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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi from on the fence muslim

 (Read 119759 times)
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  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #510 - February 09, 2011, 02:27 AM

    Quote
    Is God infinite? If God is infinite, why does he have a throne, debunker?


    yes, He's infinite, but i don't claim to be able to grasp the notion of infinity, or specifically, how exactly this notion applies to God.

    In any case, let's speak in terms of the mathematical notion of infinity. You can have bounded, yet infinite spaces. 

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #511 - February 09, 2011, 02:50 AM

    So we should understand the Koran with the best knowledge we have today? (As opposed to how it would have been understood in 7th century Hijaz).

    If God is infinite, are the 8 angels that will uphold his throne during the Event, after the heavens have been split, also infinite?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #512 - February 09, 2011, 05:42 AM

    Quote
    So we should understand the Koran with the best knowledge we have today? (As opposed to how it would have been understood in 7th century Hijaz).

    No, the mathematical example, I just given you, is just to explain how, in certain situations, the notion of infinity is prone to be perceived as pardoxical (or even contradictory) when it really isn't.

    Quote
    If God is infinite, are the 8 angels that will uphold his throne during the Event, after the heavens have been split, also infinite?

    Again, you're assuming that I know how exactly the notion of infinity applies to God, and you're even attributing a physical property (weight) to God.

    In any case, you can speculate whatever you want: for example, the angels being God's words carrying His throne, etc, etc.

    I hope you won't ask me, next, whether God can create a rock so heavy, He cannot carry.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #513 - February 09, 2011, 06:29 AM

    1. Then how should we understand the Koran if not with the best knowledge we have today? Should we understand it the way Ibn Kathir did? If its 'no' again, I hope you can give me a clue at least.

    2. If we can not understand the 8 angels carrying the throne, then why mention it? Wouldn't the limited size of the book be better utilized by some useful advice to humans? (e.g. Shia's will be right and Sunnis will be wrong, every leader will come from Ahl-ul-bait, no more need for divisions in ummah)

    3. I will go and think about this smart puzzle you gave me about the rock

    4. How much would you be willing to bet (of course, if gambling was not haram) that you will either leave this forum or leave Islam before you reach your 3000 posts here? I guarantee it.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #514 - February 09, 2011, 07:47 AM

    Quote
    1. Then how should we understand the Koran if not with the best knowledge we have today? Should we understand it the way Ibn Kathir did? If its 'no' again, I hope you can give me a clue at least.


    oh, i thought you were specifically referring to that math example.
    no. you can read Ibn Kathir or whatever, but you should interpret the Quran the way you, personally, honestly think it should be interpreted (and no, the nineteentoligist approach doesn't count as valid, in case you were wondering).

    Quote
    2. If we can not understand the 8 angels carrying the throne, then why mention it? Wouldn't the limited size of the book be better utilized by some useful advice to humans? (e.g. Shia's will be right and Sunnis will be wrong, every leader will come from Ahl-ul-bait, no more need for divisions in ummah)

    why can't you understand it? Didn’t you understand my previous answer? How about I tell you a cute little story from the Isalmic lore, very relevant to your questions, which I'm sure will help drive home the point?

    Legend has it, that one day, Satan took the form of a poor wayfarer and came by the house of a man, who devoted his entire life to persistent worship, and asked him for food and water, which the man generously provided. After filling his belly, and quenching his thirst, Satan looked at the man and noted that he seemed wise enough as to probably be able to quench the fire of doubt raging inside his (Satan’s) heart. The man, being ever willing to help needy lost souls, encouraged Satan to discuss his doubts with him. Satan asked the man: “If God, according to Quran, made Paradise as vast as the Heavens and the Earth, then where would God keep Hell?”. The poor worshipper could not answer the question and the seed of doubt was planted in his heart.  

    Satisfied with the results, Satan moved on to his next target, a man who wasn’t particularly known for his devotion to worship, but he was rather affinitive to study. Satan repeated the same question with the studious man. He answered: “That’s really simple, if God so willed it, He could make your eye an abode for the hell bound!” At which point, Satan’s eye burst in flames, whereby he screamed in pain, and flown away! The End.  

    Cute story, is it not? Well, even if you didn’t like it, I hope you at least got the moral of the story.

    Quote
    3. I will go and think about this smart puzzle you gave me about the rock.

    Why do I detect a hint of sarcasm? I hope you should know, by now, I’m a sensitive person. But in case you weren’t mocking me, that question wasn’t a real one, anyway, so don’t get too excited. It was just an example on how even wrong questions might seem smart to some people.

    Quote
    4. How much would you be willing to bet (of course, if gambling was not haram) that you will either leave this forum or leave Islam before you reach your 3000 posts here? I guarantee it.

    Problem is I come and go as I please, so I might seem to have disappeared before the 3000 mark, only to reappear again. Would the bet still be on, in this case?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #515 - February 09, 2011, 11:18 AM

    a little peace of heaven, you mean?

    There is no need for heaven. Heaven is immoral.

    Freewill, assuming it exists, is NOT a fault, the lack of it is. Our faulty creation lies simply in our weaknesses, not in freewill.

    Again; why willingly create something that has an obvious weakness and is going to suffer tremendously for it? Presumably god could have made everything in a way that would at least exclude suffering and pain. Or is it simply a fact that our subjectively perceived suffering actually contributes to the global harmony? Is it a part of god's plan? Is it like when one looks at a piece of paper from up close and sees a satin there. But when one looks at the same piece of paper from some distance, one realizes that what one perceived as a stain really is a part of a beautiful picture?

    The Quran says: Objectively, we have no freewill because that would negate God. Subjectively, however, we do. In the absolute sense, God is responsible for everything, including our actions. But we are relatively responsible, nevertheless.

    Problem is that we can deduct (from Quran for example) that we objectively have no free will.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #516 - February 09, 2011, 03:12 PM

    Debunker,

    1. Were you joking about "19-ologist" approach being less valid than any other personal, honest approach? If not, then why is it any less valid, can it not be personal and honest as much as any other understanding of the Koran? After all, a personal interpretation implies  no final authority, no outside rules (e.g. a rule of no 19-ers). Don't you think that if a million interpretations are allowed equal status, this leads to religion being a personal thing, rather than having a role to play in community?

    2. Was your story cute? - No. Did it answer my question? - No.

    What I can't understand? - 8 is a definite number and I have no reason to believe that angels would be infinite if they existed. You say God is infinite... Wait, we also can't understand infinity... Never mind then.

    So what do you not understand about my question: God sends people a message; the message is limited in size, not infinite; why then fill it with cryptic puzzles and repetitions, instead of useful advice that people could have implemented for 1400 years already? Would it not be a better guidance? Would it not make the ummah more blessed? Would it not show clearly the difference between the straight path and error (i.e. non-Islam)?

    3. Was I sarcastic about a rock? - Yes. I do believe you started the shit.

    4. Sure.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #517 - February 09, 2011, 05:19 PM

    When I answered you that the creator was responsible for our actions, it's because the creator, I believe in, says so in the Quran: God controls absolutely everything, even our "freewill". I didn't answer that the creator was responsible because He created us faulty. Freewill, assuming it exists, is NOT a fault, the lack of it is. Our faulty creation lies simply in our weaknesses, not in freewill. Assuming science advanced to a point that one can swollow pills so as to always make the right choices (as defined by whatever authority), i don't think anyone would want to buy them.


    Assuming Allah created me, and controls absolutely everything, he created me the way I am, on purpose, correct? Regardless of if you and I consider ourselves a flawed or perfect creation, is this correct?

    If I do nothing, change nothing, continue to be who I am, the person Allah has made me on purpose, this is what awaits me:

    Those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

    What do you, as a fellow human, suggest I should do? Is it possible to avoid this fate?


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #518 - February 09, 2011, 06:19 PM

    What do you, as a fellow human, suggest I should do? Is it possible to avoid this fate?

    Yep, just do what debunker does..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #519 - February 09, 2011, 08:27 PM

    @ ALM

    Quote
    1. Were you joking about "19-ologist" approach being less valid than any other personal, honest approach? If not, then why is it any less valid, can it not be personal and honest as much as any other understanding of the Koran? After all, a personal interpretation implies  no final authority, no outside rules (e.g. a rule of no 19-ers). Don't you think that if a million interpretations are allowed equal status, this leads to religion being a personal thing, rather than having a role to play in community?

    Was I joking? Yes. Do I believe all interpretations are equally honest? no.

    Quote
    2. Was your story cute? - No.

    That was expected.
    Quote
    Did it answer my question? - No.

    This one wasn’t. Here’s a direct answer: God simply makes it possible for 8 angels to carry the throne. In fact, God doesn’t need any angels, all He has to say is Be! And it becomes! Being a creator, He chooses to create angels capable of carrying His throne. Think of those able angels as God’s “Be!”.
    Quote
    What I can't understand? - 8 is a definite number and I have no reason to believe that angels would be infinite if they existed. You say God is infinite... Wait, we also can't understand infinity... Never mind then.

    OFF TOPIC: do you think it’s impossible for every single angel, to be infinite, assuming angels existed?
    Back to topic: See above.

    Quote
    So what do you not understand about my question: God sends people a message; the message is limited in size, not infinite;

    Indeed, God even says in the Quran, that not even endless Seas of Ink can be sufficient for all His words.  
    Quote
    why then fill it with cryptic puzzles and repetitions,

    I personally believe the (main) message of the Quran can probably be summarized in 5 (five) pages. All else is indeed basically repetition (and imagery). So one would expect after all this repetition, people would finally get it and at least do one thing right: worship no deity, besides the creator. How many Muslims can grasp this simple command? I’d say exceedingly few. Assuming they’re not worshipping other deities, the majority of Muslims are actually busy worshipping themselves. With repition, in different contexts, using different stories and images, makes it hard to deny the message was vague.
    Quote
    instead of useful advice that people could have implemented for 1400 years already?

    Like who should be leading, after Muhammed? And after, after Muhammed? Shall it also address all their possible future problems, basically babysitting them all the way through?
    Quote
    Would it not be a better guidance?

    Yeah, but only if that was the purpose of Quran. The Quran, as I view it, is mainly a book giving a limited glimpse on the nature of God. It’s a book that attempts to define God, and man’s relationship to God. Sure, there are all those verses about divorce, war, rituals, etc, but they’re not many.  
    Quote
    Would it not make the ummah more blessed?

    No, not necessarily. If the “ummah” is so divided regarding as simple a command as worshipping only God, then I can’t see why one should be optimistic they would have been better off if they received commands on future living related issues.
    Quote
    Would it not show clearly the difference between the straight path and error (i.e. non-Islam)?

    No, not necessarily, people basically believe what they want to believe.

    Quote
    3. Was I sarcastic about a rock? - Yes. I do believe you started the shit.

     
    let’s just say, I wasn’t sarcastic. So I didn’t start this shit, you did.

    Quote
    4. Sure.

    That’s generous of you!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #520 - February 09, 2011, 08:46 PM

    ALM - the adversarial nature of your debate, reminds me very much of a submitter I know - are you all trained the art of discussing in this manner?

    My submitter friend thinks all Muslims (apart of submitters of course) are stupid - they follow the hadith & worship themselves & only the super intelligent can see this 19 miracle - in fact that is the real test from God.  They are the most open minded & advanced of all Muslims because they accept all Gods scriptures (but of course the Quran is the final one as the others have been corrupted) grin12

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #521 - February 09, 2011, 08:53 PM

    @ Ishina

    Quote
    Assuming Allah created me, and controls absolutely everything, he created me the way I am, on purpose, correct?

    yes.
     
    Quote
    Regardless of if you and I consider ourselves a flawed or perfect creation, is this correct?

    yes.

    Quote
    If I do nothing, change nothing, continue to be who I am, the person Allah has made me on purpose, this is what awaits me:

    Those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

    What do you, as a fellow human, suggest I should do?


    you asked me yes/no questions above, so i had to answer with either yes or no. I answered yes, to both questions, which implies that the answer to this question should be: *you* can do nothing (without "freewill").

    Quote
    Is it possible to avoid this fate?

    yes (regardless of freewill).

    Ishina, you asked me how I felt, and I told you that it felt to me like a paradox that can only be understood in relative terms, but your questions above are designed to extract binary reponses, to highlight a contradiction, and that's obviously how you feel about it.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #522 - February 09, 2011, 09:43 PM

    @ Kenan

    Quote
    Again; why willingly create something that has an obvious weakness and is going to suffer tremendously for it? Presumably god could have made everything in a way that would at least exclude suffering and pain.

    Free-will necessarily implies pain and suffering. Besides, it was man, of all creation, who accepted the gift of free will and the responsibility that comes with it.

    Quote
    Or is it simply a fact that our subjectively perceived suffering actually contributes to the global harmony? Is it a part of god's plan? Is it like when one looks at a piece of paper from up close and sees a satin there. But when one looks at the same piece of paper from some distance, one realizes that what one perceived as a stain really is a part of a beautiful picture?

    I think you’re speaking about the problem of evil in general, including suffering not only due to man’s actions, but also due to things outside the consequences of freewill like natural disasters. Well, I still stick my previous answer (previous post).   

    Quote
    Problem is that we can deduct (from Quran for example) that we objectively have no free will.

    but why is that a problem? Anything more than subjectively enjoying free will is to deny that God exists.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #523 - February 09, 2011, 11:30 PM

    Debunker

    What are your thoughts about the following verses - what are they doing in a book that is supposedly a guide to humanity for all eternity ?

    33.53 . O ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time , unless permission be granted you . But if ye are invited , enter , and , when , your meal is ended , then disperse . Linger not for conversation . Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet , and he would be shy of ( asking ) you ( to go ) ; but Allah is not shy of the truth . And when ye ask of them ( the wives of the Prophet ) anything , ask it of them from behind a curtain . That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts . And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah , nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him . Lo! that in Allah ' s sight would be an enormity .

    1.[49.2] O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #524 - February 10, 2011, 03:08 AM

    ALM - the adversarial nature of your debate, reminds me very much of a submitter I know - are you all trained the art of discussing in this manner?

    My submitter friend thinks all Muslims (apart of submitters of course) are stupid - they follow the hadith & worship themselves & only the super intelligent can see this 19 miracle - in fact that is the real test from God.  They are the most open minded & advanced of all Muslims because they accept all Gods scriptures (but of course the Quran is the final one as the others have been corrupted) grin12


    My dear dear Islame,
     far away hug
    You might be 'on to something' with this 19er madhhab theory. Debunker, however, replied to me despite the adversarial nature of the debate, so why should worry about it? What would you have done differently? I completely respect you, Islame and will take your advice seriously (does not mean I will agree).

    debunker,
    Thank you for your replies. Of course, I don't agree with them at all and that's pretty much why I like debating you. If you don't mind I will say why I don't like your replies after I get a little rest.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #525 - February 10, 2011, 12:43 PM

    yes (regardless of freewill).


    How? How can I avoid this fate? Is the answer in the Qur'an?

    How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and (after) they bore witness that the messenger is true and after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

    As for such, their guerdon is that on them rests the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined. They will abide therein. Their doom will not be lightened, neither will they be reprieved; Save those who afterward repent and do right. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Lo! those who disbelieve after their (profession of) belief, and afterward grow violent in disbelief: their repentance will not be accepted. And such are those who are astray.

    Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.
    ~ Al-Imran 86-91

    Ishina, you asked me how I felt, and I told you that it felt to me like a paradox that can only be understood in relative terms, but your questions above are designed to extract binary reponses, to highlight a contradiction, and that's obviously how you feel about it.


    They are honest questions designed to extract honest responses, in a mutual discussion. Binary or elaborate responses are just as good as long as they answer the question and as long as they are truthful.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #526 - February 10, 2011, 01:12 PM

    @ paloma

    There are exactly 6666 verses in the Quran, about 6 of which are of this nature, so we have 0.09% of verses like that.

    Of course, I’m sure you think this is a very high percentage of verses that directly serve Muhammed, so one must conclude that the Quran was a self-serving book.

    I, on the other hand, am not at liberty to think as you do, because I believe that the Quran is true and that God loved his prophet.

    Muhammed was practically their king. All he had to do is to tell them to lower their voices and to not hang around too long in his house. No one would have been angry with him, and everyone would have just complied with the orders of their king. But they also viewed him as a friend and were quite attached to him, he couldn’t just be frank with them. Hence God intervened on the behalf of his prophet. 

    In short, to answer your question, my thoughts are these verses show just how much God loved his prophet… I know, I know, 0.09% of verses is just too many verses to send this particular message, but hey, that’s what I believe.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #527 - February 10, 2011, 01:21 PM

    Quote
    How? How can I avoid this fate?

    Assuming we have no freewill, at all, then we can't even predict if our beliefs and convictions would change in the future.

    As to the verses you listed they're just a general guide on this.

    Quote
    Is the answer in the Qur'an?

    Yes. God does as He pleases.

    Quote
    They are honest questions designed to extract honest responses, in a mutual discussion. Binary or elaborate responses are just as good as long as they answer the question and as long as they are truthful.

    I wasn't implying your questions weren't honest.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #528 - February 10, 2011, 01:22 PM

    3) Why is Quran not structured to be clearly understood without any doubts if it is guidance for all mankind  


    Actually this gave me an idea.  Imagine if every time Mo "received" a revelation it had a number in front of it.

    2076 : Also forbidden to you are married women except those your right hands possess.

    Imagine how brilliant it would have been if we then wrote down these verses in numerical order only to find that they made perfect sense.  The Muslims experienced events in an apparently random order, but indicating a number at the start of each revelation would show that the author knew this random order and assigned number appropriately in order to present a book which makes perfect sense when read in this order.

    As opposed to the current order which flits backwards and forwards.

    You know, just this would have made me a Muslim because there would be no way anyone could pull this off.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #529 - February 10, 2011, 01:54 PM

    @ paloma

    There are exactly 6666 verses in the Quran, about 6 of which are of this nature, so we have 0.09% of verses like that.

    Of course, I’m sure you think this is a very high percentage of verses that directly serve Muhammed, so one must conclude that the Quran was a self-serving book.


    I hadn´t thought of it in terms of percentages, but I admit that I find it absurd that these verses are in an eternal guide to humankind.

    Quote
    In short, to answer your question, my thoughts are these verses show just how much God loved his prophet… I know, I know, 0.09% of verses is just too many verses to send this particular message, but hey, that’s what I believe.


    That´s perfectly fine with me, I have no problem with you believing that. As they saying goes, to each his own.

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #530 - February 12, 2011, 01:11 AM

    @ paloma

    There are exactly 6666 verses in the Quran,



    Are you sure? How did you reach this number?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #531 - February 12, 2011, 04:14 AM

    There are exactly 6666 verses in the Quran


    Are you sure? How did you reach this number?


    He is a liar!! Plain and simple! That idiot made me waste my time to actually go through whole quran (the copy I have with urdu translation) to count it myself. The exact number of verses is 6360. Even if I did any calculation mistake which I doubt because I triple checked it, this number is available by searching on google as well.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #532 - February 12, 2011, 04:16 AM

    May be there were exactly 306 verses that the goat ate when aisha and company were planning moh's funeral.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #533 - February 12, 2011, 04:35 AM

    LOL muddy, it's possible that the goat did it, but I am wondering how debunker, who has every explanation for 1000 tricky Islamic issues, came up with 6666? HOW?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #534 - February 12, 2011, 04:37 AM

    His ass is just busted! Same as the ass of Zakir Naik busted by TheRationalizer here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymf5MdwK3M8

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #535 - February 12, 2011, 04:44 AM

    I loved the video - thanks, muddy!  Afro

    debunker, are you a mason? Which degree?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #536 - February 13, 2011, 12:49 AM

    He is a liar!! Plain and simple! That idiot made me waste my time to actually go through whole quran (the copy I have with urdu translation) to count it myself. The exact number of verses is 6360. Even if I did any calculation mistake which I doubt because I triple checked it, this number is available by searching on google as well.


    what a desperate cry baby you are!

    I googled the following question:

    *how many verses in the quran?*

    and used the first answer i found. so what? 6000 or 5000, the idea stays the same, you stupid attention whore.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #537 - February 13, 2011, 12:53 AM

    Actually, no-one knows the exact number.  Tongue

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10047.msg371671#msg371671

    Quote
    From Tafsir al-Jalalayn:

    Surah 8: It has 85, 86, or 87 ayat.
    Surah 7: It has 205 or 206 ayat.
    Surah 3: It has 199 or 200 ayat.
    Surah 13: It has 43, 45 or 46 ayat.
    Surah 14:  It has 52, 54 or 55 ayat.
    Surah 23: It has  118 or 119 ayat.
    Surah 24: It has 62 or 64 ayat.

    From Tafsir Qurtubi:

    As for the number of ayat in the first Madinan copy of the Qur'an, Muhammad Ibn 'Isa said, "The number of ayat of the Qur'an in the first Madinan copy was six thousand." Abu 'Amr said, "It is the number related by the people of Kufah from the people of Madina, and they did not name anyone specifically on whom they relied in that."
    As for the Madinan copy, according to Isma'il Ibn Ja'far, it has six thousand two hundred and fourteen (6214) ayat. Al-Fadl said, "The number of ayat in the Qur'an according to the Makkans was six thousand two hundred and nineteen (6219). That is the number related by Salim and al-Kasa'i from Hamza. Al-Kasa'i attributed it to 'Ali." Muhammad said, "The number of ayat in the Qur'an according to the Basrans was six thousand two hundred and four (6204), which is the number that their Salaf passed down. As for the number of the people of Syria, Yahya Ibn al-Harith al-Dhamari said that it was six thousand two hundred and twenty six (6226). One transmission has six thousand two hundred and twenty five (6225)." Ibn Dhakwan said, "I think that Yahya did not count the Basmala."

    Vol. 1 pp. 63-64

    And Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

    As for the number of Holy Verses in the Qur'an, they are over six thousand, but there is a difference among the people about the exact number. Some say that they are no more than this number, and others raise this number by two hundred or four hundred more. It is said that they are six thousand two hundred and fourteen, or nineteen, twenty five, twenty six or thirty six Verses, as shown by Abu 'Amr al-Dani in his book, Al-Bayan.

    Vol. 1 p. 17


     yes
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #538 - February 13, 2011, 12:54 AM

    regardless, the point was NOT the eaxct number!!!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #539 - February 13, 2011, 12:56 AM

    Yeah, I know, I just like to post that.  grin12
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