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 Topic: FGM and Islam

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  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #30 - February 06, 2011, 01:29 PM
    @Debunker

    If I was making a claim I'd go looking for evidence, but I was more asking a question.  Is there a verse in the Qur'an, (I'm sure you know its contents better than I do), which talks about when the circumcised part meets the circumcised part?  And if so, how do you interpret that in a way that does not allow FGM?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #31 - February 06, 2011, 01:32 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 01:22 PM
    are you willing to generalize this to include every aspect of life, not only religion?

    Yep, from moral perspective divine is irrelevant.
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #32 - February 06, 2011, 01:34 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 06, 2011, 01:29 PM
     Is there a verse in the Qur'an, (I'm sure you know its contents better than I do), which talks about when the circumcised part meets the circumcised part?  

    There  is absolutely NO VERSE in Quran  that talks about Sexual activity/procedure/method  of male and female . But there are verses in Quran that are ordained by Allah in support of  Prophet Muhammad sleeping with many  women and that starts after the death of Khadija his first wife.
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #33 - February 06, 2011, 01:35 PM
    @debunker

    Quote from: Kenan on February 06, 2011, 01:21 PM
    Pursuant to what I have written in my previous post - in case there was a verse in Quran clearly sanctioning FGM, would you have a problem with it?

    bump
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #34 - February 06, 2011, 01:36 PM
    Quote
    If I was making a claim I'd go looking for evidence, but I was more asking a question.  Is there a verse in the Qur'an, (I'm sure you know its contents better than I do), which talks about when the circumcised part meets the circumcised part?  And if so, how do you interpret that in a way that does not allow FGM?


    there is no such verses, if there were then OF COURSE the phrase "circumcised part meets the circumcised part" necessarily imply MGM as well as FGM. But the fact is, not even MGM is referred to in the Quran except by basically saying Muslims should emulate Abraham (who, according to Hadith, circumsized himself).  
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #35 - February 06, 2011, 01:42 PM
    @ kenan

    Quote
    Pursuant to what I have written in my previous post - in case there was a verse in Quran clearly sanctioning FGM, would you have a problem with it?


    Of course. It would mean that the God who created women didn't know that removing part of their sexual organs would turn them into sexual zombies, neither did he know that that sexual organs do NOT initiate sexual desire, the brain does.

    btw, if the prophet did indeed say that it was OK to remove a small part of the female sexual organ then that would only reflect his ignorance on this issue, nothing more (and he was indeed ignorant on too many issues).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #36 - February 06, 2011, 01:52 PM
    I think this explains the Islamic view of FGM nicely:

    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Islamonline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543886

    As far as I know its common amongst muslim countries in Africa. I don't think its common in Saudi, Pakistan, Iraq, Turkey etc.
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #37 - February 06, 2011, 01:58 PM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on February 06, 2011, 01:52 PM
    I think this explains the Islamic view of FGM nicely:

    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Islamonline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543886

    As far as I know its common amongst muslim countries in Africa. I don't think its common in Saudi, Pakistan, Iraq, Turkey etc.

    I say women who had FGM look more radiant, beautiful live longer as they are  more religious ., I think it is a good procedure Aphrodite., think about it..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #38 - February 06, 2011, 02:09 PM
     lipsrsealed
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #39 - February 06, 2011, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 01:42 PM
    @ kenan

    Of course. It would mean that the God who created women didn't know that removing part of their sexual organs would turn them into sexual zombies, neither did he know that that sexual organs do NOT initiate sexual desire, the brain does.

    That's good to hear. How do you relate that to male circumcision though?

    However some who are less intellectually robust than you could see that as a justification for FGM (this is a purely hypothetical scenario ofc). Because something that is ordained (from a subjective pov) by divine is moral and 'right' by default - simply because god cannot be immoral. Flying planes into buildings and killing civilians? Perfectly moral as long as one is (subjectively) 100% sure that god commanded it or is at least OK with it.
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #40 - February 06, 2011, 04:21 PM
    Quote
    That's good to hear. How do you relate that to male circumcision though?


    MGM is a harmless ritual (does not affect male libido), and I emphasize the word ritual, unlike FGM, which, according to the Hadith (and assuming it was indeed something the prophet said) was justified as something benificial, rather than being a ritual (he was saying what he personally thought on the matter, which was very wrong, of course).
     
    Quote
    However some who are less intellectually robust than you could see that as a justification for FGM (this is a purely hypothetical scenario ofc). Because something that is ordained (from a subjective pov) by divine is moral and 'right' by default - simply because god cannot be immoral. Flying planes into buildings and killing civilians? Perfectly moral as long as one is (subjectively) 100% sure that god commanded it or is at least OK with it.


    For many religionists, the God they worship is themselves. i believe that indeed God can never be wrong in what *He* does with His creation. However, to see some of His creation justify their crimes with divine words, then they're making it up.    
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #41 - February 06, 2011, 05:17 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 04:21 PM
     i believe that indeed God can never be wrong in what *He* does with His creation. However, to see some of His creation justify their crimes with divine words, then they're making it up.    

    yes...   divine words..divine words...divine words..  
    where can I find them??  I have read many books that says they have divine words But I only see words of Brain.. the human brain..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #42 - February 06, 2011, 05:27 PM
    @debunker

    Quote
    btw, if the prophet did indeed say that it was OK to remove a small part of the female sexual organ then that would only reflect his ignorance on this issue, nothing more (and he was indeed ignorant on too many issues).


    Aren't Muslims supposed to think that Muhammad was infallible?  Huh?
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #43 - February 06, 2011, 06:01 PM
    Quote
    Aren't Muslims supposed to think that Muhammad was infallible?  

     

    i think they tend to think that he is infallible and that everything he said was correct, but if you read hadith, you'd come across more than one occasion where he was corrected by his companions. for example, He had certain defense plans in one battle, which were modified by one of his companions. He thought that Palm trees don't need pollenation to produce dates, and he was later proven wrong. he thought that there's no such thing as infectious diseases, and although others argued with him, he insisted that there couldn't be, but we now know he was absolutely wrong.
     
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #44 - February 06, 2011, 06:16 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 06:01 PM


    i think they tend to think that he is infallible and that everything he said was correct, but if you read hadith, you'd come across more than one occasion where he was corrected by his companions. for example, He had certain defense plans in one battle, which were modified by one of his companions. He thought that Palm trees don't need pollenation to produce dates, and he was later proven wrong. he thought that there's no such thing as infectious diseases, and although others argued with him, he insisted that there couldn't be, but we now know he was absolutely wrong.


    Yeah, there are ahadith in which he himself acknowledges his own fallibility, although Muslims will still continue to maintain that he was divinely protected from committing wrong action or saying something incorrect. How they do it, I don't know.

    But I'm pretty sure I saw a hadith or two in which Muhammad said that if there's a plague in your country then you're not supposed to leave it, so as not to spread it, and if there's a plague elsewhere, you're to stay away from it. Seems contrary to his disbelieving in infectious diseases, although I could have misread it.
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #45 - February 06, 2011, 06:29 PM
    Quote
    Yeah, there are ahadith in which he himself acknowledges his own fallibility, although Muslims will still continue to maintain that he was divinely protected from committing wrong action or saying something incorrect. How they do it, I don't know.


    those are known as Muhammedans (Muhammed worshippers). In any case, the Quran itself says that Muhammed was a human like us, except he received revelations. Which of his speach were claimed by him to be revelations? 1- the Quran 2- Huh?

    Quote
    But I'm pretty sure I saw a hadith or two in which Muhammad said that if there's a plague in your country then you're not supposed to leave it, so as not to spread it, and if there's a plague elsewhere, you're to stay away from it. Seems contrary to his disbelieving in infectious diseases, although I could have misread it.

    never came across that hadith, but if it exists, this won't be the first contradiction in hadith books. (I have even seen instances of contradicting hadiths, back-to-back, in Bukhari's and yet he had the audacity to call his book "Sahih").
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #46 - February 06, 2011, 08:19 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 06:01 PM


    i think they tend to think that he is infallible and that everything he said was correct,

    I can understand why if he was Allahs chosen messenger & sent to guide & instruct mankind.  We are also lead to believe he must have thought he was good enough to challenge Allah when he thought Allah was mistaken by giving us too many obligatory prayers & successfully bartared it down to 5.

    Quote
    but if you read hadith, you'd come across more than one occasion where he was corrected by his companions. for example, He had certain defense plans in one battle, which were modified by one of his companions. He thought that Palm trees don't need pollenation to produce dates, and he was later proven wrong. he thought that there's no such thing as infectious diseases, and although others argued with him, he insisted that there couldn't be, but we now know he was absolutely wrong.
     


    Then why would Allah allow his messenger to say incorrect things when he knew full well, as Gods chosen messenger, that people would emulate him?  Allah even entrusted him with magic powers/miraculous knowledge by splitting the moon, so he wasnt an ordinary human by any accounts.
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  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #47 - February 06, 2011, 08:38 PM
    Quote
    can understand why if he was Allahs chosen messenger & sent to guide & instruct mankind.  We are also lead to believe he must have thought he was good enough to challenge Allah when he thought Allah was mistaken by giving us too many obligatory prayers & successfully bartared it down to 5.


    i really don't know why i bother but here goes. First, and assuming that (the weakly narrated?) hadith about the number of the daily prayers was correct, in that Hadith Muhammed was not "challenging" God, he was begging Him. And what do you mean good enough? Good enough to be an infallible angel?

    Quote
    Then why would Allah allow his messenger to say incorrect things when he knew full well, as Gods chosen messenger, that people would emulate him?  Allah even entrusted him with magic powers/miraculous knowledge by splitting the moon, so he wasnt an ordinary human by any accounts.


    1- Because God wanted his messenger to be a man.
    2- we have been over this splitting the moon before (i don't believe in it, smply because the Quran repeatedly says Muhammed never performed miracles: those nations before him, disbelieved despite miracles).
    3- Jesus, Moses or any of the other prophets did NOT possess magical powers! They performed these miracles in the name of God.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #48 - February 06, 2011, 09:07 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 08:38 PM
    i really don't know why i bother but here goes. First, and assuming that (the weakly narrated?) hadith about the number of the daily prayers was correct, in that Hadith Muhammed was not "challenging" God, he was begging Him.

    begging, challenging, wishing, *replace with word of your choice* - the point still remains.  He though God was wrong & over-estimated mans abilities i.e. Muhammed thought he knew better.

    Quote
    And what do you mean good enough? Good enough to be an infallible angel?

     
    No, good enough to question God, when he is the only one (barring other prophets) that had actually seen/spoke to him.  Most of us kaffirs wouldnt challenge God if he directly spoke to us, so why would Muhammed who was supposedly a good man?
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  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #49 - February 06, 2011, 09:20 PM
    no, the point of that Hadith (regardless of whether it was true or not) is that Man's duty is to be in prayer *all the time*, but the prophet interceded on the behalf of men to make life a little easier.

    In any case, it wasn't only Muhammed, we have the Quran tell us that Moses still wanted to see God, despite God telling him, he won't be able to see Him, Abraham asking God to show him how He can raise the dead, etc... the point is prophets did negotiate with God and asked questions (even angels did) but then again, that's a whole different topic, i don't wish to discuss.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #50 - February 06, 2011, 09:25 PM
    @debunker

    Quote
    Which of his speach were claimed by him to be revelations?


    Hadith Qudsi?

    And I know it doesn't mean much to you, but I read in Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Q. 17:39) that Muhammad's actions and 'sunnah' are pretty much all revelatory, inspired to him by Allah so that the believers would follow them. I suppose the same would go for his words, though I'm not sure how good the scriptural evidence for that is.

    Quote
    never came across that hadith


    It's from your favourite, Bukhari  Wink

    Volume 4, Book 56, Number 679:

    Narrated Usama bin Zaid:

    Allah's Apostle said, "Plague was a means of torture sent on a group of Israelis (or on some people before you). So if you hear of its spread in a land, don't approach it, and if a plague should appear in a land where you are present, then don't leave that land in order to run away from it (i.e. plague)."

    Where did you see the one in which said Muhammad didn't know about infectious diseases, just out of curiosity?

    Quote
    (I have even seen instances of contradicting hadiths, back-to-back, in Bukhari's and yet he had the audacity to call his book "Sahih").


    Are any of the mainstream books of ahadith any good, in your opinion?
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #51 - February 06, 2011, 09:33 PM
    @ zebedee

    Quote
    Hadith Qudsi?


    yes, i forgot about that.

    Quote
    And I know it doesn't mean much to you, but I read in Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Q. 17:39) that Muhammad's actions and 'sunnah' are pretty much all revelatory, inspired to him by Allah so that the believers would follow them. I suppose the same would go for his words, though I'm not sure how good the scriptural evidence for that is.


    But then there is a Hadith (which i just heard an hour ago, cited by a Kuwaiti sheikh encouraging the Egyptian revolution) which says the prophet said when he's mistaken, they should correct him.

    Quote
    Where did you see the one in which said Muhammad didn't know about infectious diseases, just out of curiosity?


    hassan posted it somewhere on this forum.

    Quote
    Are any of the mainstream books of ahadith any good, in your opinion?


    i believe all of them are an excellent start, a work in progess, but an unfinished work, nevertheless.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: FGM and Islam
     Reply #52 - March 22, 2011, 09:27 AM
    It is so fucking nauseating that the gods were so hung up on pussy and cocks.  I think MGM is as deplorable as FGM.  One could understand MGM in light of hygiene but FFS, one can wash their dicks after sex.  If the women smelt bad back then, cutting shit off will not make the smell go away.  I find it hard to believe even in primitive cultures, a cup of water could not be used to wash up.

    When I was in the army, you learned to shave, and bathe in a litre of water. If one was in the desert with water shortages, the last thing on ones mind would be pussy or cock, you would be looking for the nearest water hole or oasis.

    This even stems from the judaic texts that suggest that folk were unclean if they had sex and had to at least go wash before entering the temple.  The population back then must have been vastly smaller so the ratio of access to water was better than it is today in a primitive culture.  The body anyway has ways of protecting itself wrt hygiene releasing chemicals that combat skin bacteria.
    My invisible friend loves U2
  • FGM and Islam
     Reply #53 - June 23, 2016, 01:33 PM
    'No-one would marry me unless I had FGM'[/url]  that today's news in BBC.

    Quote
    "Zara" is the first person in the UK to be given a joint court order to protect her from both forced marriage and female genital mutilation (FGM).  Her father tried to arrange a forced marriage for her on several occasions, but was told by prospective partners -and their families - that they would not marry her unless she underwent FGM, also known as female circumcision.

    The Victoria Derbyshire programme is broadcast on weekdays from 09:00-11:00 on BBC Two and the BBC News Channel.

    well there is also video interview in that link

    and this from , 11 May 2016  dailymail.co.uk




    Mariya Karimjee, 27, was cut on a tarp on a living room floor in Karachi, Pakistan, where she lived as a young child and is now based  The writer, who is from a sect of Shiite Muslims known as Dawoodi Bohra  She said it was so painful in the aftermath that she avoided urinating and later found it was excruciating to have sex   After her family moved to Texas she started reading about female anatomy and later found out she had been subjected to female genital mutilation

    The 27-year-old, who moved back to Karachi four years ago, shared details of her experiences with The Heart and This American Life, based on an essay she wrote last year for The Big Roundtable.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmfflgHKCfU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32g-HCmdNCc
     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • FGM and Islam
     Reply #54 - June 23, 2016, 02:05 PM
    Quote from: SeekerSA on March 22, 2011, 09:27 AM
    It is so fucking nauseating that the gods were so hung up on pussy and cocks.  I think MGM is as deplorable as FGM.  One could understand MGM in light of hygiene but FFS, one can wash their dicks after sex.  If the women smelt bad back then, cutting shit off will not make the smell go away.  I find it hard to believe even in primitive cultures, a cup of water could not be used to wash up.
    When I was in the army, you learned to shave, and bathe in a litre of water. If one was in the desert with water shortages, the last thing on ones mind would be pussy or cock, you would be looking for the nearest water hole or oasis.
    This even stems from the judaic texts that suggest that folk were unclean if they had sex and had to at least go wash before entering the temple.  The population back then must have been vastly smaller so the ratio of access to water was better than it is today in a primitive culture.  The body anyway has ways of protecting itself wrt hygiene releasing chemicals that combat skin bacteria.


    But it really demonstrates your dedication, that you are willing to cut up your children's genitals, doesn't it?


    And regarding the point that genital mutilation has nothing to do with religion, it is all about culture, I think this put it quite clearly:
    Quote
    Among the "traditional voices" within her father's community, she explains, FGM is often viewed as an expectation, and she was being labelled as "not respectable, not Muslim" for not having undergone it.



    I have always found it weird, that the law where I live protects dogs against having ears or tails snipped, but it is OK to remove half the surface area of a baby's penis, just because your superstition demands it or you consider it "aesthetically pleasing".

    FGM is at least forbidden, but as far as I know, no-one around here has dared to bring a case to court.
  • FGM and Islam
     Reply #55 - June 23, 2016, 02:41 PM
    People seem to think that religion is not part of a culture. Religion provides one a fundamental basis of most cultures. People seem to think that unauthentic religious views are not religious views. Given the nature of religious interpretation what people really are claiming is their particular interpretation is right, the other group's is wrong, thus not religion....
  • FGM and Islam
     Reply #56 - June 23, 2016, 03:33 PM
    I completely agree.

    If you do something and motivate or justify it with religion, then it is a religious act for you.
    Other subscribers to the same religion may disagree but that doesn't change that it motivated you to do it.

    If a couple of million people and leading figures agree with you, then it certainly is religion, no matter what "the book " may say.

    Rituals like infant babtism, church marriage, confirmation, church bells and the silly dressing of priests has absolutely no backing in the bible... But ask the believers, and they will insist that is is the only right way to do it.



  • FGM and Islam
     Reply #57 - June 23, 2016, 03:33 PM
    The ol' culture doesn't and shouldn't influence religion and vice versa is one of the most BS and frustrating piece-of-shit arguments I've ever heard by Muslims.

    There isn't Christianity there are Christianities, there isn't Islam there are Islams. There isn't just one ism there isms and schisms within that. It's necessary for religion to adapt and be adopted in local, regional and ethnic cultures to stay relevant and alive.
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