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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi from on the fence muslim

 (Read 119549 times)
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  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #660 - February 13, 2011, 07:02 PM

    Quote
    How do you know you have a such thing as a soul?

    ok, let's rename it as: the non-physical "thing" in us that would explain our experiencing being alive. (or one of the proposed solutions to the *hard problem of conscienceness*).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #661 - February 13, 2011, 07:33 PM

    And how do you know a god must be responsible for your being alive?

    Because that is the only possible explanation?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #662 - February 13, 2011, 07:33 PM

    ok, let's rename it as: the non-physical "thing" in us that would explain our experiencing being alive.

    Just call it a developed brain & senses.

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  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #663 - February 13, 2011, 07:37 PM

    It's just energy like everything else, when you die it gets recycled into the universe.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #664 - February 13, 2011, 07:40 PM

    @ kenan
    Yes, he does, but that’s besides the point, and you are making it the entire point! The central message of the Quran, as far as our actions are concerned, is absolute submission to God (6:162). Our good deeds are besides the point (25:23).


    Huh?  I thought 25:23 says this

    025.022 On the day when they behold the angels, on that day there will be no good
    tidings for the guilty; and they will cry: A forbidding ban!

    025.023 And We shall turn unto the work they did and make it scattered motes.

    025.024 Those who have earned the Garden on that day will be better in their home
    and happier in their place of noonday rest;

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  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #665 - February 13, 2011, 07:41 PM

    It's just energy like everything else, when you die it gets recycled into the universe.

    are you a pantheist?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #666 - February 13, 2011, 07:55 PM

    @ Ishina

    Ok so assuming that:

    1- the (uncreated) creator of the universe exists and he proved to you that he exists.
    2- you respect him.
    3- he made a command of your worship, not because he needs, he just demands it.

    then you still don’t see why you should oblige.

    I tried to explain to you my position by giving you the analogy of paying my dues to my debtor regardless of whether they needed it or not and regardless of whether I liked them or not, but you don’t see my point, but I think I see yours: God can never exist.



    If your dad disappeared & abandoned you as a child, would you worship him if he asked you too?

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    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #667 - February 13, 2011, 08:40 PM

    @ sobeiski
    No, I agree to the *possibility* of contradictions but that doesn't necessarily mean that there are contradictions.


    Then you can't say you agree to my point. No problem though. Now you are talking about the "*possibility* of contradictions", which means you are flip-flopping. Ishina asked you "Don't you see contradictions and untruths in the Qur'an too?" and you replied "i (definitely) see one or two... but i ignore them". You definitely see contradictions in the Quran but now you downgraded them to merely possible contradictions? Yes you did. Isn't this disingenuous on your part?

    Anyway, I can work with the "possible" qualifier further. If you say there is a real possibility the Quran contradicts itself, then there is a real possibility the Quran doesn't have the supernatural authorship you assign to it. So there is this real possibility that you submitting to this supernatural (you do it because of the Quran) being is in vain, right?

    And getting back to what we were discussing, your approach slightly differs from the Shia one in that you now don't say "no, it does say father but it really means uncle, not father", you're saying "there is a possibility 'father' means 'father', but not necessarily". And you accomplish the same thing as the Shia: the text is there, it says something you don't like, but you reject it; for you it could mean something else, or there might be some unknown possibility which would explain it all, but you really don't know what. These are "possible" contradictions only because you cannot resolve them objectively, because if you could, they wouldn't be contradictions. So what keeps you from accepting them as definite contradictions? Not some hard fact, or proof, but your desire for Islam to be true. Otherwise your world would collapse a bit, right?  

    Quote
    becuase he created my soul.. no one else did.


    How do you know that?

    Quote
    ok, let's rename it as: the non-physical "thing" in us that would explain our experiencing being alive


    Soul is a concept invented by polytheist infidels (read "Greeks", or if not Greeks then whoever they stole it from); how does that square with the purity of Islam? And furthermore, we experience being alive not because of a "non-physical thing", but as isLame said, because of the brain. There's nothing non-physical about it. That's why anesthesia works among other things. So you submit to "Allah" based on a multitude of flawed premises, one of them being the existence of this "soul", and another that "Allah" created this (imaginary) thing. That doesn't sound too good, right?

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #668 - February 13, 2011, 08:57 PM

    @ sobeiski

    Quote
    Then you can't say you agree to my point. No problem though. Now you are talking about the "*possibility* of contradictions", which means you are flip-flopping. Ishina asked you "Don't you see contradictions and untruths in the Qur'an too?" and you replied "i (definitely) see one or two... but i ignore them". You definitely see contradictions in the Quran but now you downgraded them to merely possible contradictions? Yes you did. Isn't this disingenuous on your part?


    Here's the first one: The Quran always *describes* nature, it never *explains* it except in one instance only. It explains the job of mountains. It says mountains are to stabilize the earth!!! Given what I know about mountains this job description in the Quran seems very wrong! I know a 100 posters might jump in and add an endless list of supposed scientific errors of the Quran, but I honestly don't see them as *valid* errors. Why? Becuase in all the other cases, we have *descriptions* of nature, we don't have *explanations* of nature.

    For example, what's scientifically wrong about you saying that sunrises and sunsets are beautiful? Nothing is wrong about that. Even though the sun doesn't rise nor sets. Even though you know that, you still use the language known to us to deliver a certain message. If your goal was to actually explain the phenomena of sunrise/sunset, then you have to tell us what actually happens.

    What's the big error in saying that the earth being flat (as oppsed to being hilly all over, for example) is something to thank God for?

    Now, back to the verses of the mountains, those are different from all other verses, because a job is assigned to the mountains and the job description is... wrong. At least that's what i know. What do I do? I put this in a far away corner, and ignore it.

    This whole thing is different from the father/uncle example. In that case, it's like saying that the color red means blue, when red means nothing but red.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #669 - February 13, 2011, 08:58 PM

    Debunker,

    A.

    How about that intro? I know you feel silly about posting it now, but I won't laugh and I think it is generally a nice gesture of any member of the forum. I and many other members now waste their time asking you questions with an assumption that you have some orthodox Muslim beliefs, only to get a glimpse of yet another unexpected, (unorthodox), debunker-Muslim view.

    If you don't want to, then here's my summary of what I have figured out about your Islam from reading 1-3% of you posts on the forum:

    i. Tafsir of the Koran is a personal effort, there is no authority to for correct interpretation.

    ii. Most Muslims are guilty of shirk, as they fail to interpret Tawhid the way debunker does.

    iii. The Koran is a mysterious book about a mysterious creator, any commandments there are mostly to help Muslims know God, rather than (orthodox view) to base their actions on or use it as moral guide.

    Am I right on the 3 pillars of debunker-Islam?

    B.

    Why statue of David?

    C.

    Did the verse say about  God descending to earth? - That was my initial honest understanding, but upon reading it again I realized that I would not understand what it meant at all, if I was to assume it is truth from creator of the Universe.

    D.

    I am glad you accepted the challenge, but please keep in mind that you can prove me wrong very easily if you go for quantity over quality.

    E. Take a brake brother. You are alone against the army of infidels (unless you have a throng of angels helping you).


    Everyone else, who uses endearing Russified nicknames for me,

    Thank you. However, I think it is a dangerous precedent, because it may give an impression to newcomers, who are not aware of what I have declared about my identity, that I am Russian. Please stop. Even though it is very cute.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #670 - February 13, 2011, 09:01 PM

    I have no idea what pantheist is *_*? In order to make to brain work you need energy, it's the basic law of the universe everything needs energy to work so I just assume the previous. I don't really disprove the theory of having a soul, but I don't like how the meaning and concept of a soul is skewed by different religions.


    I know this may not having anything to do directly with the concept of the soul, but this an interesting video of a woman who talks about how it felt to go through a stroke. I think it relates to this because having a stroke is like becoming brain dead. Is this similar to being on the verge of death, the death of the individual? In religion it always emphasizes the concept of still being able to keep that individual thought. However, individual thought occurs in the brain, what happens when your brain rots, or people who are brain dead? Anyways if you're interested, take a look.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #671 - February 13, 2011, 09:02 PM

    Zebedionok,

    I was talking about Gods physical size as it is indicated by a verse where he will be carried down from heaven by 8 angels. Assuming this was a verse from a perfect book, I would expect it to be either 1. a helpful description of God, or 2. I would expect it to be replaced by a useful (in this life) verse and not just waste Muslims' time with some metaphorical descriptions of infinity that people can not understand. Either God can be described (in part), in which case I am assuming his weight (earth's gravity pulling on God) can be supported by eight angels, he has hands, face, etc, or we can not imagine anything about him in which case - why waste time with hundreds of inaccurate descriptions: powerful, knowing, big, merciful, etc? Why do we need ibn Kathir or similar apes to interpret the word of the Most high, (the infinite), the perfect? Was ibn Kathir at least a rasool, nabiy? - No, just another ape. It is clear that God had to send volumes and volumes of his own tafsirs in addition to the Koran if he did not want Muslims to accuse each other of all kinds of evils due to different interpretations.


    You mean, these verses?

    [69:16-7]
    and heaven shall be split, for upon that day it shall be very frail, and the angels shall stand upon its borders, and upon that day eight shall carry above them the Throne of thy Lord.

    I think the orthodox position is that these verses are among the 'mutashabihat,' or the unclear, allegorical verses. People don't know if they're literal or whatnot, and they avoid making definite assertions one way or the other.

    Muslims get worked up about this stuff. I recently read Sharh al-'Aqeedat al-Wasitiyah, and in it it makes a big fuss about the exact nature of Allah's 'Istawa,' or 'rising over' his throne. But of course, we need not tread so softly in interpreting the Qur'an. If it looks like what it's saying is literal, then it may well be.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #672 - February 13, 2011, 09:14 PM

    @Sakura02

    I've seen that video before. It is indeed very interesing,
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #673 - February 13, 2011, 09:17 PM

    @ Alex

    Quote
    How about that intro? I know you feel silly about posting it now, but I won't laugh and I think it is generally a nice gesture of any member of the forum. I and many other members now waste their time asking you questions with an assumption that you have some orthodox Muslim beliefs, only to get a glimpse of yet another unexpected, (unorthodox), debunker-Muslim view.


    I am an unorthodox Muslim.

    Quote
    If you don't want to, then here's my summary of what I have figured out about your Islam from reading 1-3% of you posts on the forum:

    i. Tafsir of the Koran is a personal effort, there is no authority to for correct interpretation.

    True, that's what I believe.

    Quote
    ii. Most Muslims are guilty of shirk, as they fail to interpret Tawhid the way debunker does.

    The only reason I refrain from fully endorsing that statement above is that if I do, then I'd be playing God myself, so although I'm tempted to agree, I just won't.

    Quote
    iii. The Koran is a mysterious book about a mysterious creator, any commandments there are mostly to help Muslims know God, rather than (orthodox view) to base their actions on or use it as moral guide.

    I agree to the bolded part.

    Quote
    Am I right on the 3 pillars of debunker-Islam?


    LOL! No. I'm not debubking Islam, but I do think that every Muslim should seek their own version of the religion (why is it OK for a bunch of people to decide for the rest of us how to understand our religion, but not for everyone of us to try to understand the religion in heir own way?).

    Quote
    B.

    Why statue of David?

    I though it would be a nice gesture (a debunker could use a slingshot).

    Quote
    C.

    Did the verse say about  God descending to earth? - That was my initial honest understanding, but upon reading it again I realized that I would not understand what it meant at all, if I was to assume it is truth from creator of the Universe.


    Read the few verses before it and you shall understand it.

    Quote
    D.

    I am glad you accepted the challenge, but please keep in mind that you can prove me wrong very easily if you go for quantity over quality.

    Are you saying I'm guilty of this behavior? I'm all quantity, no quality? No wonder they didn't vote for me.  Cry

    Quote
    E. Take a brake brother. You are alone against the army of infidels (unless you have a throng of angels helping you).

    Will do.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #674 - February 13, 2011, 09:19 PM

    You mean, these verses?

    [69:16-7]
    and heaven shall be split, for upon that day it shall be very frail, and the angels shall stand upon its borders, and upon that day eight shall carry above them the Throne of thy Lord.

    I think the orthodox position is that these verses are among the 'mutashabihat,' or the unclear, allegorical verses. People don't know if they're literal or whatnot, and they avoid making definite assertions one way or the other.

    Muslims get worked up about this stuff. I recently read Sharh al-'Aqeedat al-Wasitiyah, and in it it makes a big fuss about the exact nature of Allah's 'Istawa,' or 'rising over' his throne. But of course, we need not tread so softly in interpreting the Qur'an. If it looks like what it's saying is literal, then it may well be.


    But before that verse, i think in verse 14, th eQuran already says the earth has been destroyed, so i don't know how Alex got the impression that this verse was talking about God descending on earth (when it's been destroyed).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #675 - February 13, 2011, 09:39 PM

    Dunno about that. I think verse 14 is probably just talking about the destruction of the mountains, the flattening of the earth, as is supposed to happen at the Islamic eschaton. The earth becomes a plain, it's not destroyed, as far as I understand.

    [20:102-7]
    On the day the Trumpet is blown; and We shall muster the sinners upon that day with eyes staring, whispering one to another, ’You have tarried only ten nights.’ We know very well what they will say, when the justest of them in the way will say, ’You have tarried only a day. They will question thee concerning the mountains. Say: ’My Lord will scatter them as ashes; then He will leave them a level hollow wherein thou wilt see no crookedness neither any curving.’
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #676 - February 13, 2011, 09:43 PM

    If your dad disappeared & abandoned you as a child, would you worship him if he asked you too?

    well?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #677 - February 13, 2011, 09:44 PM

    @ sobeiski

    Here's the first one: The Quran always *describes* nature, it never *explains* it except in one instance only.


    So in the single instance ever, where the Quran tries to explain nature, it fails. So if we go with your assertion, then the Quran has a fail rate of 100% when it comes to explain how things work, right?

    Quote
    I honestly don't see them as *valid* errors. Why? Becuase in all the other cases, we have *descriptions* of nature, we don't have *explanations* of nature.

    Nevertheless, these descriptions are not only wrong, they reveal that they were made by a being with a limited perspective, a human one. It's not speaking like a person outside of the universe that has a complete view of things, it speaks like a limited being on a limited rock orbiting the sun.

    Quote
    For example, what's scientifically wrong about you saying that sunrises and sunsets are beautiful? Nothing is wrong about that. Even though the sun doesn't rise nor sets. Even though you know that

    Saying the sun rises and sets *is* scientifically wrong. These expressions didn't appear in the 21st century, but were transmitted since the times our ancestors had no idea that the sun doesn't orbit the earth. We *now* know that, but they didn't. The Quran says this "Allah" knew people will scrutinize the Quran, and affirms *it is* divine in origin. What a good opportunity to reveal scientific facts, to explain how things work. It fails to do so because 7th century Bedouins could not do that.
     
    Quote
    What's the big error in saying that the earth being flat (as oppsed to being hilly all over, for example) is something to thank God for?


    Let's take 78:8. The earth is flat not as opposed to being hilly all over, that's not what the text says. It is simply an invention to say so, since you have nothing indicating such a thing. You read that *into* the text, not out of the text, it's an invention.

    Quote
    Now, back to the verses of the mountains, those are different from all other verses, because a job is assigned to the mountains and the job description is... wrong. At least that's what i know. What do I do? I put this in a far away corner, and ignore it.


    Why?

    Quote
    This whole thing is different from the father/uncle example. In that case, it's like saying that the color red means blue, when red means nothing but red.


    That's why it's not different. In both cases you know you have something that contradicts your belief; nevertheless, you refuse to budge.


    So is this issue with the mountains a contradiction or just a "possible" contradiction?
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #678 - February 13, 2011, 09:52 PM

    Quote from: debunker
    becuase he created my soul.. no one else did.


    How do you know that?
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #679 - February 13, 2011, 10:10 PM

    @ Alex

    Read the few verses before it and you shall understand it.

    Are you saying I'm guilty of this behavior? I'm all quantity, no quality? No wonder they didn't vote for me.  Cry



    You mean the verses before helped you to understand clearly the verse in question? It did not do that for me.

    Of course I am not accusing you of anything like it, my dear. Though I was tempted to do a statistical analysis of how many post you posted since the challenge, compared to a previous average, but that's just an ex-19er in me Smiley  No, in reality, if your reach the magic number 3000 and my prophecy is "debunked" according to debunker and no one else, I will accept that I was wrong.

    You mean, these verses?

    [69:16-7]
    and heaven shall be split, for upon that day it shall be very frail, and the angels shall stand upon its borders, and upon that day eight shall carry above them the Throne of thy Lord.

    I think the orthodox position is that these verses are among the 'mutashabihat,' or the unclear, allegorical verses. People don't know if they're literal or whatnot, and they avoid making definite assertions one way or the other.

    Muslims get worked up about this stuff. I recently read Sharh al-'Aqeedat al-Wasitiyah, and in it it makes a big fuss about the exact nature of Allah's 'Istawa,' or 'rising over' his throne. But of course, we need not tread so softly in interpreting the Qur'an. If it looks like what it's saying is literal, then it may well be.


    Right. I see no reason not to read it literally. And I also explained my theological objections to the very existence of plethora of unclear verses in a furqan.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #680 - February 13, 2011, 10:31 PM

    @ Isalme

    Quote
    If your dad disappeared & abandoned you as a child, would you worship him if he asked you too?

    No.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #681 - February 13, 2011, 10:32 PM

    @ sobeiski

    Quote
    So in the single instance ever, where the Quran tries to explain nature, it fails. So if we go with your assertion, then the Quran has a fail rate of 100% when it comes to explain how things work, right?

    Yes. but, I’ll keep it in that corner.

    Quote
    Nevertheless, these descriptions are not only wrong, they reveal that they were made by a being with a limited perspective, a human one. It's not speaking like a person outside of the universe that has a complete view of things, it speaks like a limited being on a limited rock orbiting the sun.

    If we were Martians, the Quran would have sounded Martian, as it should.

    Quote
    Saying the sun rises and sets *is* scientifically wrong. These expressions didn't appear in the 21st century, but were transmitted since the times our ancestors had no idea that the sun doesn't orbit the earth. We *now* know that, but they didn't.

    So why do you still use these terms, even though you know they’re wrong? Because using other terms would make you sound very awkward, no?

    Quote
    The Quran says this "Allah" knew people will scrutinize the Quran, and affirms *it is* divine in origin. What a good opportunity to reveal scientific facts, to explain how things work. It fails to do so because 7th century Bedouins could not do that.

    I believe if God said, in the Quran, things like that the earth we stand firmly upon is actually moving really really fast, no one would have believed it (including Muhammed himself), and the religion would have died, even before it was born, for trying to convey an *irrelevant* idea (without the guarantee of impressing anyone from the future).

    Quote
    Let's take 78:8. The earth is flat not as opposed to being hilly all over, that's not what the text says. It is simply an invention to say so, since you have nothing indicating such a thing. You read that *into* the text, not out of the text, it's an invention.

    Here’s what I said exactly:  (as opposed to being hilly all over, for example). I used parenthesis precisely because I wanted to explain to you that saying the earth is flat doesn’t necessarily mean the earth cannot be a globe, especially that the Quran sounded as if it’s counting this “flatness” of earth as something to thank God for. I’m not going to go over the entire list of alleged scientific errors with you here. I’m just giving you a most celebrated example on a scientific error, when nothing in the text makes it necessarily so.

    Quote
    Why?

    I already explained. I’m not going to reject the entirety of a book, because a few things that don’t make sense to me. The worst that I could do is assume that what should have happened, happened and some corruption reached the Quran (I’m not saying that I believe that the Quran is corrupted, I’m just saying that believing in a possibility of corruption is only one alternative to rejecting an entire book, when I’m completely convinced in the vast majority of its verses).

    Quote
    So is this issue with the mountains a contradiction or just a "possible" contradiction?

      
    I already explained that this was an example on the seemingly definite ones (given what I know).

    Quote
    How do you know that?

    It all starts with a simple premise: all that exists is God and His creation. By “creation” I mean absolutely everything, including our thoughts and the fleeting idle moments of our lives, everything.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #682 - February 13, 2011, 10:37 PM

    @ Alex

    Quote
    You mean the verses before helped you to understand clearly the verse in question? It did not do that for me.

    No, all what you *definitely* get from that description is that it's speaking of the day of judgement.

    But really, if the purpose of that verse was imagery meant to instill awe, why then get too technical and ask questions about the possibility of that image when all what God has to do to make it possible is say: Be!

    Do you see what I'm getting at?  You say the purpose of this verse is not clear. I just given you one good purpose, but then you claim that questions regarding that image might make it unclear... you say this, despite the assumption of God's ability to do anything He wants, including making that image a possibility. Seek the message itself, rather than getting lost in the details.

    Quote
    Of course I am not accusing you of anything like it, my dear. Though I was tempted to do a statistical analysis of how many post you posted since the challenge, compared to a previous average, but that's just an ex-19er in me   No, in reality, if your reach the magic number 3000 and my prophecy is "debunked" according to debunker and no one else, I will accept that I was wrong.

     far away hug

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #683 - February 13, 2011, 10:40 PM

    Dunno about that. I think verse 14 is probably just talking about the destruction of the mountains, the flattening of the earth, as is supposed to happen at the Islamic eschaton. The earth becomes a plain, it's not destroyed, as far as I understand.

    [20:102-7]
    On the day the Trumpet is blown; and We shall muster the sinners upon that day with eyes staring, whispering one to another, ’You have tarried only ten nights.’ We know very well what they will say, when the justest of them in the way will say, ’You have tarried only a day. They will question thee concerning the mountains. Say: ’My Lord will scatter them as ashes; then He will leave them a level hollow wherein thou wilt see no crookedness neither any curving.’


    You're right. The earth is not destroyed in the sense that it ceases to exist (as I previously thought).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #684 - February 13, 2011, 10:48 PM

    anyway, Alex, this time, I'm definitely taking your advice... my break starts now. 

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #685 - February 13, 2011, 11:00 PM

    @ Isalme
    No.


    Thats why I think your automatic assumption thats we must worship a creator needs to be revised.

    Before we do we must clarify

    i) the personal sacrifices our creator made in bringing us to this world
    ii) thats this is what a truly magnificent creator would really want

    Secondly coming back to deadbeat dad, how about if he threatened to repeatedly stab you & lock you in the basement if you didnt worship the ground he walked on - would you still ignore him?

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  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #686 - February 14, 2011, 01:39 AM

    @ Alex
    No, all what you *definitely* get from that description is that it's speaking of the day of judgement.

    But really, if the purpose of that verse was imagery meant to instill awe, why then get too technical and ask questions about the possibility of that image when all what God has to do to make it possible is say: Be!

    Do you see what I'm getting at?  You say the purpose of this verse is not clear. I just given you one good purpose, but then you claim that questions regarding that image might make it unclear... you say this, despite the assumption of God's ability to do anything He wants, including making that image a possibility. Seek the message itself, rather than getting lost in the details.
     far away hug


    I understand such a purpose. What I am trying to convey is that I do not like this purpose.

    Despite your interpretation of what is the Koran, the book itself states that it is a guidance for mankind, all of it's verses should be believed in, thus when it tells you that you should do something, you should do it, otherwise you disrespect the most merciful.

    Jihad is obligatory to you (and you know it?). Show me how you interpret jihad, with the help of the Koran, as anything but a physical fight against unbelievers.

    Those who lived in times of Muhammad, would have had to understand orders about not being noisy around Muhammad as a practical advice. You clearly can not do that and I am willing to accept your invented interpretation about it's purpose these days.

    What about all other practical advice/commandments: inheritance, praying, communal praying, fasting, hajj, jihad, which friends to take, charity, wife beating, whom to obey (politics: human rulers/sultans/amirs), law (fatwas, shari'a)? Do you believe that those are also meant only to know God?

    If there was a religion that I would follow, I would prefer to be able to do my own tafsir of the holy texts, just like you do. The problem however is, that when you have ummah and practical advice toward other people, the word of God about such issues will be taken as constitution and application of it without an authoritative tafsir is not possible. Will you question a judge? Your president/amir? Are you an anarchist?

    Thus I do see a lot more support in the Koran for the orthodox view that Islam is a complete way of life, regulating personal and communal affairs. Your interpretation that it is some kind of "God's autobiography" does not seem plausible for me at all.

    This brings me back to the awe inspiring verses of judgement day, afterlife and similar. The book that promises believers to be successful in this life as well as afterlife can not afford the unclear, awe inspiring verses when it fails to give a clear message on practical advice. How do I know it fails? Because observation shows the opposite of its claims to be true: those with the strongest iman tend to be most illiterate, most poor, oppressed, with shortest life expectancy... I think my point is clear. the statement that sun rises in the east may be incorrect scientifically but it does not contradict my observation. Great. However the statement that believers will be successful in this life does contradict observation.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #687 - February 14, 2011, 02:01 AM

    @ sobeiski
    Yes. but, I’ll keep it in that corner.


    Well you keep a pretty damning thing in that corner, that the guide to all mankind fails miserably (100%) to explain how nature works. Is that a wise thing to do? If you would find out your financial adviser is an embezzler, would you keep that in the corner too?

    Quote
    If we were Martians, the Quran would have sounded Martian, as it should.


    Mars is rock just like Earth, so it would have sounded in the same limited way. What is your point then?

    Quote
    So why do you still use these terms, even though you know they’re wrong? Because using other terms would make you sound very awkward, no?


    Actually I never use these terms, because the need for using them never arises. Nowadays I use the clock system if I want to refer to a point in time - and I'm not being sarcastic here. If I'd really want to refer to those events/periods, I could say "dawn" and "dusk", but yes, I could use "sunrise" and "sunset" just as well. Mainly because I don't have the mission of writing a guide to all mankind, a guide that wants to impress unto the reader that it is not the work of a limited being.

    Quote
    I believe if God said, in the Quran, things like that the earth we stand firmly upon is actually moving really really fast, no one would have believed it (including Muhammed himself), and the religion would have died, even before it was born, for trying to convey an *irrelevant* idea (without the guarantee of impressing anyone from the future).


    You believe that? Based on what? Lack of faith in Mo's belief capabilities? Lack of persuasion capabilities on Mo's part toward fellow Arabs? Is it more easy to believe the sun sets in a pool of murky water? If you like to speculate in this way, I could also speculate that IF they wouldn't have believed that, "Allah" could have performed miracles before them, and tell them to believe it. Or "Allah" could have destroyed them for their disbelief and throw them into hell (like he threatens all over the place in the Quran to do), then he would have approached other primitive people more open to suggestions. Why didn't you choose to believe these alternatives? Because you'd like Islam to be true?

    As for the "without the guarantee of impressing anyone from the future" part, maybe you're not familiar with people converting to Islam because of the "scientific miracles", and people falling from Islam because of their falseness. They *do* have the guarantee of impressing people from future.

    Quote
    Here’s what I said exactly:  (as opposed to being hilly all over, for example). I used parenthesis precisely because I wanted to explain to you that saying the earth is flat doesn’t necessarily mean the earth cannot be a globe, especially that the Quran sounded as if it’s counting this “flatness” of earth as something to thank God for.


    Well first, the verse I presented says nothing about it being something to thank God for.
    Second, it *does* mean the earth cannot be a globe, since a "bed" is never a globe. The only reason you're saying it "doesn’t necessarily mean the earth cannot be a globe" is that the alternative is not palatable to you. The context shows clearly "Allah" speaks from a cosmic perspective here about his creation, the creation of a whole planet, not the creation of a path. The thing that betrays the author is not an out-of-this-world being is that this author has the limited perspective a primitive man on earth would have. 

    Quote
    I’m not going to go over the entire list of alleged scientific errors with you here. I’m just giving you a most celebrated example on a scientific error, when nothing in the text makes it necessarily so.


    That's a shame. Let's go through just one more. Quoting from isLame's (I think) list, here's the 1st one:

    Quran 41:9-12 teaches that it took God 8 days to complete his creation, while Quran 7:54, 10:03 and 11:07 say it took 6 days.

    Quote
    I’m not going to reject the entirety of a book, because a few things that don’t make sense to me. The worst that I could do is assume that what should have happened, happened and some corruption reached the Quran (I’m not saying that I believe that the Quran is corrupted, I’m just saying that believing in a possibility of corruption is only one alternative to rejecting an entire book, when I’m completely convinced in the vast majority of its verses).


    Why is that the worst, I say it's the best. There is empiric evidence for it, so what's the problem. JWs have a favorite (but valid) question for doubters, that works here too: would you drink a glass of water knowing 1% of it is poison? Hey, 99% is clear water, right?
     
    Quote
     
    I already explained that this was an example on the seemingly definite ones (given what I know).


    Then you were playing with me previously. I asked you "So you agree that you are rejecting reality, that the Quran contains indeed contradictions?" and you replied "No, I agree to the *possibility* of contradictions but that doesn't necessarily mean that there are contradictions."

    So do you admit now that you are rejecting reality, something you complained about when it comes to the Shia?

    Quote
    It all starts with a simple premise: all that exists is God and His creation. By “creation” I mean absolutely everything, including our thoughts and the fleeting idle moments of our lives, everything.


    So you believe you owe your "soul" to "Allah" because he created your soul, and you believe he created your soul because you start with a premise? Why don't you start with hard facts? Why do you prefer to start with *this* premise? And how do you know this premise is correct, what are your hard facts and proofs?
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #688 - February 14, 2011, 02:17 AM

    Sobieski, there is no contradiction in the two verses about how long it took Allah to create "universe". You can see it if you read them carefully: he could have done two tasks (i.e. building mountains and raising skies or whatever simultaneously). Hassan has explained this simple riddle somewhere on the blog forum. Believe me, it can be shown easily not to be a contradiction, only misunderstanding.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #689 - February 14, 2011, 04:06 AM

    Alex, thanks for your input. I cannot agree though, as the text does not contain any indication of simultaneous creation of something and other thing. That has to be invented in order to resolve the contradiction. After saying the earth was made in 2 days, it says "He set on the (earth) [that was created in 2 days] mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days.

    Obviously, to put mountains high above the surface, to bless it and put nourishment on the surface, this earth has to already have its surface finished.

    The last verse likewise implies the creation of the heavens follows after the creation of earth.

    Anyway, this back and forth goes the same way with Christian apologists. They will come with all kind of clever, sometimes intelligent, but mostly contorted arguments to make the text spotless. In the process of doing so, they have to invent their own way out, and Muslims are no different. "Oh, some of these things were done simultaneously". Huh? Where did they get that from? From the text? No, from their imagination. This way there can be no contradiction whatsoever, in none of the sacred texts, of all religions. Isn't this a wonderful world? Smiley
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