The expanding universe

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #30 - February 07, 2011, 08:30 PM

Within a distance that would easily have reached Arabia were creation myths in Egypt and Babylon that described the splitting of earth and heaven - in fact it was a common theme around the world. In China the creator Pangu split the Heaven from the Earth when it was integrated into one body that resembled an egg.

In other words not only is it a mistake - it was a common mistake.

Here is Pangu when he "Cleft the Heavens & the Earth asunder!"
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #31 - February 07, 2011, 08:34 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 07, 2011, 08:30 PM
Within a distance that would easily have reached Arabia were creation myths in Egypt and Babylon that described the splitting of earth and heaven - in fact it was a common theme around the world. In China the creator Pangu split the heaven from the Earth when it was integrated into one body that resembled an egg.

To which a Muslim will argue "And how would an illiterate man know about all this mythology from Babylon and China?" - we both know it is a crap counter argument but it takes time, whereas if I only mention that Genesis says the heaven + earth were once one and separated it is easy to show that he could have known about Genesis.

Quote from: Hassan on February 07, 2011, 08:30 PM
Here he is when he "Cleft it asunder!"

Let me get this 100% clear. Are you saying that 21:30 where it says Allah cleft assunder the Heaven and the Earth the Quran uses a present on-going sense, so it could literally be read as "Cleaving assunder"?

Do you know any others? I really need something not related to the big bang claim because otherwise people will claim that they are corroborating each other. Do you know any others?

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #32 - February 07, 2011, 08:49 PM

Quote
Let me get this 100% clear. Are you saying that 21:30 where it says Allah cleft assunder the Heaven and the Earth the Quran uses a present on-going sense, so it could literally be read as "Cleaving assunder"?

no, he's not saying that. the verse said "cleft asunder".

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #33 - February 07, 2011, 08:50 PM

Ah, for some reason I read "Here is Pangu when" as "He is when". Good job I double checked

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #34 - February 07, 2011, 09:14 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 07, 2011, 08:49 PM
no, he's not saying that. the verse said "cleft asunder".

This^
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #35 - February 07, 2011, 09:17 PM

What I really need to do next is to show that just because the Quran says "And we built/constructed the sky/heaven/heavens with hands and we are expanding" the word "expanding" doesn't necessarily mean it is expanding, it could just mean it has been expanded.

Debunker is going to see if he can find an example where the Quran says something in a present tense which is obviously meant as a past tense. That should do it. If you are aware of something like this in the meantime then speak up

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #36 - February 07, 2011, 09:33 PM

@ TR

The verse simply says what God intended for the skies, when He created them, is that they be vast/roomy.

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #37 - February 07, 2011, 09:35 PM

@ hassan

I have a question i was wondering if you ever thought of as a muslim (or ex-Muslim).

Why does islamic literature claim that Muhammed, despite his being a man, was a messenger to Jinn (as well as men), when the Quran, in response to a question by Meccans, said if they were angels, God would have sent them an angel as a prophet, which, by the same token, implies that Muhammed should be unfit to be a prophet to jinn? A new video idea, perhaps?

EDIT: the verse wasn't a response to a question but rather a response to disbelief based on lack of angel messengers.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #38 - February 07, 2011, 09:39 PM

@ hassan

i'm referring to this verse:
Isra:95
قُل لَّوْ كَانَ فِي الأَرْضِ مَلآئِكَةٌ يَمْشُونَ مُطْمَئِنِّينَ لَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ السَّمَاء مَلَكًا رَّسُولاً

as evidence against the claim.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #39 - February 07, 2011, 09:42 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 07, 2011, 09:33 PM
The verse simply says what God intended for the skies, when He created them, is that they be vast/roomy.

It does literally say "we are expanding" in the present tense doesn't it? In order to counter claims that this is correct I need to show that present tense is used elsewhere for past events, proving that it warrants no special attention.

Not speaking Arabic however I cannot do it without assistance

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #40 - February 07, 2011, 09:47 PM

Quote
It does literally say "we are expanding" in the present tense doesn't it?

yes.

Quote
In order to counter claims that this is correct I need to show that present tense is used elsewhere for past events, proving that it warrants no special attention.

Not speaking Arabic however I cannot do it without assistance

but chances are 99.99999% of your channel viewers don't speak Arabic, so they can only refer to translations (which are quite influenced by Tafsir, btw).

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #41 - February 07, 2011, 09:58 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 07, 2011, 09:47 PM
but chances are 99.99999% of your channel viewers don't speak Arabic, so they can only refer to translations (which are quite influenced by Tafsir, btw).

If a job is worth doing then it is worth doing properly I don't want someone later to tell me it says "expandING" and for me to dismiss it without evidence that this fact is irrelevant.

If you spot something in present tense which must be in a past tense (i.e. god created adam and eve etc) then please do let me know. I don't think there's much point in proceeding in the meantime.

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #42 - February 07, 2011, 10:06 PM

Quote
If you spot something in present tense which must be in a past tense (i.e. god created adam and eve etc) then please do let me know. I don't think there's much point in proceeding in the meantime.

will do. I actually hate those claims of scientific miracles so much, i even refuted a couple of them using non other than the quran itself.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8704.0

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #43 - February 07, 2011, 10:15 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 07, 2011, 10:06 PM
will do.

I appreciate it greatly.

Quote from: debunker on February 07, 2011, 10:06 PM
I actually hate those claims of scientific miracles so much, i even refuted a couple of them using non other than the quran itself. http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8704.0

I too hate those lies. When I started to look at Islam I really expected non Muslims to lie about it. I was obviously naive because what I never expected was to discover that Muslims are lying too, it just didn't occur to me. Finding out that everyone is lying to me was my biggest shock, and the source of one of my signatures "Assume everyone is lying".

I'll have a read through that link possibly this weekend. You should go to a Zakir Naik conference

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #44 - February 07, 2011, 10:17 PM

read the first couple of lines regarding the "water miracle":

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8704.msg217024#msg217024

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #45 - February 07, 2011, 10:24 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 07, 2011, 09:35 PM
@ hassan

I have a question i was wondering if you ever thought of as a muslim (or ex-Muslim).

Why does islamic literature claim that Muhammed, despite his being a man, was a messenger to Jinn (as well as men), when the Quran, in response to a question by Meccans, said if they were angels, God would have sent them an angel as a prophet, which, by the same token, implies that Muhammed should be unfit to be a prophet to jinn? A new video idea, perhaps?

EDIT: the verse wasn't a response to a question but rather a response to disbelief based on lack of angel messengers.

Yes, I always thought that was bizarre - but I had a box called "God will explain later" where I put stuff that didn't make sense. The Qur'an was true - it was from God - there are no contradictions.

Yes, it would make an interesting vid.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #46 - February 07, 2011, 10:39 PM

Quote
Yes, I always thought that was bizarre - but I had a box called "God will explain later" where I put stuff that didn't make sense. The Qur'an was true - it was from God - there are no contradictions.

but does it say, in the quran, that Muhammed was a messenger to Jinn, too? Sure there's mention of Jinn being pleased by what they heard of Quranic recitation and believing in it, etc, etc, but i don't recall where the Quran says Muhammed was their messenger too. In fact, the Quran even barely addressed them (speaking in terms of the percentage of verses addressed to them).

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #47 - February 07, 2011, 11:11 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 07, 2011, 10:24 PM
Yes, I always thought that was bizarre - but I had a box called "God will explain later" where I put stuff that didn't make sense. The Qur'an was true - it was from God - there are no contradictions.

Yes, it would make an interesting vid.

btw the Qur'an often talks as if it's talking to the Jinn also i.e. the challenge to produce a verse includes jinn, it also says some jinn listened to the Qur'an and verses that combine "Men & Jinn" - that is what I found bizarre - aswell as the claim that Muhammad was for both.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #48 - February 07, 2011, 11:12 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 07, 2011, 10:39 PM
but does it say, in the quran, that Muhammed was a messenger to Jinn, too? Sure there's mention of Jinn being pleased by what they heard of Quranic recitation and believing in it, etc, etc, but i don't recall where the Quran says Muhammed was their messenger too. In fact, the Quran even barely addressed them (speaking in terms of the percentage of verses addressed to them).

No it doesn't say that in a clear manner - but I can see why some think that.

tbh I find the language of the Qur'an odd - just as I find the claim that it was for both odd.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #49 - February 07, 2011, 11:20 PM

The Qur'an says that Muhammad was a warner to the ''Aalameen,' which includes Jinn.

Al-Furqan:1:

تَبَارَكَ ٱلَّذِي نَزَّلَ ٱلْفُرْقَانَ عَلَىٰ عَبْدِهِ لِيَكُونَ لِلْعَالَمِينَ نَذِيراً

Blessed be He who has sent down the Salvation upon His servant, that he may be a warner to all beings
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #50 - February 07, 2011, 11:27 PM

@ Hassan

Quote
No it doesn't say that in a clear manner - but I can see why some think that.

Sunnis of course, have their Hadiths.

Quote
tbh I find the language of the Qur'an odd - just as I find the claim that it was for both odd.

To be honest, if this claim can be proven using the Quran, then it's an apparent huge contradiction (the Quran, as a whole, is decidely for human audience).

as for the language challenge, it can be just interpreted that that God is challenging men even if they allied themselves with deviant supernatural power...

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #51 - February 07, 2011, 11:28 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on February 07, 2011, 11:20 PM
The Qur'an says that Muhammad was a warner to the ''Aalameen,' which includes Jinn.

Al-Furqan:1:

تَبَارَكَ ٱلَّذِي نَزَّلَ ٱلْفُرْقَانَ عَلَىٰ عَبْدِهِ لِيَكُونَ لِلْعَالَمِينَ نَذِيراً

Blessed be He who has sent down the Salvation upon His servant, that he may be a warner to all beings

AlAlameen really means "the world".. it means different things in different contexts (Muhammed wasn't a messenger to angels, for example).

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #52 - February 07, 2011, 11:31 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 07, 2011, 11:27 PM
as for the language challenge, it can be just interpreted that that God is challenging men even if they allied themselves with deviant supernatural power...

It can indeed - and that's how I interpreted it.

But I have to say I always found stuff about "Jinn" uncomfortable - maybe it was my rational/wysiwyg side - and so I tended to skip over those verses quickly.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #53 - February 07, 2011, 11:40 PM

Jinn, like angels, are supernatural beings, so if one is willing to believe God exists, all sorts of superntural claims are possible, but I agree that the claim that Jinns exist is a tough one to swollow.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #54 - February 07, 2011, 11:45 PM

@Kenan

Quote
lol

What happened?

Nothing particularly interesting. They just seem rather perplexed by my fixation on the subject. My sister said to me 'don't convert on us.' Lol, if she only had read some of the shit I have about Islam she'd realise just how remote a possibility that is. My brother also raised an eye-brow when he saw my collection of rather weighty tomes of Islamic literature. Strange. They seem to think that even if I were to convert I'd turn into a thobe-wearing, wife-beating, kafir-killing beardo overnight.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #55 - February 07, 2011, 11:51 PM

Who knows you better than your relatives? Did not uncle of the holy prophet - Father of Flame - realize, by the grace of God, that it was bullshit?

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #56 - February 07, 2011, 11:54 PM

@ zebedee

why don't you just tell them you're an atheist?

It is curious though that you're interested in Islam, why? i believe you never were a muslim, so why all the interest? is it just an interest in the "otherness" of Islam?

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #57 - February 08, 2011, 12:01 AM

@debunker

Well, as you well know, ''alameen' is the plural of ''alam,' and each 'alam' is a 'realm' or 'world' of existence: the 'world' of men and the 'world' of jinn. Seems to me that the verse means that Muhammad is not just a warner to the world of men alone, but to jinn also; a warner to all worlds, just as Allah is the 'Rabb' of all worlds. As for the angels, it goes without saying that they don't have warners, as they have no need, but the Qur'an makes it clear that both men and jinn are sent messengers:

[6:130]
’Company of jinn and mankind, did not Messengers come to you from among you, relating to you My signs and warning you of the encounter of this your day?’ They shall say, ’We bear witness against ourselves.’ They were deluded by the present life, and they bear witness against themselves that they were unbelievers.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #58 - February 08, 2011, 12:10 AM

@Alex

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on February 07, 2011, 11:51 PM
Who knows you better than your relatives? Did not uncle of the holy prophet - Father of Flame - realize, by the grace of God, that it was bullshit?

I guess they just figure I wouldn't be so interested in it unless I were planning to convert. They also don't know just how crazy some of the ideas in Islam (particularly the literalist variants) and the Qur'an are, so I guess Islam seems more credible to them, as they have less knowledge of it. Thus, the fear that someone like me could convert to it.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #59 - February 08, 2011, 12:23 AM

@ Zebedee

Quote
Well, as you well know, ''alameen' is the plural of ''alam,' and each 'alam' is a 'realm' or 'world' of existence: the 'world' of men and the 'world' of jinn. Seems to me that the verse means that Muhammad is not just a warner to the world of men alone, but to jinn also; a warner to all worlds, just as Allah is the 'Rabb' of all worlds. As for the angels, it goes without saying that they don't have warners, as they have no need, but the Qur'an makes it clear that both men and jinn are sent messengers:

True it is in a plural form, and realm (of men) is not all men. Only *all the realms* (of men) includes all men. It’s like saying he was sent to *the entire world*. See for example 3:20; 7:80. In fact, it can even simply mean *people*. See for example: Prophets:71; Poets:165; Hijr:70.

Quote
[6:130]
’Company of jinn and mankind, did not Messengers come to you from among you, relating to you My signs and warning you of the encounter of this your day?’ They shall say, ’We bear witness against ourselves.’ They were deluded by the present life, and they bear witness against themselves that they were unbelievers.

thanks for the verse!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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