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 Topic: Understanding Agnosticism

 (Read 9349 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Understanding Agnosticism
     OP - January 22, 2011, 06:01 PM

    This is a subject I've been meaning to ask about for some time now. I think there are quite a few people on here who consider themselves agnostic and I feel like I've never fully grasped the concept...

    Why agnostic?

    What keeps you from rejecting or accepting divinity altogether?

    Is it simply about choosing NOT to chose?


    Personally, I feel like there is a lot of pressure from the general public to identify yourself religiously in one way or another. In some ways I see agnosticism as a forced label to satisfy such ideas. Like we're required to give an answer and neither believing or disbelieving in anything doesn't count enough so we're just stamped with 'agnostic'. Which is sad because I think there is a LOT of varying views among agnostics but the general impression of one tends be 'this person doesn't know what they are' which I'm sure is far from the truth.


    (Disclaimer: This isn't to criticize the view, I'm just curious)



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #1 - January 22, 2011, 06:03 PM

    Atheism is really a sliding scale of agnosticism.  "Agnostic" is really a word used by people who don't realise this, and by theists who want to pretend that lots more people entertain a higher probability of god than they do.

    IMHO :-)

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #2 - January 22, 2011, 06:11 PM

    Why agnostic?

    Because I believe questions about the unknown are precisely that i.e unknown.

    I think its a powerful statement in itself, when nobody knows, then why force yourself to fit into a camp?

    Saying your an atheist requires to many qualifiers so its far simpler using this label, then if somebody is interested then they will ask you to clarify what you mean.

    Unfortunately most people believe that atheism means that you know there is no creator so it also happens to be the strongest position to argue with Muslims, as its an easier leap for them to take.  

    Of course if anyone asks what I know, I say that Islam is false, and what I believe, I say atheism (to the conventional God).

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #3 - January 22, 2011, 06:16 PM


    Personally, I feel like there is a lot of pressure from the general public to identify yourself religiously in one way or another.




    I feel hardly any pressure to identify myself religiously. May be it depends on a country and location?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #4 - January 22, 2011, 06:26 PM

    @belladonnasix

    I assume that you are an atheist?

    Would your behaviour change with regard to the answer to the question of god's existence?
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #5 - January 22, 2011, 06:34 PM

    Quote
    @belladonnasix

    I assume that you are an atheist?

    Would your behaviour change with regard to the answer to the question of god's existence?



    I mostly consider myself pantheist but its true that I don't believe in the conventional god so I'm kinda atheist?  wacko


    And if I understood your question correctly, then no my behavior wouldn't change.



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #6 - January 22, 2011, 06:37 PM

    I feel hardly any pressure to identify myself religiously. May be it depends on a country and location?


    religiously or irreligiously - as in you either believe in god or you dont. anything in between makes you look cowardly or unreliable. I've noticed that attitude a lot actually.. from both religious and non religious people.



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #7 - January 22, 2011, 06:39 PM

    Atheism is really a sliding scale of agnosticism.  "Agnostic" is really a word used by people who don't realise this, and by theists who want to pretend that lots more people entertain a higher probability of god than they do.

    IMHO :-)


    I've heard about this scale, and what you say does make sense. But again its all dependent on how one defines each view...



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #8 - January 22, 2011, 06:39 PM

    And if I understood your question correctly, then no my behavior wouldn't change.

    You are basically saying that to you it doesn't really matter whether there is or isn't a god, right?

    Your moral compass would stay the same if there is or if there isn't a god.

  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #9 - January 22, 2011, 06:42 PM

    Because I believe questions about the unknown are precisely that i.e unknown.

    I think its a powerful statement in itself, when nobody knows, then why force yourself to fit into a camp?

    Saying your an atheist requires to many qualifiers so its far simpler using this label, then if somebody is interested then they will ask you to clarify what you mean.


    agreed 100%

    Quote
    Unfortunately most people believe that atheism means that you know there is no creator so it also happens to be the strongest position to argue with Muslims, as its an easier leap for them to take.


    Thats what I thought it meant, for the longest time.



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #10 - January 22, 2011, 06:42 PM

    You are basically saying that to you it doesn't really matter whether there is or isn't a god, right?

    Your moral compass would stay the same if there is or if there isn't a god.




    yes.



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #11 - January 22, 2011, 06:53 PM

    Excellent!

    You understand atheism in its entirety. The important question here is: does it matter if there is or isn't a god? The answer to the question of god's existence is not "I don't know" (that is a given - nobody really knows hence we are all agnostics in a way) but "it doesn't matter" - that is true atheism.

    What keeps you from rejecting or accepting divinity altogether?

    Is it simply about choosing NOT to chose?

    Pursuant to what you have written about not changing your moral position regarding the god's existence (and I agree with it 100%) - one cannot choose atheism. The choice itself is in the domain of belief - when one chooses one already believes.
    It's like when a person needs a god but cannot find it. Given enough evidence such a person would choose god - even an immoral one such as god of Abrahamic faiths.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #12 - January 22, 2011, 08:10 PM

    So can I get this straight...

    Atheist: believe it is highly unlikely that god exists god is irrelevant; it doesn't matter if it exists or not

    Agnostic: do not have a belief either way

    Deist: believe god exists but that he does not interact with humans

    Pantheist: believe god = universe the entire universe is interconnected and there is no need for god

    Theist: believe god exists and that we must worship him.

    Is this correct?

    EDIT: corrected as per below, thanks!  Wink
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #13 - January 22, 2011, 08:20 PM

    So can I get this straight...

    Atheist: believe it is highly unlikely that god exists

    Agnostic: do not have a belief either way

    Deist: believe god exists but that he does not interact with humans

    Pantheist: believe god = universe

    Theist: believe god exists and that we must worship him.

    Is this correct?

    Have you read my posts?
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #14 - January 22, 2011, 08:44 PM

    No, too many big words!  Tongue

    Okay, okay, I'll read them.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #15 - January 22, 2011, 09:07 PM

    atheism = god is irrelevant; it doesn't matter if it exists or not
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #16 - January 22, 2011, 09:13 PM

    Pantheist: believe god = universe


    And I'd say this is a misunderstanding, as discussed in this thread.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #17 - January 22, 2011, 10:13 PM

    I call myself Agnostic rather than Atheist - not because I don't appreciate that they are the same thing - but because they are not commonly perceived to be the same by most people. In other words most people immediately understand that I reject religions but leave the question of God in a box labelled "Don't Know!".

    Actually I prefer the Arabic word "Ladeeny" لاديني which literally means "Non-religious" (i.e no religion).
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #18 - January 22, 2011, 10:25 PM

    Nobody should hold forth on this topic who hasn't read Bertrand Russell's essay "Am I An Agnostic Or Am I An Atheist?". Have you seen it? It was the first thing I devoured when I began flirting with the devil. Below is an extract of the most germaine parts but you really owe to yourself to read the whole essay:

    Quote
    Proof of God

    Here there comes a practical question which has often troubled me. Whenever I go into a foreign country or a prison or any similar place they always ask me what is my religion.

    I never know whether I should say "Agnostic" or whether I should say "Atheist". It is a very difficult question and I daresay that some of you have been troubled by it. As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one can prove that there is not a God.

    On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.

    None of us would seriously consider the possibility that all the gods of Homer really exist, and yet if you were to set to work to give a logical demonstration that Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, and the rest of them did not exist you would find it an awful job. You could not get such proof.

    Therefore, in regard to the Olympic gods, speaking to a purely philosophical audience, I would say that I am an Agnostic. But speaking popularly, I think that all of us would say in regard to those gods that we were Atheists. In regard to the Christian God, I should, I think, take exactly the same line.


    Skepticism

    There is exactly the same degree of possibility and likelihood of the existence of the Christian God as there is of the existence of the Homeric God. I cannot prove that either the Christian God or the Homeric gods do not exist, but I do not think that their existence is an alternative that is sufficiently probable to be worth serious consideration. Therefore, I suppose that that on these documents that they submit to me on these occasions I ought to say "Atheist", although it has been a very difficult problem, and sometimes I have said one and sometimes the other without any clear principle by which to go.

    When one admits that nothing is certain one must, I think, also admit that some things are much more nearly certain than others. It is much more nearly certain that we are assembled here tonight than it is that this or that political party is in the right. Certainly there are degrees of certainty, and one should be very careful to emphasize that fact, because otherwise one is landed in an utter skepticism, and complete skepticism would, of course, be totally barren and completely useless.


    Persecution

    One must remember that some things are very much more probable than others and may be so probable that it is not worth while to remember in practice that they are not wholly certain, except when it comes to questions of persecution.

    If it comes to burning somebody at the stake for not believing it, then it is worth while to remember that after all he may be right, and it is not worth while to persecute him.

    In general, if a man says, for instance, that the earth is flat, I am quite willing that he should propagate his opinion as hard as he likes. He may, of course, be right but I do not think he is. In practice you will, I think, do better to assume that the earth is round, although, of course, you may be mistaken. Therefore, I do not think we should go in for complete skepticism, but for a doctrine of degrees of probability.

    I think that, on the whole, that is the kind of doctrine that the world needs. The world has become very full of new dogmas. The old dogmas have perhaps decayed, but new dogmas have arisen and, on the whole, I think that a dogma is harmful in proportion to its novelty. New dogmas are much worse than old ones.

    http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell8.htm
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #19 - January 22, 2011, 11:48 PM

    Thanks guys, that clears things up.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #20 - January 23, 2011, 02:20 AM

    I disagree with the definitions here of atheist and agnostic (besides the point that labels typically have subjective descriptions, like "feminist" and "marxist")

    In fact, most self-proclaimed atheists mostly fall under the category of agnosticism, not the other way around. The dictionary definition is the one I subscribe to:

    Atheism: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
    (Another characteristic of Atheists is that they do not believe in an afterlife or any sort of thing like that.)

    Agnosticism: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown or unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

    That being said, a lot of atheists and theists alike confuse agnosticism with regards to the nature and creation of the universe with being agnostic in regards to particular religions. Agnostics generally believe that organized religions and religious texts are false (due to the overwhelming evidence that suggests this), but remain agnostic on questions pertaining to what is true beyond that. Atheists (in what I believe is the true sense of the definition) have a positive belief that there is no supreme being or afterlife, etc. and that when our material bodies die, that is the end of us.


  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #21 - January 23, 2011, 02:51 AM

    Excellent!

    You understand atheism in its entirety. The important question here is: does it matter if there is or isn't a god? The answer to the question of god's existence is not "I don't know" (that is a given - nobody really knows hence we are all agnostics in a way) but "it doesn't matter" - that is true atheism.



    You make a valid point Kenan but I'm curious: why do you think that god's relevance is only in the moral sphere? What about other measures of reality like ontology or aesthetics or logic?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #22 - January 23, 2011, 02:58 AM

    So Kenan, if there was somehow a way in which you could tell that there was a god with absolute certainty (this seems impossible for several reasons, but lets ignore that for now), as well as knew with certainty what his moral laws were and what the consequences were, you would still disobey its moral laws, even if it meant spending eternity in hell (that is, if hell existed)? That seems doubtful. One, for the reason that god would presumably know more than you, as you only have the mere appearance of knowing what was right and wrong, and secondly, eternity is a hell of a long time versus 80 years, and it would only make sense to follow what god wanted for a little while, even if it had the appearance of appearing "wrong".
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #23 - January 23, 2011, 03:01 AM

    Excellent!

    You understand atheism in its entirety. The important question here is: does it matter if there is or isn't a god? The answer to the question of god's existence is not "I don't know" (that is a given - nobody really knows hence we are all agnostics in a way) but "it doesn't matter" - that is true atheism.
    Pursuant to what you have written about not changing your moral position regarding the god's existence (and I agree with it 100%) - one cannot choose atheism. The choice itself is in the domain of belief - when one chooses one already believes.
    It's like when a person needs a god but cannot find it. Given enough evidence such a person would choose god - even an immoral one such as god of Abrahamic faiths.


    i still do not see how 'nobody really knows' implies 'it doesn't matter'. i hold vehemently that it is impossible to discern whether a god exists or not, and therefore the question to me is irrelevant(given of course, said god is defined as transcendental), but that doesn't mean that there is no possible way that i would change my position. to then imply that because i WOULD change my position given enough evidence i 'need god but cannot find it' is just something i don't get. how does that follow at all? this whole tirade of 'true atheism' sounds more like some hardcore theological noncognitivism mixed in with a bit of close-mindedness.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #24 - January 23, 2011, 03:03 AM

    hell, if it was proven beyond all doubt that an abrahamic god exists then logic goes out the fucking window, and so does our conceptions of morality. i'd give the candy of eternal praises to the deity and not give a thought to any conception of how tyrannical this deity is. sing hail marys and hope the motherfucker isn't as irrational as his existence too.
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #25 - January 23, 2011, 04:01 AM

    I call myself an agnostic atheist.  Atheist meaning I reject the idea of a theistic personal God, and agnostic meaning I am not positively asserting that God doesn't exist, because I cannot prove that.  Kinda like an ateapotist who lacks a belief in a celestial teapot but is not positively asserting that the celestial teapot doesn't exist.

    Actually after losing my belief in the Abrahamic God, I just don't think about the question of God's existence any more.  I don't give a shit.  Do people give a shit about the existence of a celestial teapot and whether it should be worshipped?

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #26 - January 23, 2011, 04:05 AM

    I don't know if that analogy holds. A celestial teapot whether it exists or not isn't the source of all existence, the ground of all being, the creator and sustainer of reality - there really is no comparison between the issue of whether there is a god as I described or whether there is a teapot orbiting the earth.
    Unless of course your teapot does have every quality as that outlined above but then it just becomes another name for god.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #27 - January 23, 2011, 04:32 AM

    @z10:  ^^
    The Abrahamic God bears all the hallmarks of a finite manly figure working from within the system, even though Muslims tell us how infinite he is and how out-of--the-system he is.  So the analogy is between 2 reasonably well-defined things in a given system.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #28 - January 23, 2011, 04:34 AM

    So you're refusing to consider any kind of god because the abrahamic god turned out to be boring?  Wink

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Understanding Agnosticism
     Reply #29 - January 23, 2011, 04:46 AM

    I refuse to consider any kind of god except the one I invented.
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