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Theme Changer

 Topic: Progressive Islam

 (Read 16975 times)
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  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #30 - January 19, 2011, 02:23 PM

    +1.

    In fact try posting less Yeezee -

    Done hassan.. your wish will come true and I realize many friends here like to see that.

    Quote
    especially when you don't really have anything sensible (or comprehensible) to add to a discussion.

    True most of what I write is not sensible, irrelevant, irrational and not related to the discussion on hand.  and it hurts many.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #31 - January 19, 2011, 02:41 PM

    I just ignore Yeez, he makes no sense most of the time anyways, either that or my brain don't twist the way he does so I just read a garbled mess, at times tho s/he (?) makes me giggle.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #32 - January 19, 2011, 02:52 PM

    Unlike islamicboard.com here you won't get lots of "Message deleted" for posting things which disagree with the beliefs of the majority Smiley

    For me (never been a Muslim) I think that you have either the letter-of-the-law approach or the spirit-of-the-law approach.  In some cases it appears that Shariah is an attempt at implementing the law to the letter (X stripes of the whip for Y crime etc).

    Whether you want to believe in what I would call "utter crap" or not is obviously your choice, and I commend you for using your own mind unlike many of the Muslims I talk to who take everything literally because they are literally told to take everything literally Smiley

    I hope you enjoy your stay here.  Look out for the trolls though, we get the odd one on here too :-)

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #33 - January 19, 2011, 02:54 PM



     But let us see how democracy works here ., Why not conduct a poll, how many Cemb folks would like yeezevee to leave the forum...




    Please don't! Cry Cry



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #34 - January 19, 2011, 03:13 PM

    Are you sure you're not just romanticising Islam in order to make it palatable to you with your understanding of modern ideas about science, secularism, rationalism, egalitarianism, gender equality etc?

    I say this because people who were critical thinkers in the past who happened to be Muslim and lived in nominally Islamic domains were who they were and thought as they did not because of Islam, but because they were simply intelligent, critically minded men.

    I understand the desire to reconcile your identity and sense of affiliation with Islam, with the reality of Islam as a closed system of belief rooted in intolerance and supremacism and imperialistic notions.

    But you, Sofian86, do not believe in the things you believe in - gender equality, democracy etc - BECAUSE of Islam. You believe in them because you are YOU. So it was with free thinkers from the Islamic world in the past.

    Exactly what I was thinking. yes

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #35 - January 19, 2011, 03:30 PM

    People tend to approach scripture with their own prejudices and usually they are looking to confirm what they already believe or want to believe. This leaves us with another uncomfortable truth - that scripture is actually meaningless because people can choose to interpret and apply it as they see fit. So what really is Islam? And does it matter?

    Very profound  Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #36 - January 19, 2011, 04:06 PM

    Hi Sofian.
    Welcome to the forum
    Quote
    -I don't believe in the death penalty or corporal punishment. I see it as uncivilised.


    1) Do you find corporal punishment uncivilized under all conditions?

    2) Cutting of hands and death punishments are allowed in Quran. What do you think about the legislative significance of this allowance in Quran?
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #37 - January 19, 2011, 04:09 PM

    Fazlur Rahman is a modernist and wrote Islam, which goes through the intellectual threads and discussions in history.  His theories where roughly the same as yours.


    Fazlur Rahman was trying to reconcile Islam with modernity, it seems to me, in the sense that he was attempting to make Islam 'contain' modernity - that science, free thinking, liberal thought, all of these things could be made to in some way be Islamicised, rendered 'legitimate' by Islam.

    As a strategy for reforming Islam, a gentler, tolerant Islam, it is on the surface, commendable. But it still doesn't confront the flaw - that Islam sees the need to contain that which it sees as competing with it and that it is profoundly spooked, and frightened of modernity in a way in which nothing else frightens and spooks it.

    In the past, Islam confronted other belief systems that were rooted in their own supernaturalisms and illogicalities, and hence Islam could prevail by having the greater power, and shouting the loudest, and usurping them by imposition. Democracy, human rights, gender equality, secularism, freedom of conscience, these are (to orthodox Islamic eyes) utterly insidious, uncontrollable precepts, the oxygen in the air of humanity, which modern successful societies need to breath, but which cannot be seen, are hard to pin down and scream and destroy and usurp, they are nonchalant, relaxed, and corrupting the purity and aspiring hegemony of Islam.......at the thinnest end of the wedge Islam responds with blockheaded crudity - societies with modernity at their core are derided as godless heathen locations full of sluts, whores and debauched fornicators (Islam always rescinds in its defensiveness to sexual neurosis)..........at the more sophisticated end Fazlur Rahman resides.

    As an incremental process to wean Muslims off the sanctity of literalism, you want to encourage this, even if you doubt its chances of success, because you want the principles of modernity to have primacy as an ideal. When it becomes, however, tenuous, or dawah-ish, when it refuses to address the flaws of Islam directly, I still think we should speak up and criticise the process, especially when it inculcates an idea as an adjunct to that, which is that modernity should accomodate Islam, rather than Islam accomodating modernity. The hegemonic impulse has to be pointed out and guarded against.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #38 - January 19, 2011, 04:10 PM

    Hi Sofian.
    Welcome to the forum
    1) Do you find corporal punishment uncivilized under all conditions?

    2) Cutting of hands and death punishments are allowed in Quran. What do you think about the legislative significance of this allowance in Quran?

    Hey,  Don't convert him/her Smiley
    He can do a lot of stuff while still in muslim tag, then a murtid tag.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #39 - January 19, 2011, 04:24 PM

    Hey,  Don't convert him/her Smiley
    He can do a lot of stuff while still in muslim tag, then a murtid tag.


    He/she has already been tagged as a kafir on other forum Smiley
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #40 - January 19, 2011, 04:26 PM

    Yup, but not like in your case when you were considering leaving islam. This person isn't on that point yet.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #41 - January 19, 2011, 04:34 PM

    Yup, but not like in your case when you were considering leaving islam. This person isn't on that point yet.

    I was just hoping it will be good to have someone like Sofian in hell with me. He/She may get me pardoned from my eternal corporal punishment sentence on the basis of it being uncivilized  Wink
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #42 - January 19, 2011, 04:43 PM

    Very well put Billy.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #43 - January 19, 2011, 04:58 PM

    I was just hoping it will be good to have someone like Sofian in hell with me. He/She may get me pardoned from my eternal corporal punishment sentence on the basis of it being uncivilized  Wink

     Cheesy Don't worry man, we are all with you..

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #44 - January 19, 2011, 08:51 PM

    Well Hizbi/Muhajiroun/Salafi types certainly do. But there have been Muslims who have argued that Islam itself offered an early type of Democratic system with the idea of "Shura" consultation.


    The election of the 3rd caliph, Uthman is a perfect example of shura consultation, its a shame muslims don't use that as a basis of forming some sort of democratic method.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #45 - January 20, 2011, 11:04 AM

    Very thought provoking comments - thank you.

    Just to pick up on some of them:
     
    Are you sure you're not just romanticising Islam in order to make it palatable to you with your understanding of modern ideas about science, secularism, rationalism, egalitarianism, gender equality etc?

    The quest for knowledge was in itself part and parcel of Islam  - theology was instrinsically linked to science, maths and the humanities. This is what made it such a progressive religion.

    Also, I wouldn't really call them "modern" ideas - to me they are universal ideas. Take the concept of  human rights - which is basically the idea that we should treat people with fairness, respect, equality and dignity - if we weren't blinded by socially constructed and preconcieved notions, I think we'd all be wholeheartedly committed to such ideas.

    People tend to approach scripture with their own prejudices and usually they are looking to confirm what they already believe or want to believe. This leaves us with another uncomfortable truth - that scripture is actually meaningless because people can choose to interpret and apply it as they see fit. So what really is Islam? And does it matter?

    Ironically that is what 'literalist' Muslims accuse me of doing.

    Yes, we shouldn't approach scripture with prejudices; rather, what I am arguing is that we should do so with moral principles. Ofcourse, you might argue that morality is subjective (and that it is a function of our life experiences, social and economic circumstances and even our neurophysiology) - and what is moral to person X may not be moral to person Y. I believe that our sense of morality is innate within us - that there are moral truths that we'll find across all cultures. One such truth is that we apply to ourselves the same standards we apply to others - indeed the concept of human rights stems from this truism.

    IMO, in order to reform Islam, the first thing that must be done is to critically reinterpret the meaning of every verse in the Qur'an, with nothing but an open mind and a set of moral axioms to guide us.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #46 - January 20, 2011, 11:29 AM

    Hi sofian86!

    I thinks that its great that you see issues with literalistic interpretation of Quran; on the other hand I do think that trying to apply modern morals to it is a minefield - I tried doing the exact same thing and it got me exactly nowhere.

    If you don't mind me asking - what is you take on what for example Tariq Ramadan and such are doing?  

    IMO, in order to reform Islam, the first thing that must be done is to critically reinterpret the meaning of every verse in the Qur'an, with nothing but an open mind and a set of moral axioms to guide us.

    How would you interpret 4:34? 4:16?

    The quest for knowledge was in itself part and parcel of Islam  - theology was instrinsically linked to science, maths and the humanities. This is what made it such a progressive religion.

    You mean "progressive" in the historical context of 7th century Arabia?


    Yes, we shouldn't approach scripture with prejudices; rather, what I am arguing is that we should do so with moral principles. Ofcourse, you might argue that morality is subjective (and that it is a function of our life experiences, social and economic circumstances and even our neurophysiology) - and what is moral to person X may not be moral to person Y. I believe that our sense of morality is innate within us - that there are moral truths that we'll find across all cultures. One such truth is that we apply to ourselves the same standards we apply to others - indeed the concept of human rights stems from this truism.

    Yes - the problem of subjectivity. How do you get around it?

    A direct question - you are approaching Quran from a perspective of a rational person who is capable of having knowledge, right?
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #47 - January 20, 2011, 12:21 PM

    The election of the 3rd caliph, Uthman is a perfect example of shura consultation, its a shame muslims don't use that as a basis of forming some sort of democratic method.


    An agreement by a bunch of warlords to appoint Allah's earthly guardian and leader who cannot then be replaced because he has divine injunction can never be twisted into democracy, really.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #48 - January 20, 2011, 12:33 PM

    The quest for knowledge was in itself part and parcel of Islam  - theology was instrinsically linked to science, maths and the humanities. This is what made it such a progressive religion.


    This is retrospective romanticism and whitewashing to a collosal degree.

    Also, I wouldn't really call them "modern" ideas - to me they are universal ideas. Take the concept of  human rights - which is basically the idea that we should treat people with fairness, respect, equality and dignity - if we weren't blinded by socially constructed and preconcieved notions, I think we'd all be wholeheartedly committed to such ideas.


    They are universal ideas, but they are also part of modernity - they have arisen from the struggles against the tyranny of religion, the tyranny of kings and arbitrary power, they privelige the rights of the individual over the collective, they are intertwined with the liberation of women, they are part of the struggle against colonial rule, they are formed by the achievments of science, rationalism and secularism against superstition and the dominion of 'God' and his earthly enforcers. They are not platitudes, rooted in religious bromides, they are hard fought for and hard won battles that have been happening with special intensity for the last few hundred years, and continue to be fought for now. They are not an endgame, not a single set of achievments, they are an ever perfecting struggle to safeguard the dignity of the individual man and woman against the tyranny of religion and society. This is what is meant by modernity.

    Egalitarianism, the dignity of the individual over the collective, the equality of men and women, absolute freedom of conscience; these are universal values that conflict with literalist Islam, which is to all effects and purposes, mainstream Islam today.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #49 - January 20, 2011, 12:39 PM


    As I said before, I am caught between sympathising and applauding your desire to seek to actively advocate for a liberal, non literalist Islam, and feeling the need to correct some of the interpretations of Islam, which for all their wishful thinking, can be seen as just another manifestation of 'Everything is Islam'

    I wish your mode was prevalent, at the same time, I find it really hard to let some things pass without comment. Please don't take it as my being hostile to your mission, I really am not. I wish your mission all success. Its just that I think its important to counterpoint some of the assertions being made here.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #50 - January 20, 2011, 12:40 PM

    An agreement by a bunch of warlords to appoint Allah's earthly guardian and leader who cannot then be replaced because he has divine injunction can never be twisted into democracy, really.


    totally agree with u.. "Democracy" inside the Oligarchy is not democracy. If we accept that system as democratic (people's rule) than we have to accept the appointment of the Pope as democratic, the appointment of the Holy Roman Emperors as democratic etc...

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #51 - January 20, 2011, 12:45 PM

    An agreement by a bunch of warlords to appoint Allah's earthly guardian and leader who cannot then be replaced because he has divine injunction can never be twisted into democracy, really.

    There is a deeper issue here too.

    Democracy is a political form of government where legitimization of the governing power is derived from the electorate. It can be totalitarian as well as liberal, it can be religious as well as secular.

    Classical Greeks definitely had a type of direct democracy yet they also had slaves. United States had a period when slavery coexisted with both representative democracy and a secular constitution.

    Point is that democracy per se doesn't solve anything. What is really needed is the right kind of underlying values (and this is strictly my partisan opinion) such as liberty (in the true sense of the word - this would obviously include all forms of celestial tyrants), equal rights for all, separation of church and state, egalitarianism, etc. - values derived from Enlightenment and contained in the message of the French Revolution.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #52 - January 20, 2011, 01:06 PM

    totally agree with u.. "Democracy" inside the Oligarchy is not democracy. If we accept that system as democratic (people's rule) than we have to accept the appointment of the Pope as democratic, the appointment of the Holy Roman Emperors as democratic etc...


    The appointment of the grand Ayatollah in Iran as a manifestation of democracy and the 'democratic' spirit....

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #53 - January 20, 2011, 01:07 PM

    There is a deeper issue here too.

    Democracy is a political form of government where legitimization of the governing power is derived from the electorate. It can be totalitarian as well as liberal, it can be religious as well as secular.

    Classical Greeks definitely had a type of direct democracy yet they also had slaves. United States had a period when slavery coexisted with both representative democracy and a secular constitution.

    Point is that democracy per se doesn't solve anything. What is really needed is the right kind of underlying values (and this is strictly my partisan opinion) such as liberty (in the true sense of the word - this would obviously include all forms of celestial tyrants), equal rights for all, separation of church and state, egalitarianism, etc. - values derived from Enlightenment and contained in the message of the French Revolution.



    Excellent points all of them.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #54 - January 20, 2011, 01:20 PM

    Done hassan.. your wish will come true and I realize many friends here like to see that.
    True most of what I write is not sensible, irrelevant, irrational and not related to the discussion on hand.  and it hurts many.

    Noooooo. Don't listen to them yeezeevee, keep posting.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #55 - January 20, 2011, 09:30 PM

    I thinks that its great that you see issues with literalistic interpretation of Quran; on the other hand I do think that trying to apply modern morals to it is a minefield - I tried doing the exact same thing and it got me exactly nowhere.


    I don't think its a job for one person - this has to be a collective effort on the part of all progressive Muslims.

    Quote
    If you don't mind me asking - what is you take on what for example Tariq Ramadan and such are doing?

     

    I haven't actually been following Tariq Ramadan as of late. I think he agrees that Islamic thinking (not Islam per se) is in need of reform but he is very reluctant to offer anything specific by way of example. He says very general things that we can all agree with.

    I also do not agree with his views on the Hijab at all (I don't know if he has changed them since 2008, when I last went to one of his talks).

    Quote
    How would you interpret 4:34? 4:16?


    I don't know to be honest.

    Quote
    You mean "progressive" in the historical context of 7th century Arabia?


    No - progressive insofar as intellectual pursuits were very much encouraged, as they are today in the West.

    Quote
    Yes - the problem of subjectivity. How do you get around it?


    Well, I am arguing that morality is not subjective - I think there are moral truisms. Just in the same way we have a language module that gives us an innate capacity for language, I think we have a 'moral module'. It follows that there are immutable moral truisms such as that example I gave in my last post - eg. we don't steal from others because we would hate it when others steal from us.

    Quote
    A direct question - you are approaching Quran from a perspective of a rational person who is capable of having knowledge, right?


    I think we must approach it objectively - ie. without bias. Ofcourse this is very difficult to do because everyone (including myself) holds preconceived ideas about the world around us - that's why such an endeavour must be a collective effort, where arguments and counter arguments can be expressed.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #56 - January 20, 2011, 09:40 PM

    They are universal ideas, but they are also part of modernity - they have arisen from the struggles against the tyranny of religion, the tyranny of kings and arbitrary power, they privelige the rights of the individual over the collective, they are intertwined with the liberation of women, they are part of the struggle against colonial rule, they are formed by the achievments of science, rationalism and secularism against superstition and the dominion of 'God' and his earthly enforcers. They are not platitudes, rooted in religious bromides, they are hard fought for and hard won battles that have been happening with special intensity for the last few hundred years, and continue to be fought for now. They are not an endgame, not a single set of achievments, they are an ever perfecting struggle to safeguard the dignity of the individual man and woman against the tyranny of religion and society. This is what is meant by modernity.


    Yes, but tyrannies always come and go. Rights constantly have to be fought for and won. Did you know, for example, that there was a vibrant participative democracy in what is now Southern Iran, 2000 years ago? So when young Iranians (or Tunisians) rally against an authoritarian regime - they are not emulating "Western" or "modern" concepts at all (and this is a very patronising thing to say), they are simply reclaiming their rights.

    Quote
    Egalitarianism, the dignity of the individual over the collective, the equality of men and women, absolute freedom of conscience; these are universal values that conflict with literalist Islam, which is to all effects and purposes, mainstream Islam today.


    Right on.

    As I said before, I am caught between sympathising and applauding your desire to seek to actively advocate for a liberal, non literalist Islam, and feeling the need to correct some of the interpretations of Islam, which for all their wishful thinking, can be seen as just another manifestation of 'Everything is Islam'

    I wish your mode was prevalent, at the same time, I find it really hard to let some things pass without comment. Please don't take it as my being hostile to your mission, I really am not. I wish your mission all success. Its just that I think its important to counterpoint some of the assertions being made here.


    Fair enough. BTW, the fact that you are not making death threats against me is a very welcome change:) The irony.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #57 - January 20, 2011, 09:50 PM

    There is a deeper issue here too.

    Democracy is a political form of government where legitimization of the governing power is derived from the electorate. It can be totalitarian as well as liberal, it can be religious as well as secular.

    Classical Greeks definitely had a type of direct democracy yet they also had slaves. United States had a period when slavery coexisted with both representative democracy and a secular constitution.

    Point is that democracy per se doesn't solve anything. What is really needed is the right kind of underlying values (and this is strictly my partisan opinion) such as liberty (in the true sense of the word - this would obviously include all forms of celestial tyrants), equal rights for all, separation of church and state, egalitarianism, etc. - values derived from Enlightenment and contained in the message of the French Revolution.


    Well, if a nation state has superficial democratic institutions, this doesn't necessarily mean it is a democracy. A democracy by definition grants rights to all citizens, so slavery is antithetical to such a political system.

    Semantics aside, as human beings we flourish most when we have personal freedom and autonomy for the simple reason that these rights serve to increase our psychological and material wellbeing.

    Ofcourse it is just as important to evolve socially, through progress in science/sociology, which have shown us that there is no biological basis for race; that gender is a social construction and that we are all gay to varying extents, debunking racist/sexist/homophobic ideology. Democracy fosters such social evolution - just consider the American civil rights struggle for example.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #58 - January 20, 2011, 10:36 PM

    Did you know, for example, that there was a vibrant participative democracy in what is now Southern Iran, 2000 years ago? So when young Iranians (or Tunisians) rally against an authoritarian regime - they are not emulating "Western" or "modern" concepts at all (and this is a very patronising thing to say), they are simply reclaiming their rights.



    Well, I don't know the specifics of that.....however if whatever you are saying is correct, then it was during jahiliya, before Islam arrived and 'civilised' those people, so it might not be a good idea to remind them, after all to remind people (especially Persians) of the good things that are their inheritance that existed in the dark ages of jahiliya before Islam existed is rather taboo  Wink

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #59 - January 20, 2011, 10:38 PM

    BTW, the fact that you are not making death threats against me is a very welcome change:) The irony.


    Hey dude, even when people disagree with you here vehemently, you won't be threatened with anything other than a stern disagreement  Smiley

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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