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Theme Changer

 Topic: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance

 (Read 3856 times)
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  • Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     OP - January 28, 2011, 07:54 PM

    Hi!

    I'm new - I'm from Bradford, which is a very lame City.
    I'm not an ex-Muslim, and I've never been religious.
    I find this site fascinating & enjoyable with insightful, educational posts, so well done to you all.

    You're probably wondering why I'm here - I suppose via living in Bradford, I have become somewhat intrigued as to what attracts people to Islam and to the cause of defending this religion.
    I've had a few heated debates with Muslims and Christians within the City. There certainly is a bizarre example of polar opposites in Bradford, possibly because of what the City has become over its recent, unfortunate past. But a very evident group of uneducated, lower class peoples are easily matched by a group of religious peoples, ranging from mildly passionate, to extremely passionate for their chosen faith.

    The story of the Qurayza massacre has recently interested me due to its apparent example of Muhammad acting an incredibly unforgiving manner.
    Today I read this article on the subject from a Muslim perspective.

    Apologies if this specific defence has already been through the works. 

    Banu Qurayza – Massacre or Myth
    Who Were Banu Qurayza?

    Before the Prophet of Islam arrived in Medina there were primarily two groups in Medina, the Jews and Pagans. The Jews were subdivided into three clans, the Banu Qainuqa, Banu Nazir and Banu Quraiza. The other inhabitants of the town were the Aws and Khazraj. Of the two chief clans of the Jews, the Quraiza were the allies of the Aws, while Banu Nazir joined the Khazraj. Fighting frequently broke out between the Aws and the Khazraj , and their Jewish allies however once the Muhammad (SAW) arrived in Medina the Aws and Kharzaj both converted to Islam.

    In an effort to unite the city in peace, the Prophet Muhammad drafted the Covenant of Medina (mithaq-i-Medina) in 622 CE, whose general terms were - Muslims and Jews shall live as one people, each one of the parties shall keep to its own faith, and neither shall interfere with that of the other. In the event of a war with a third party, each was bound to come to the assistance of the other, provided the latter were the aggrieved and not the aggressors. In the event of an attack on Medina, both shall join hands to defend it and peace, when desirable, shall be made after consultation with each other.

    Battle of the Trench (Ghazwah al-Khandaq)

    In 627, the Quraish (the chief aggressors towards Muhammad) decided to go against the Prophet Muhammad once again, after failing at the battles of Badr and Uhud. The level of duplicity in which Banu Qurayza dealt with these circumstances varies with reports, but whether or not it was responsible for instigating the confrontation between the Quraish and Muhammad or merely betrayed the Prophet they did openly align themselves with the Quraishi campaign . This act of treason was designed to encompass the Muslims in battles on all sides, one that would eventually fail them.

    After the siege ended, the Quraish defeated again, Banu Qurayza were left alone to face the Muslims they betrayed (going against virtually every principle outlined within the Covenant of Medina). Forced to surrender, the leader of Banu Qurayza was asked “Will you be satisfied, o Aus, if one of your own number pronounces judgement on them? When they agreed he said that Sa'd b. Mu'adh was the man...Sa'd said, Then I give judgement that the men should be killed, the property divide, and the women and children taken as captives.”

    This incident if often recounted as the mass slaughter of between 800-1000 ‘innocent’ Jews, and is given credence as being documented by a Muslim historian. The events are often twisted and manipulated, however, when one looks deeper it becomes clear that there were extenuating circumstances.

    Documentation – Questionable Methodology

    This incident is primarily noted, or cited as recorded in Sirah Rasul Allah (Sīrat Nabawiyya) by Ibn Isḥaq (Muḥammad ibn Isḥaq ibn Yasār, 704-767 CE). While this work has been lost it has been recounted, at least in recensions, by that of Ibn Isḥaq’s student Ziyad al-Bakka’i (which has also been lost) and that of Ibn Hisham (Abu Muhammad 'Abd al-Malik bin Hisham) whose work had been based upon the work of Ziyad al-Bakka’i; Ibn Hisham’s recounting is the only version to have survived and subsequently has become the basis for any editions of Sīrat Nabawiyya by Ibn Ishaq.

    Before we enter into discussion regarding the events surrounding Banu Qurayza we must approach this from the view of Islamic sciences. In the Islamic sciences (such as Hadith collection) there are very clearly defined and stringent rules regarding authenticity, and the validity of the isnad (chain of narration) was based upon these rules. While these rules were meticulously followed by some (most famously by the likes of Al-Bukhari and Muslim) it was not followed by all, which is why there are varying classifications of hadith based on their isnad.

    "A Sahih hadith is the one which has a continuous isnad, made up of reporters of trustworthy memory from similar authorities, and which is found to be free from any irregularities (i.e. in the text) or defects (i.e. in the isnad)." As defined by Ibn al-Salah

    Since the writing of Sirah (history) did not have to meet the same standards that hadith or fiq (jurisprudence), the collection of its sources did not require the same standards of verification and consequently the Sirah itself could not be classified as sahih as hadith are. While the intentions of Ibn Ishaq may have been good, the veracity of his work can be called into question, in particular his use of questionable sources. This use of questionable sources was openly condemned by one of the most well known mujtahid (authoritive Jurist), and author of al-Muwatta, Imam Malik ibn Anas who called him unequivocally a liar and an impostor . Later scholars such as Ibn Hajar and Ibn Taymiyyah also spoke out against the work of Ibn Ishaq due to his use of questionable or spurious narrators. The validity of many of the hadith and stories relayed by Ibn Ishaq have been called into question due to lack of source material or chain of narration. Further complicating the issue is that Ibn Hisham’s work is based upon that of al-Bakka’i who had been viewed as an unreliable or weak narrator by Abu-Hatim, Al-Nasa’i, and even Ibn-Madini (the teacher of al-Bukhari).

    There are other issues which arise upon closer inspection of ibn Ishaq’s sira and the subsequent retelling of it, most notably “There never existed a unified text for the traditions of ibn Ishaq to which the transmitters and later authors could have referred” because ibn Ishaq often delivered them orally according to Sadun Mahmud al-Samuk. This led to different people taking different aspects of his work and creating their own; notably, besides al-Bakka’i’s recension used by ibn Hisham, there was that of Salama al-Fadl al-Razi used by Tabari. Having noted the potential for errors, we cannot however overlook the fact that Ibn Ishaq was known to have relied primarily on the descendants of Banu Qurayza for details of the prophets campaign against them as handed down by their forefathers, causing Ibn Hajar to then reject the stories in question in the strongest terms: "such odd tales as the story of Qurayza and al-Nadir"

    In a more generally historical perspective one can look at the allegations made regarding this incident and wonder why an incident of this caliber was not preserved. The significance of such an act, and its implications would be indelibly inscribed in the works of Muslim and Jewish historians alike; instead it was preserved primarily in the questionable integrity of one persons work. Having firmly established the qualifications of the very foundation of which the story of Banu Qurayza has been built, let us now turn our attention to the actual events in terms of Islamic precedence.

    The Islamic Perspective of Banu Qurayza

    From the Islamic point of view, the issue of Banu Qurayza was addressed only 3 times, which we will examine now:

    Noble Quran Surah Al-Ahzab (33:25-26)

    And Allah turned back the unbelievers for all their fury: no advantage did they gain; and enough is Allah for the believers in their fight. And Allah is full of strength, able to enforce his will. And those of the people of Al-Kitab who aided them Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts, so that some you slew, and some you made prisoners.

    Sahih Al-Bukhari (Volume 5, Book 59, Number 443)

    Narrated 'Aisha: When the Prophet returned from Al-Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and laid down his arms and took a bath, Gabriel came and said (to the Prophet ), You have laid down your arms? By Allah, we angels have not laid them down yet. So set out for them." The Prophet said, "Where to go?" Gabriel said, "Towards this side," pointing towards Banu Quraiza. So the Prophet went out towards them.

    Sahih Muslim (Book 019, Number 4370)

    It has been narrated on the authority of A'isha who said: Sa'd was wounded on the day of the Battle of the Ditch. A man from the Quraish called Ibn al-Ariqah shot at him an arrow which pierced the artery in the middle of his forearm. The Messenger of Allah (may peacce be upon him) pitched a tent for him in the mosque and would inquire after him being in close proximity. When he returned from the Ditch and laid down his arms and took a bath, the angel Gabriel appeared to him and he was removing dust from his hair (as if he had just returned from the battle). The latter said: You have laid down arms. By God, we haven't (yet) laid them down. So march against them. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) asked: Where? He pointed to Banu Quraiza. So the Messenger of Allah (may peace he upon him) fought against them. They surrendered at the command of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), but he referred the decision about them to Sa'd who said: I decide about them that those of them who can fight be killed, their women and children taken prisoners and their properties distributed (among the Muslims).

    From the Quran we have only a very brief mentioning of the subject, and in it we learn nothing of slaughtering the masses, on the contrary, we actually see the word of Allah stipulate only “so that some you slew, and some you made prisoners.” which can in no way be seen as an endorsement for mass slaughter.

    Once the view is shifted towards the hadith one will notice that of the only two hadith available referencing of Banu Qurayza incident, one mentions nothing of killing leaving just one reference towards the punishment faced by the tribe. This hadith as related in Sahih Muslim refers to the punishment as “that those of them who can fight be killed, their women and children taken prisoners and their properties distributed (among the Muslims)”

    The punishment at first glance seems brutal, and would tend to lead credence to the stories of a wholesale slaughter, however there is more to this below the surface. When the enemy had surrendered, the Prophet of Alah did not immediately saly them all. Instead it was asked of the Jewish leader, “Will you be satisfied, o Aus, if one of your own number pronounces judgement on them? When they agreed he said that Sa'd b. Mu'adh was the man” The significance behind this was simple, Sa’ad b. Mu’adh was a Jewish convert to Islam. As a former Jew, Sa’ad knew the Jewish law and according to al mithaq-i-Medina Jewish law dictated the Jewish community, which meant handing down a sentence in accordance with Jewish law:

    Deuteronomy 20: 12-14

    “And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee”

    If in fact this event happened as described, perhaps the fact that this was a application of Jewish law on a Jewish community for the crimes of treason, may well explain why this incident was not recorded or preserved by other contemporary scholars, nor does it offer precedence in Islamic jurisprudence. An incident of this magnitude, had it been truly the deaths of nearly a thousand people, surely would have either had precedence or set it however the contrary is actually presented by Islam:

    Noble Quran Surah Al’An’am (6:164)

    “Say: "Shall I seek a lord other than Allâh, while He is the Lord of all things? No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another. Then unto your Lord is your return, so He will tell you that wherein you have been differing."

    Amongst the reasons that this account of Banu Qurayza can clearly be refuted are:

    1.) As stated above, the authority of Islam, al Quran clearly states the rule in Islam is to punish only those who were responsible for the sedition.
    2.) Qur'anic refence to this event is minimal. An event of magnitude would have surely been expounded upon for matter of jurisprudence.
    3.) Had this slaughter actually happened, jurists would have adopted it as a precedent. In fact exactly the opposite has been the case. The attitude of jurists, and their rulings, have been more according to the Qur'anic rule in the verse, "No soul shall bear another's burden."
    4.) In the story of Qurayza specific people were named as having been put to death, thus it is a reasonable conclusion that those were the ones who led the sedition and who were consequently punished - not the whole tribe.
    5.) The veracity of the work must come under scrutiny after the authenticity of such events, and the integrity of the authors or their work has so clearly been shown to have substandard quality.

    While there are numerous other reasons to refute this account of the Banu Qurayza, I will simply leave off with the fact that nowhere before, or after has such an event happened. The very idea of such an event is diametrically opposed to the principles of Islamic justice. In the end there will be those who continue to perpetuate a story of hate and violence, to further their own virulent ideologies and promote hate and fear, and there will be those who fight such malicious intent. I hope this information will rest in the latter category.
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #1 - January 28, 2011, 08:07 PM

                                                              WELCOME

    The past is past, the present is present, future will come but no certainty[the way the madness epidemic is gripping the world,you can say :almost doomed!  Cheesy]

    Those who don't move with the times are sure to be left behind!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #2 - January 28, 2011, 08:36 PM

    Where did you read this article today? Oh and btw, Aisha was 54 when Muhammad was 6, because, I think, it better fits with some verses of Al-Qur'aan and there are drawbacks in hadith.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #3 - January 28, 2011, 08:37 PM

    Where did you read this article today? Oh and btw, Aisha was 54 when Muhammad was 6, because, I think, it better fits with some verses of Al-Qur'aan and there are drawbacks in hadith.

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    That is now my facebook status

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #4 - January 28, 2011, 08:46 PM

    Where did you read this article today? Oh and btw, Aisha was 54 when Muhammad was 6, because, I think, it better fits with some verses of Al-Qur'aan and there are drawbacks in hadith.


    This proves you were never a Muslim to begin with!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #5 - January 28, 2011, 08:49 PM

    Where did you read this article today? ....

    http://foreverislam.blogspot.com/2010/02/banu-qurayza-massacre-or-myth.html

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #6 - January 28, 2011, 09:22 PM

    This proves you were never a Muslim to begin with!

     Damn I didn't know that  All these Ex-Muslims are parading around CEMB because they had fight in their homes  with their mullah partners.

    trouble makers..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #7 - January 28, 2011, 09:29 PM

    Hypoyeezeveecrucifier, you are more than welcome to through any accusations at me in my intro thread, instead of usual cluttering of other threads. However, be prepared to be exposed like ahmed2010 once was.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #8 - January 28, 2011, 09:36 PM

     yeezevee wrote
    Quote
    Damn I didn't know that  All these Ex-Muslims are parading around CEMB because they had fight in their homes  with their mullah partners.

    trouble makers..

    Alif   says
    Hypoyeezeveecrucifier,  

      take it easy Alex.. that was a Joke.,  

    I am NOT an ex-m., but one of the great grandfather apparently was a perfect Shia Muslim who can even kill his daughter for not being good Muslim..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #9 - January 28, 2011, 11:19 PM

     Cheesy Cheesy I was just joking! When you reversed the ages of Muhammad and Aisha I thought you were being sarcastic/joking unless it was a typo! Roll Eyes
    I thought a believing Muslim would have picked that up and triumphantly made that all time classic statement,missing its undertone.

    Btw please don't bracket me with yeezevee ,he is unique!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #10 - January 28, 2011, 11:36 PM


    Btw please don't bracket me with yeezevee ,he is unique!

    yes don't insult yeezevee...   CEMB will fine all of you ex-ms for such actions..

    Oops I mean don't insult hypocrucifier.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #11 - January 28, 2011, 11:56 PM

    Sincere condolences about the great grandfather.

    It was certainly not a typo - every decent Muslim should believe it  Afro

    OK, my 2 dear friends, enough with apologies. I will now wage keyboard jihad against such evil-doers as Wanabi Al-Arabi and AbaAbdillahi

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #12 - January 29, 2011, 12:04 AM

    clap Full steam ahead  mate! The Kaffirs are on a high! Cheesy



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #13 - January 29, 2011, 12:11 AM

    ^ This and +1. (I have no idea what the symbols mean - please tell - but I have seen people do it in apparent approval)

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #14 - January 29, 2011, 12:40 AM

    ^ This and +1. (I have no idea what the symbols mean - please tell - but I have seen people do it in apparent approval)

    +1

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #15 - January 29, 2011, 01:56 AM

    Sincere condolences about the great grandfather.

    Huh condolences?? who cares about that dead bugger .. he killed enough ., he did enough damage to his own son in-law and grand son..
    Quote
    OK, my 2 dear friends, enough with apologies. I will now wage keyboard jihad against such evil-doers as Wanabi Al-Arabi and AbaAbdillahi

    nah,  .. there is no evil doer, the world spins in theory of relativity

    There is just evil.. so do Jihad on Evil.. Alex L M

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #16 - January 29, 2011, 02:10 AM

    Condolences only in a sense that it had to mess you up in a similar way Al-Islam messed up Ex-Muslims. *HUG*

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #17 - January 29, 2011, 11:47 AM

    Hi guys!

    My post has gone slightly out of track lol.

    I don't fully understand the authenticity of certain Hadith, or even some of the writers mentioned, admittedly I'm still pretty new to understanding Islamic arguments and how such arguments can be debunked and refuted.

    Anybody care to (briefly) explain why this argument is wrong?

    P.s - do Hassan's video's still exist?
    I subscribed to his channel months ago, (which is how I came across this site), but he no longer stores them on his page.
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #18 - January 29, 2011, 11:53 AM

    P.s - do Hassan's video's still exist?
    I subscribed to his channel months ago, (which is how I came across this site), but he no longer stores them on his page.

    yep, there on CEMBadmins youtube channel.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Banu Qurayza - the Muslim stance
     Reply #19 - January 29, 2011, 02:42 PM

    Alan, do you think it is possible with certainty to say anything about early history of Islam? Authenticity of hadith simply means that Muslim scholars (the likes of those who giggle at evolution today) have established them to be reliable some hundred or more years after Muhammad was dead. In other words, stories told and collected by men, later edited and analyzed by men, then by magic divine and a source of shariah. The whole thing is laughable. So, you know, this marginal theory you present may be right, though people are naturally skeptical of such marginal theories. Some even laughed when I said that Muhammad was 6 when Aisha was 54. Why?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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