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 Topic: God is the Universe = Pantheism?

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  • God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     OP - January 20, 2011, 09:54 PM
    A thought that has often come to my mind is that God is everything - and everything came out of God - the sun, the trees, the rocks, the, the fish and us are all bits of God dancing around with God all around.

    I have never studied Pantheism but have been told that this is what it is.

    Any thoughts?

  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #1 - January 20, 2011, 09:58 PM
    Isnt 'God' in this context just a poetic word for 'nature'?  Then why call it God?
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  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #2 - January 20, 2011, 09:59 PM
    Perhaps you mean panentheism. This is the theory that all nature is god but god is nature and even more.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #3 - January 20, 2011, 10:04 PM
    Quote
    Perhaps you mean panentheism. This is the theory claim that all nature is god but god is nature and even more.

    Quote from: FreeSoul007 on January 14, 2011, 05:00 AM
    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #4 - January 20, 2011, 10:08 PM
    Natural extension of this thinking leads to Shaytan=God, which is slightly... hmmm... I don't know what's the word...
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #5 - January 20, 2011, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 20, 2011, 10:08 PM
    Natural extension of this thinking leads to Shaytan=God, which is slightly... hmmm... I don't know what's the word...


    Well there is no Shaytan and when I talk of God I mean existence - being - life - animate - inanimate etc...

    As for Good and Evil - these are concepts - more or less useful in the world we live - but in the grander cosmic scale - I don't think there is such a thing as evil or even good for that matter.
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #6 - January 20, 2011, 10:15 PM
    Well I am very sorry to be so crass, but a further extension of idea that God is everything leads to God=fart, etc... Certainly a funny natural/supernatural being, but does not command much awe. Oh the word I was looking for - un-Islamic.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #7 - January 20, 2011, 10:31 PM
    Superfluous grandeur.

    Naturalism is as much of a god as a circle is a square.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #8 - January 20, 2011, 10:38 PM
    Call it god and others will take it to mean a conscious entity. Just as when physicists use the word to mean "how everything works", then ignorant people take it as reassurance that their belief in Allah is okay.

    I think using that name does more harm than good.

    But to answer your question, yes it is pantheism.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
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  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #9 - January 20, 2011, 10:41 PM
    Quote from: arX on January 20, 2011, 10:31 PM
    Superfluous grandeur.

    Naturalism is as much of a god as a circle is a square.


    Naturalism is a scientific hypothesis. As a metaphysics, it is shaky.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #10 - January 20, 2011, 10:59 PM
    As opposed to supernaturalism?

    That is the context in which I used the term, considering the claim that "God is the universe" ("the sun, the trees, the rocks, the fish and us") versus the unanimous definitions of god being a supernatural entity - the only binding attribute to cover the overwhelming majority of the different god claims that have been proposed throughout the ages.

    Claiming that nature is god is a matter of gross redefinition, a semantic sleight of hand.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #11 - January 20, 2011, 11:07 PM
    As I understand it, naturalism opposed to supernaturalism, is the ontological theory that all that exists is nature. Or, if you will, nature is the only stuff, substance of reality. Now, nature can either be defined scientifically or a priori. As an a priori concept, it is just a tautology. If all that exists is nature, then no matter what exists, will be natural - seen this way, even miracles are natural.
    As a science, however, it is also rife with problems. In scientific terms, the natural world is the objective causal matrix of energy/mass/force/particles etc. These concepts are never fully defined and every new scientific hypothesis will subtly alter our understanding of these concepts. Thus, "nature" is never completely defined and so has no real meaning. You might aswell say that whatever science says is reality, no matter what it says. This way you can drop the meaningless middle-man of "nature".
    However, if your entire metaphysics is a postivist scientism (as the above) then you must realise that this is a leap of faith aswell.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #12 - January 20, 2011, 11:11 PM
    Pantheism (to me) is the weakest level of Theism a person can have, without having the strength to kick the disease once and for all.

    Renaming random things that already have names is a waste of time,
    (Especially when in so many cases, the pantheist rejects their own claim when you give the actual definition of the being they say god is), and a waste of discussion, especially when absolutely everything, absolutely nothing and any variation in between can be relabeled to somehow fit 'god' into it situation.

    To answer the question, yes that is pantheism, but only through the bastardization of the word 'god', rendering it meaningless and unusable.
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #13 - January 20, 2011, 11:22 PM
    Quote from: z10 on January 20, 2011, 11:07 PM
    seen this way, even miracles are natural.

    What are miracles in this sense?

    Quote
    every new scientific hypothesis will subtly alter our understanding of these concepts. Thus, "nature" is never completely defined and so has no real meaning.  

    Precisely.  This is why I never use the term "natural" beyond contrasting against unsubstantiated, vague and rather meaningless claims of the "supernatural" - the unifying root of god claims.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #14 - January 21, 2011, 12:09 AM
    Yep pantheism classically has meant that - the idea that "god" is the organism everything is within/part of, like the bacteria in your stomach is part of "you".

    http://www.pantheism.net

    Various people have used it in various ways. Yes it does render the word "god" useless, and that's why it's a form of atheism itself. Some atheists don't like it, but that's okay. It is very similar to calling "god" "nature" however there no worship required. It would be like asking your toenails to worship you. It's a meaningless concept to worship, pray or have an organized religion around it. It's only a concept that's supposed to relay (for me and for other pantheists like Einstein, Spinoza and contemporary ones) a sense of knowing that yes we are part of the universe and if anything can be called "god" it has to be everything, including all those "bad" things we like to ignore/deny.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: God is the&#
     Reply #15 - January 21, 2011, 12:13 AM
    I'd say that on 'pantheism' God is not identical with the universe but rather, it is the essential and immutable principle by which the universe and everything else came into being.And I'd object to the assertion that pantheism is just a half-assed attempt at understanding God. The concept itself is an ancient one, and I see no reason at all to assume that the god of Abrahamic theism should be the default conception of God.
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #16 - January 21, 2011, 12:23 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on January 21, 2011, 12:13 AM
    I'd say that on 'pantheism' God is not identical with the universe but rather, it is the essential and immutable principle by which the universe and everything else came into being.


    It's a very close concept but technically that would be "panentheism" i.e. pantheism+deism...
     
    As I've come to understand these concepts:

    Pantheism: god=universe (as in, there's nothing outside of the universe, not even "god" which is the wholeness of everything in the universe)

    Panentheism: god=universe + its origin (as in, "god" exists outside of or beyond the universe as well as the universe makes up what could be called "god")

    Quote from: Zebedee on January 21, 2011, 12:13 AM
    And I'd object to the assertion that pantheism is just a half-assed attempt at understanding God. The concept itself is an ancient one, and I see no reason at all to assume that the god of Abrahamic theism should be the default conception of God.


    Agree 1000%!
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #17 - January 21, 2011, 12:54 AM
    Quote
    The concept itself is an ancient one, and I see no reason at all to assume that the god of Abrahamic theism should be the default conception of God.

    I don't believe that anyone here stated or implied this limitation for the definition of God.  However, what is more of a "default conception" of gods is their universal claim of "supernaturalism" - inventing a dichotomy (natural vs. supernatural) with unsubstantiated claims that privileges such deities to being "beyond our grasp" (unobservable, unmeasurable), "outside the laws of the universe", "an uncaused cause", etc.). 

    When you assign supernatural attributes to god, you delve into theism.  When you strip god of any such claims and redefine it as "nature" or "the universe" (assuming there's only one), then I believe that you'd only be unnecessarily complicating what are already beautifully apt, simple and concise terms that, historically, the word god did no justice to through endless false claims.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #18 - January 21, 2011, 01:15 AM
    From this site: http://www.pantheism.net
    Quote
    Richard Dawkins, in his book The God Delusion, has described Pantheism as “sexed-up atheism.” That may seem flippant, but it is accurate. Of all religious or spiritual traditions, Pantheism - the approach of Einstein, Hawking and many other scientists - is the only one that passes the muster of the world's most militant atheist.
     
    So what's the difference between Atheism and Pantheism? As far as disbelief in supernatural beings, forces or realms, there is no difference. World Pantheism also shares the respect for evidence, science, and logic that's typical of atheism.
     
    However, Pantheism goes further, and adds to atheism an embracing, positive and reverential feeling about our lives on planet Earth, our place in Nature and the wider Universe, and uses nature as our basis for dealing with stress, grief and bereavement. It's a form of spirituality that is totally compatible with science. Indeed, since science is our best way of exploring the Universe, respect for the scientific method and fascination with the discoveries of science are an integral part of World Pantheism.

    ....

    Why go beyond straight atheism?

    Does atheism need sexing up? As such, atheism answers only a single question: is there a creator God, or not? That's an important question, but if your answer is "no" it is only a starting point. You may have reached that viewpoint based on your respect for logic, evidence and science, and those too are vital values. Yet after you've reached that initial "no God" answer, all the other important questions in life, all the options for mental and emotional wholeness and social and environmental harmony, remain open.
     
    If atheism, humanism and naturalism are to advance, then they need approaches that don’t simply leave the individual alone in the face of an increasingly threatening physical, social and international environment. They need ways of life that offer as rich a range of benefits as traditional religious ones.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #19 - January 21, 2011, 01:20 AM
    Quote from: arX on January 21, 2011, 12:54 AM
    When you strip god of any such claims and redefine it as "nature" or "the universe" (assuming there's only one), then I believe that you'd only be unnecessarily complicating what are already beautifully apt, simple and concise terms that, historically, the word god did no justice to through endless false claims.


    That is why a lot of pantheists, including myself do not use the word "god" at all. It's just a word, it only has the meanings ascribed to it by us and others. Like any other word, it has no inherent meaning, but means something based on something else. Within pantheism, there's no need for it as it is, at best, a truism, and at worst, a reminder of abrahamic mythologies.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #20 - January 21, 2011, 01:54 AM
    Quote
    Quote
    However, Pantheism goes further, and adds to atheism an embracing, positive and reverential feeling about our lives on planet Earth, our place in Nature and the wider Universe, and uses nature as our basis for dealing with stress, grief and bereavement. It's a form of spirituality that is totally compatible with science. Indeed, since science is our best way of exploring the Universe, respect for the scientific method and fascination with the discoveries of science are an integral part of World Pantheism.


    I'm an atheist and I see no reason to "go further" than my lack of belief in claimed gods (or to redefine gods) in order to have an "embracing, positive and reverential feeling" about my place in the world, or about any other aspect of my life.

    Quote
    Quote
    Why go beyond straight atheism?

    Does atheism need sexing up? As such, atheism answers only a single question: is there a creator God, or not?


    I disagree.  To many, probably most of us, atheism is simply the lack of belief in any proposed deity.  It is not an answer to an illogical theological question ("is there a creator God?"), or statement of faith, or a belief system, or even a world view in any significant sense.

    Quote
    Yet after you've reached that initial "no God" answer, all the other important questions in life, all the options for mental and emotional wholeness and social and environmental harmony, remain open.

    Important questions for which, again, donning a vague label based on redefining "God" is unnecessary to our efforts in trying to answer.  Efforts, by the way, that should duly be credited to such long-established approaches as humanism, existentialism, psychology and many other specialised and different ways of dealing with these questions.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #21 - January 21, 2011, 01:59 AM
    I thought I had a vague idea about what pantheism is. After reading all posts I don't even have a vague idea any more. Thanks, everyone.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #22 - January 21, 2011, 02:04 AM
    Quote from: arX on January 21, 2011, 01:54 AM
    I'm an atheist and I see no reason to "go further" than my lack of belief in claimed gods (or to redefine gods) in order to have an "embracing, positive and reverential feeling" about my place in the world, or about any other aspect of my life.


    Good for you. But other people are not you and the words and concepts that work for you may not work for them. If they are not causing harm, why does it bother you?

    Quote from: arX on January 21, 2011, 01:54 AM
    Important questions for which, again, donning a vague label based on redefining "God" is unnecessary to our efforts in trying to answer.  Efforts, by the way, that should duly be credited to such long-established approaches as humanism, existentialism, psychology and many other specialised and different ways of dealing with these questions.


    Sure, well pantheism has a long history too, starting from the stoics in ancient greece, buddhism, taoism and other world philosophies. Some of us don't believe in a fixed-pie theory of philosophical scarcity. Lots of us are pantheist, agnostic, atheist, existentialists etc. at the same time.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #23 - January 21, 2011, 02:10 AM
    I dont like using the word "God".

    Because to me it implies a conscious willful entity (like the Abrahamic God) which is what I didnt like about most religions to begin with.

    I only consider myself a pantheist as it is the closest idea of how I view the universe. In the sense that everything is connected, largely through physics, and has some similarities with Taoist view of the world.


    So no, to me God is not the universe.


    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #24 - January 21, 2011, 02:16 AM
    Quote
    However, Pantheism goes further, and adds to atheism an embracing, positive and reverential feeling about our lives on planet Earth, our place in Nature and the wider Universe, and uses nature as our basis for dealing with stress, grief and bereavement. It's a form of spirituality that is totally compatible with science. Indeed, since science is our best way of exploring the Universe, respect for the scientific method and fascination with the discoveries of science are an integral part of World Pantheism.


    Very well put.

    Quote
    I'm an atheist and I see no reason to "go further" than my lack of belief in claimed gods (or to redefine gods) in order to have an "embracing, positive and reverential feeling" about my place in the world, or about any other aspect of my life.


    And that is why Pantheism is of no use to you, which is fine.

    I think most religions have damaged people's views on personal spirituality by making them think just because you follow a way of life you think everyone should. I don't claim anything. Its just how I view the world.


    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #25 - January 21, 2011, 02:22 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 20, 2011, 09:54 PM
    A thought that has often come to my mind is that God is everything - and everything came out of God - the sun, the trees, the rocks, the, the fish and us are all bits of God dancing around with God all around.

    I have never studied Pantheism but have been told that this is what it is.

    Any thoughts?




    Why bother with these mental gymnastics. There's no god and I'm happy with this knowledge.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
    --
    Previously donatelo
    --
    Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #26 - January 21, 2011, 02:25 AM
    To be honest, Pantheism has nothing to do with God.


    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #27 - January 21, 2011, 02:39 AM
    God is only of interest in so far as it (/he/whatever creation or creator we're discussing), poses some minute interest and possibility in the realm of all other theories and explanations we may have as humans for our existence here.

    The Abrahamic God is positively false.

    The pantheist view is obscure, vague, and to me--unnecessary as anything but the pretty doodles i like to smatter the pages of my very important calculus notes with.
    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #28 - January 21, 2011, 02:57 AM
    Quote from: belladonnasix on January 21, 2011, 02:25 AM
    To be honest, Pantheism has nothing to do with God.

    You mean apart from its literal meaning, history and mainstream definitions?

    Quote from: allat on January 21, 2011, 02:04 AM
    Good for you.  But other people are not you and the words and concepts that work for you may not work for them. If they are not causing harm, why does it bother you?

    I was responding to the article's insinuation that a atheist who is not a pantheist is somehow lacking, but now I'm slightly more bemused by how you and belladonnasix (not necessarily the majority of pantheists) define the term by taking "God" out of the equation, despite its literal meaning, history and current mainstream definitions.

    I hope you can understand how that would be confusing, given that pantheism does not have any other unique position apart from God=all/universe/nature.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: God is the Universe = Pantheism?
     Reply #29 - January 21, 2011, 03:06 AM
    We don't use the word "God" because of its insinuations. Pantheism is not about "god" - it's about knowing via science and intuition that the entire universe is interconnected. At its basis, that's all it's about. Words like "god" and whatnot are unnecessary because they're all human constructs. The universe doesn't give a shit whether we call it god, mama, isis, brahmin, tao or nothing at all. It's not about that - it's about knowing that someday everyone you love will die, and so will you and being okay with that knowledge because you know that you will still be part of the universe just in another form. It's a way for atheists to have a sense of community and a place to go when they are grieving, bereaved, and need to feel connected to the rest of the universe.

    That's why there's no need for "god" because we are all part of the universe and in pantheism that's all that is a "given". There's no other idea that's essential to pantheism but the interconnectedness of everything in the universe. Those who call the universe or nature "god" are just using familiar language to explain this notion. But I and bella and many other pantheists do not even use that word as we know it's loaded with abrahamic BS.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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