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Theme Changer

 Topic: Creation in the Qur'an

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  • Creation in the Qur'an
     OP - January 18, 2011, 10:00 PM

    Just some musings on a point I made elsewhere - I want to ask if ppl think this would make a good vid or not?

    ____________________________


    The Qur'an says the Heavens & Earth were created in 6 days (al-A’raaf 7:54). Now I'm not interested in how you interpret the words 'days' (yawm) here. I just want to look at the proportion of time the Qur'an gives about Creation.

    This is given in (Fussilat 41:9-12) where it says God created the Earth in 4 days and then turned to the Heavens and created them in 2 days.

    The first problem is that it implies the creation of the earth preceded the rest of the universe. Of course we know that is not true. It was however a common belief at the time when people believed in a geocentric universe.

    The second problem is the proportion of time the Qur'an alots to the creation of the Earth and the Heavens.

    It says that the Earth was created in 4 days and then the Heavens in 2 days.

    So the Earth took 66.66% of the time

    While the rest of the Universe took 33.33%

    We now know that the universe took about 13.9 billion years to form, while the Earth took 4.5 billion years to form.

    Of course there was no point when one was left complete while the other was being created as the Qur'an suggests, but the universe was still forming while the Earth was forming. In which case the percentage of time the Universe took to create is about 76% while the Earth took about 24%.

    The Qur'an is of course not a science book. Nor is it a book by an Omniscient creator. It is the book of a man. A man from the 7th century - who shared a geocentric understanding of the universe as others at the time. He thought the Earth was the centre of the universe and took much longer to create than anything else in it.
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #1 - January 18, 2011, 10:02 PM

    I think ALL videos which point out errors in the Quran are worthwhile Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #2 - January 18, 2011, 10:05 PM

    Very good idea for a video.  I love exposing the scientific inaccuracies of the Quran.

    .
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #3 - January 18, 2011, 10:08 PM

    But what really pisses me off is that when you argue with Muslims you are always arguing with a moving target. They carry the goal posts with them, to suit the arguments thrown at them.

    I will of course get Muslims saying the Qur'an is not a book of science but a book of spiritual and moral precepts with a great deal of metaphor. They will save their arguments that it is scientifically accurate when it suits them.
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #4 - January 18, 2011, 10:10 PM

    If it has the big bang in it (which it doesn't) then the rest needs to be accurate.  If the leom's are allowed to be inaccurate then one shouldn't give any credit for parts which happen to match.

    Lots of people don't know about these inaccuracies - it all helps!  Remember, the only person who can deconvert a believer is the believer themself; you aren't trying to deconvert anyone, you are merely providing relevant information for those who are brave enough to ask questions!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #5 - January 18, 2011, 10:11 PM

    Salam Hassan,
    I seem to remember that somewhere I saw some Muslim apologetic in fact using a verse which stated that the earth was created in 2 days, and the rest of the universe in 4 days, and that the ratio (2/6) is more or less the same as (4.5/13.7) : The ratio between when the earth formed and the beginning of the universe.

    I don't know from where they got it, but the verses you have here seem to say something else.. Anyway: EVEN if such a verse is present, it would only make the problem of those Muslims bigger. Smiley
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #6 - January 18, 2011, 10:15 PM

    Salam Hassan,
    I seem to remember that somewhere I saw some Muslim apologetic in fact using a verse which stated that the earth was created in 2 days, and the rest of the universe in 4 days, and that the ratio (2/6) is more or less the same as (4.5/13.7) : The ratio between when the earth formed and the beginning of the universe.

    I don't know from where they got it, but the verses you have here seem to say something else.. Anyway: EVEN if such a verse is present, it would only make the problem of those Muslims bigger. Smiley


    The 2nd verse I referenced above is the one he is referring to, but he is wrong. Although it says Earth in 2 days it then adds the mountains and says 4 days in all.

    “Say (O Muhammad): Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days? And you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists). He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four ‘days’ were equal in the length of time) for all those who ask (about its creation). Then He rose over (Istawa) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: ‘Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.’ They both said: ‘We come willingly.’ Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him, the All-Mighty, the All-Knower”
    [Fussilat 41:9-12]
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #7 - January 18, 2011, 10:17 PM

    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/31865

    Were the heavens and the earth created in six days or eight?

    I read the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 
    “Indeed, your Lord is Allaah, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and then He rose over (Istawa) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the creation and commandment. Blessed is Allaah, the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)!”
    [al-A’raaf 7:54] 
    What I understand from this is that Allaah created the heavens and the earth in six days. This is clear. 
    But in another passage Allaah mentions the creation of the heavens and the earth, and He says (interpretation of the meaning): 
    “Say (O Muhammad): Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days? And you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists).
    He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four ‘days’ were equal in the length of time) for all those who ask (about its creation).
    Then He rose over (Istawa) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: ‘Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.’ They both said: ‘We come willingly.’
    Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him, the All-Mighty, the All-Knower”
    [Fussilat 41:9-12]
     Here Allaah says that He created the earth in two days, then He placed therein firm mountains and measured therein its sustenance in four days, which makes six days in all. Then He created the heavens in two days, so the total comes to eight days.
    How can we reconcile between the two verses?.

    Praise be to Allaah. 
    This is an issue which confuses some people, and some of them think that Allaah created the heavens and the earth in eight days as Allaah says in Soorah Fussilat (interpretation of the meaning):

    “Say (O Muhammad): Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days? And you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists).

    He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four ‘days’ were equal in the length of time) for all those who ask (about its creation).

    Then He rose over (Istawa) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: ‘Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.’ They both said: ‘We come willingly.’

    Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him, the All-Mighty, the All-Knower”

    [Fussilat 41:9-12]

    because this seems to contradict the other verse which says that He created them in six days.

    This is a misunderstanding, and the answer to it is as follows:

    There is no contradiction between the time period mentioned in these verses and the other verse which says that it was six days.

    In these verses – from Soorah Fussilat – we see that Allaah is telling us that He “created the earth in two Days”. 

    Then He “placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers)” in four days equal– i.e., in two days that were added to the two days in which He created the earth, so the total is four days.  It does not say that the creation of the mountains and the measuring of the sustenance took four days.

    Perhaps the confusion which is mentioned in the question stems from this, i.e., from thinking that the four days are added to the two days in which the earth was created, equaling six, and then adding the two days in which the heavens were created (“Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days”) – making a total of eight days, not six days. But this confusion can be dispelled by dealing with this mistaken notion.  So the earth was created in two days, and the mountains were created and the sustenance measured in two more days which makes a total of four, i.e., this took the other two days. Then the creation of the seven heavens took two days. So the total is six days of the Days of Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted.

    The mufassireen commented on this fact which deals with the mistaken notion. Al-Qurtubi said:

    “in four days” – this is like someone saying, “I set out from Basra to Baghdad in ten days and to Kufa in fifteen days, i.e., a total time of fifteen days.” (al-Jaami’ li Ahkaam al-Qur’aan, vol. 15, p. 343).

    Al-Baghawi said: “in four days” means the creation of what is in the earth. The measuring of the sustenance was on Tuesday and Wednesday, which along with Sunday and Monday add up to four days. This is like saying “I married a woman yesterday and today I married two” – one of whom is the woman whom he married the day before.

    Tafseer al-Baghawi, 7/165

    Al-Zajjaaj said: “in four days” means two days added to the previous two days.

    Al-Kashshaaf, vol. 3, p. 444

    These verses – from Soorah Fussilat – confirm the other verse, which says that the creation of the heavens and the earth was completed in six days. So there is no contradiction concerning the period in which Allaah created the heavens and the earth. There cannot be any such contradictions in the Qur’aan..

    And Allaah knows best.

  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #8 - January 18, 2011, 10:19 PM

    In short - the Qur'an says Creation took 6 days - 4 days for Earth and 2 days for the Heavens.

    Trust me that is the view all the scholars have taken and anyone who says differently, doesn't know Islam/Qur'an well - plain and simple.
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #9 - January 18, 2011, 10:33 PM

    In which case the percentage of time the Universe took to create is about 76% while the Earth took about 24%.




    The idea for the video is great. I had to use my brain a little to follow it however, so make it safe for even smaller brains. I see the replies already: "% sign is used in interest rates. Interest is used by the banks. Banks are controlled by the JEWS!!! Thus you used %s to confuse believers."

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #10 - January 18, 2011, 10:36 PM

    You maybe right. Perhaps leave out percentages. The figures speak for themselves anyway.

    May do it later. I'm always getting ideas but things get in the way and so just don't get round to it these days.
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #11 - January 18, 2011, 10:42 PM

    When I click on your youtube channel from your blog I get:
    This channel is no longer available because the user closed their account

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #12 - January 18, 2011, 11:55 PM

    Good idea! There's a lack of objective material criticising the Quran online. Most of the stuff debunking the Quran comes from junk evangelist websites.

    I think the evolution angle is less prone to conjectures though. If you're going to spend time and effort making videos debunking the Quran, my vote goes to tackling the creationist myth. It's stronger scientifically.

    what do you say?
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #13 - January 19, 2011, 10:19 AM

    When I click on your youtube channel from your blog I get:
    This channel is no longer available because the user closed their account


    My YT channel is currently private.
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #14 - January 19, 2011, 10:25 AM

    Good idea! There's a lack of objective material criticising the Quran online. Most of the stuff debunking the Quran comes from junk evangelist websites.

    I think the evolution angle is less prone to conjectures though. If you're going to spend time and effort making videos debunking the Quran, my vote goes to tackling the creationist myth. It's stronger scientifically.

    what do you say?


    tbh when I was a Muslim I never had a major problem with Evolution so I'm not sure it would be very effective.

    I think a video specifically directed at that prick Harun Yahya would be good though.
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #15 - January 19, 2011, 12:38 PM

    Harun Yahya... perhaps an even bigger douche than Zakir Naik?

    I agree that evolution didn't really matter to me as a Muslim, it's more one of those things looking in from the outside that you just think to yourself "How do these people consolidate those two ideas?"

    For me, any vid you can make Hassan would be worthwhile, though why not go for embryology or big bang verses and deconstruct those? The order/time of creation of the earth/universe is, as you say, subject to moving goal posts. Muslims will maybe just wriggle out of it by saying that just because the earth formed in such-and-such way doesn't mean Allah couldn't have created it in a completely different way and then "placed" it within our time. Or maybe he created a prototype earth in X days and then said "be" and the real earth formed in Y billion years.
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #16 - January 19, 2011, 01:31 PM

    I would point out what is missing from the creation stories as well, other homo species that we know had a least tool using capabilities, possibly consciousness, and rituals in the case of neanderthals.  The history of our species is interesting and the creAtion story bores it up a lot.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #17 - January 19, 2011, 01:32 PM

    I think it's a very good idea Hassan! you said that muslims tend to change goalposts throughout the debate/conversation. maybe it could be useful to point it out in the video or address their most commonly made apologetic claims/fallacies etc? if there is time, of course Smiley

    Harun Yahya - is it the guy who wrote like 240 books on the miracles of the quran? to challenge his ideas would be excellent!

    uhh i wanted to say i watched the vid about apostates which you are in and you ROCKED! Smiley everyone was great! it's good that you guys speak out Smiley

    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #18 - January 19, 2011, 01:39 PM

    You guys are all wrong!!

    God created a fish, then placed earth on it. The fish started moving, the earth started shaking. God established mountains on earth to make it still.

    It is now sun's job to rise from the east and set on the west, and go rest!

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #19 - January 19, 2011, 01:46 PM

    I think it's a very good idea Hassan! you said that muslims tend to change goalposts throughout the debate/conversation. maybe it could be useful to point it out in the video or address their most commonly made apologetic claims/fallacies etc? if there is time, of course Smiley

    Harun Yahya - is it the guy who wrote like 240 books on the miracles of the quran? to challenge his ideas would be excellent!

    uhh i wanted to say i watched the vid about apostates which you are in and you ROCKED! Smiley everyone was great! it's good that you guys speak out Smiley



    Yaah Harun Yahya is the Islamic equivalent of the Christian Creationists.

    And thanks Smiley
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #20 - January 19, 2011, 01:48 PM

    God created a fish, then placed earth on it. The fish started moving, the earth started shaking.


    You're so dumb, Muddy - God created a Turtle and then on that four elephants and on that he placed the Earth... Duh!

  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #21 - January 19, 2011, 01:52 PM

    Where is that in scripture? Liar!!

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #22 - January 19, 2011, 01:53 PM

    Where is that in scripture? Liar!!


    Erm... the bit the goat ate  Tongue
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #23 - January 19, 2011, 01:53 PM


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #24 - January 19, 2011, 01:54 PM

    Erm... the bit the goat ate  Tongue

     Cheesy Cheesy

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #25 - January 19, 2011, 02:56 PM

    The problem with ratios is that the Qurap only says that the Earth days were equal, not the heaven days too - so disproving it by refuting the idea that the Earth took longer than the stars won't really work because it doesn't actually say that.

    It does however seem to say that the Earth came before the stars (which is impossible, because many stars were there before our star.)

    You might get them on the idea though that mountains didn't exist until 50% of the Earth's life span.  Not sure how long ago tectonic movement would have caused the first mountains.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #26 - January 19, 2011, 03:21 PM

    Interesting idea Hassan.
    Though I think it will be effective if you are targeting Muslims who believe in big bang or that Allah initiated a natural process to create earth and heaven.

    Most of the muslims in my opinion think that Allah may have used his magical powers to create earth (when he wants something to happen he just says and it happens). BTW in that case why would he even need 6 days.
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #27 - January 19, 2011, 03:33 PM

    why would he even need 6 days.


    Actually I think that is the most damaging question.

    In Hebrew god took 6 Yom (days) to create everything. The Quran is CLEARLY a copy of this idea and yet Muslims wriggle out of it using the sometimes apparent vagueness of the Arabic language to claim it means "periods of time".

    But even if 1 leom in this case is a billionth of a second, why did it take 6?  Could the all-powerful being not do it in 1 go?  Doing it in 6 hints that either he was unable to do it in one go, OR that he didn't have an initial plan but refined it (I know, mountains will look good there) - in which case he is imperfect.

    Creating something in stages is certain a very human approach.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #28 - January 19, 2011, 04:33 PM

    The problem with ratios is that the Qurap only says that the Earth days were equal, not the heaven days too - so disproving it by refuting the idea that the Earth took longer than the stars won't really work because it doesn't actually say that.



    I appreciate that the Qur'an talks of days meaning 1000 or 50000 of ordinary Earth days - but this verse can't be making a distinction between "Earth Days" and "Heaven Days", because that would mean the Qur'an is saying the Earth was literally created in 4 ordinary Earth days.
  • Re: Creation in the Qur'an
     Reply #29 - January 19, 2011, 04:40 PM

    As it happens I have no doubt the 6 day thing was simply copied by Muhammad from the Bible.

    The verses with the 1000 or 50000 are in reference to angels traveling to the earth and back - it may be Muhammad or a scribe thought it would take longer than a day.
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