January 14, 2011, 01:15 AM

Quote from: ateapotist on January 14, 2011, 01:10 AM
Well, you know what I mean. Sahih Bukhari for example. Anyway, it is clear you are discrediting all Hadith. I take it you don't try to learn anything from them? Perhaps to interpret the Quran?

I'm not discreting ALL Hadith. Again, there were more than 2 million hadiths when Bukhari et al. got the idea they should clean up this mess... i simply don't believe they did an excellent job... that's all.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #391 - January 14, 2011, 01:15 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 14, 2011, 01:13 AM
If I want to see contradictions and untruths (in any scripture) I sure can, but if I don't want to, then even if they were clear as the midday sun, i can still cover my eyes.

Answer the question please.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #392 - January 14, 2011, 01:16 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 14, 2011, 01:13 AM
If I want to see contradictions and untruths (in any scripture) I sure can, but if I don't want to, then even if they were clear as the midday sun, i can still cover my eyes.

You certainly are amongst the best of believers:

Quran 5:101 O you who believe! Do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #393 - January 14, 2011, 01:17 AM

Quote from: deusvult on January 14, 2011, 01:14 AM
" If the contradictions were to cover the sun, I would believe in the shade" - Debunker.

that's not what i said. i basically said people can see whatever they want in a text... for example, that video you posted about Judiasm being a polytheist religion at first is the most skewed view on the Bible I ever came across in my life.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #394 - January 14, 2011, 01:19 AM

Quote from: Ishina on January 14, 2011, 01:08 AM
You seem like a bright guy. Don't you see contradictions and untruths in the Qur'an too?

i (definitely) see one or two... but i ignore them.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #395 - January 14, 2011, 01:20 AM

@Debunker

Beer is for rookies kindred. I never touch the stuff. Let us get together at an upscale wine bar after Jumu'ah prayers and, swilling the finest red to ever water mortal lips, squeeze the barmaid on my knee. Do you say Alhamdulilah when you gulp the beer down?

Theological question: If the souls of dead babies fly to immortal bliss, do you support abortion?
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #396 - January 14, 2011, 01:21 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 14, 2011, 01:19 AM
i (definitely) see one or two... but i ignore them.

And you still believe in such a source 100%, even though you acknowledge it contains contradictions...?

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #397 - January 14, 2011, 01:25 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 14, 2011, 01:20 AM
Theological question: If the souls of dead babies fly to immortal bliss, do you support abortion?

LOOOL! No, because it's not up to me to decide their fate. But that's only theologiccally speaking. If I were a woman and I didn't want the baby in my belly, i sure as hell will get rid of it.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #398 - January 14, 2011, 01:28 AM

Quote from: Ishina on January 14, 2011, 01:21 AM
And you still believe in such a source 100%, even though you acknowledge it contains contradictions...?

yes, and here's why: Let's assume that even 10% of the verses seem like contradictions and untruths to me (even though I honestly believe they're far far less than that), then given that I'm convinced in the rest (90%) then chances are I'm simply misreading those 10% for whatever reason.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #399 - January 14, 2011, 01:30 AM

Wow... I honestly don't know what to say to that. I'm dumbstruck.

You base your life on such a flimsy rationalisation?

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #400 - January 14, 2011, 01:30 AM

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 01:16 AM
You certainly are amongst the best of believers:

Quran 5:101 O you who believe! Do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you.

that's not how I undestand this verse.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #401 - January 14, 2011, 01:33 AM

Yusuf Ali:

[005:101] O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Quran is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Shakir:

[005:101] O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.

Pickthall:

[005:101] O ye who believe! Ask not of things which, if they were made unto you, would trouble you; but if ye ask of them when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made known unto you. Allah pardoneth this, for Allah is Forgiving, Clement.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #402 - January 14, 2011, 01:34 AM

"O you who believe, do not befriend outsiders who never cease to wish you harm; they even wish to see you suffer. Hatred flows out of their mouths and what they hide in their chests is far worse. We thus clarify the revelations for you, if you understand." [3:108]

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #403 - January 14, 2011, 01:41 AM

@ Isalme

The verse means: don't ask questions that would result in imposing more difficult rituals or forbidding mor things. The next verse says that the Isaraelites used to ask all sorts of questions which resulted in a religion that is difficult to practice and they later rejected these new (stricter) revelations.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #404 - January 14, 2011, 01:50 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 14, 2011, 01:28 AM
chances are I'm simply misreading those 10% for whatever reason.

Had you similarly abandoned rational scepticism in other aspects of your life (backed by postmodernist bollocks like "people can see whatever they want in a text"), you'd hardly survive another year in this world.

It simply boils down to blind faith in the infallibility of one instruction manual, being absolutely no different to your pious contemporaries that you would otherwise deem deluded or 'misguided' for following a different manual.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #405 - January 14, 2011, 01:51 AM

As dont believe in of the so-called scientific miracle claims of the Quran, and you say that you are confused by some verses, and you obviously werent there to witness anything, then how can you have 100% belief in the supernatural claims made this man?

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #406 - January 14, 2011, 01:51 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 14, 2011, 01:25 AM
LOOOL! No, because it's not up to me to decide their fate. But that's only theologiccally speaking. If I were a woman and I didn't want the baby in my belly, i sure as hell will get rid of it.

What makes you think I give a wan emaciated damn about your personal opinion? Keep it theological man. I want to explore the ethics of abortion from the vantage of the aborted. Are they better or worse off? Before you dip your bucket into this one, take a moment to review my argument in full here:

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14097.0
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #407 - January 14, 2011, 01:56 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 14, 2011, 01:41 AM
@ Isalme

The verse means: don't ask questions that would result in imposing more difficult rituals or forbidding mor things. The next verse says that the Isaraelites used to ask all sorts of questions which resulted in a religion that is difficult to practice and they later rejected these new (stricter) revelations.

Well thats a good enough answer. So why not ask difficult questions then?

In case you're wondering why I ask, I suspect that they were asking all sorts of questions as you'd expect, the type you find on forums like this. But of course he wasnt in a position to make claims of 'I dont understand'.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #408 - January 14, 2011, 01:57 AM

again, theologically speaking i have no right to take one's life because i think they might go to paradise..

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #409 - January 14, 2011, 01:58 AM

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 01:56 AM
Well thats a good enough answer. So why not ask difficult questions then?

In case you're wondering why I ask, I suspect that they were asking all sorts of questions as you'd expect, the type you find on forums like this. But of course he wasnt in a position to make claims of 'I dont understand'.

not the conclusion you get when you read the next verse about the Israelites.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #410 - January 14, 2011, 02:03 AM

Quote from: arX on January 14, 2011, 01:50 AM
Had you similarly abandoned rational scepticism in other aspects of your life (backed by postmodernist bollocks like "people can see whatever they want in a text"), you'd hardly survive another year in this world.

It simply boils down to blind faith in the infallibility of one instruction manual, being absolutely no different to your pious contemporaries that you would otherwise deem deluded or 'misguided' for following a different manual.

you could read the first part of my conversation with Hassan if you want.. i explain things in a bit more detail.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8392.msg208696#msg208696

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #411 - January 14, 2011, 02:04 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 14, 2011, 01:58 AM
not the conclusion you get when you read the next verse about the Israelites.

Why not say it will give further problems and explain them as he just did. Rather than saying "dont ask difficult questions" - sounds like a diversionary tactic to me.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #412 - January 14, 2011, 02:06 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 14, 2011, 01:57 AM
again, theologically speaking i have no right to take one's life because i think they might go to paradise..

Did you read my argument? I answered the most common objections to abortion. If you manage to poke holes in it, I will show you something special.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #413 - January 14, 2011, 02:12 AM

donatelo

Quote
I owe you absolutely nothing as well. If I were to shoot you cold dead and take all your money, wouldn't that be immoral / injustice? You can owe someone absolutely nothing, all that means is that you don't have to provide someone with any benefit, it doesn't mean you can actively harm the other person (such as, eternal roasting in the fires of hell) just because you owe that person nothing.

With God it’s different. Not only He owes me absolutely nothing, I owe him everything including my very being and soul. So he can do with it as He pleases.

I submit to God simply because I believe this is only fair, regardless of fire/paradise. If someone gave me money and told me they'd come back later to reclaim it, I'd most certainly hand them back the money, regardless of whether I hated that person or loved them, regardless of whether they needed it or not, and regardless of whether they could punish me for not giving them back the money.

Now I believe that my life and my very being is God's... So I have no other option but to live this life in submission to its owner, regardless of the fact that He doesn't need my submission, and regardless of whether He'd punish/reward me. Should it make any difference if I knew that the person whom I owe the money, would shred it to tiny pieces once i pay them back what I owed them? No.

The other reason why I submit to God is indeed love, and lastly fear of fire, but these two, to me, are besides the point anyway. I have a duty of submitting my life to its rightful owner (worshipping God), that's the bottom line.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #414 - January 14, 2011, 02:22 AM

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 02:04 AM
Why not say it will give further problems and explain them as he just did. Rather than saying "dont ask difficult questions" - sounds like a diversionary tactic to me.

i'm not sure you got my point. suppose you know your kid spends too many hours watching TV. One day, he comes to you and asks wherher it's OK for him to spend a lot of time watching TV, at this point, although you were willing to let his exaggerated self-indulgence go without restriction, now you have to give him the right answer: NO, it's not OK... you can only watch TV 1 hour/day. Your kid is likely to throw tantrums and ignore your instructions (to his detriment, of course).

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #415 - January 14, 2011, 02:28 AM

How do I owe anything to god? I didn't ask him to make me, nor did I make any agreements with him. Unless I've made a contract with him agreeing to any conditions, I owe him zilch. I don't remember ever making any such agreement - and I'm sure neither do you.

Furthermore, 'god' says in the quran that he is 'the most merciful', repeatedly. When he says that in his own words to humans, he is in fact making a promise to be merciful, and in fact, he does owe it to humans to be 'the most merciful' since he has promised that in his own words.

If god existed, sure, he'd be more powerful than humans hence he'd be able to break his promise and we won't be able to force him to follow through on his promise, however, power alone is no excuse for you to not call a spade a spade, and not call unjust / cruel behavior unjust cruel.

You're paying some superb mental gymnastics and acrobatics to continue believing in an absurd concept that doesn't make sense. You'd get the olympic medal many times over if you could perform such gymnatics in real life

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #416 - January 14, 2011, 02:29 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 14, 2011, 02:06 AM
Did you read my argument? I answered the most common objections to abortion. If you manage to poke holes in it, I will show you something special.

yes i did, we are not given the option to make a martyr of an unborn baby or indeed any other babies (or men).

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #417 - January 14, 2011, 02:31 AM

Quote from: donatelo on January 14, 2011, 02:28 AM
How do I owe anything to god? I didn't ask him to make me, nor did I make any agreements with him. Unless I've made a contract with him agreeing to any conditions, I owe him zilch. I don't remember ever making any such agreement - and I'm sure neither do you.

Furthermore, 'god' says in the quran that he is 'the most merciful', repeatedly. When he says that in his own words to humans, he is in fact making a promise to be merciful, and in fact, he does owe it to humans to be 'the most merciful' since he has promised that in his own words.

If god existed, sure, he'd be more powerful than humans hence he'd be able to break his promise and we won't be able to force him to follow through on his promise, however, power alone is no excuse for you to not call a spade a spade, and not call unjust / cruel behavior unjust cruel.

You're paying some superb mental gymnastics and acrobatics to continue believing in an absurd concept that doesn't make sense. You'd get the olympic medal many times over if you could perform such gymnatics in real life

donatelo, i need to ask you a question. I hope you don't mind. how old are you? I'm not asking for an exact number. Give your age roughly. Like, are you between 15 and 20? older than that range or younger?

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #418 - January 14, 2011, 02:36 AM

early 20s, why?

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #419 - January 14, 2011, 02:38 AM

Its a false analogy. Here we are talking about an omnicient & omnipotent creator talking to his creation, not a father talking to a petulant 1 year old, who doesnt have the capability to understand.

It doesnt matter to me anyway, it was only a passing comment on the methods you employed to discard the personally troubling questions & how it might mean you are a better muslim. In reality I think its part of the same phenomenon employed by all faiths.

Having said that, I'd appreciate your response to this

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 01:51 AM
As dont believe in of the so-called scientific miracle claims of the Quran, and you say that you are confused by some verses, and you obviously werent there to witness anything, then how can you have 100% belief in the supernatural claims made this man?

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