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Theme Changer

 Topic: The expanding universe

 (Read 20721 times)
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  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #150 - February 16, 2011, 03:00 PM

    However, good Rationalizer, there is yet a way...

    Let's look at other verses which positively and quite indubitably prove  that these processes, according to the Qur'an, happened in the past.

    Surah 79:

    Verse 28

    رَفَعَ سَمْكَهَا فَسَوَّاهَا

    He raised its height and ordered it

    This even uses the exact same verb that occurs in 88:18, but in the active voice.

    Verse 30; the infamous 'egg-shaped' verse

    وَٱلأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا

    And the earth, after that, he spread it

    Again, past tense.

    And verse 32

    وَٱلْجِبَالَ أَرْسَاهَا

    And the mountains he fixed

    All past tense, corroborating the fact that these events, according to the author of the Qur'an, happened in the past, despite the wonky use of tense in some instances.

    Also,  Surah 41, of course.

    Verse 10:

    وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا رَوَاسِيَ مِن فَوْقِهَا وَبَارَكَ فِيهَا وَقَدَّرَ فِيهَآ أَقْوَاتَهَا فِيۤ أَرْبَعَةِ أَيَّامٍ

    And he made therein hills from (fawqiha, dunno what it means) and he blessed it and decreed for it its provision in four days...

    Again, it's clear, all this stuff is done in the past. Verse 12 uses the same past tense verb form for the construction of the heavens.

    It's quite clear that all this stuff happened in the past, but the other verses I provided you with use the present tense to describe these past events.
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #151 - February 16, 2011, 03:04 PM

    What about 18:18 - the occupants of the cave
    وَتَحۡسَبُہُمۡ أَيۡقَاظً۬ا وَهُمۡ رُقُودٌ۬‌ۚ وَنُقَلِّبُهُمۡ

    Does this actually say
    "You think they ARE awake, while they ARE asleep, and we ARE turning them?


    Sorry, couldn't tell ya. The vocabulary's a lot more complicated in that verse. But I'll have a look and see if I can figure it out.
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #152 - February 22, 2011, 11:38 AM

    @Debunker
    Did you manage to find an example?

    What about Zebedee's examples?  Are the words spread, raised, fixed in 88:18-20 all imperfect tense, and are the following in perfect tense?
    79:28 - Raised
    79:30 - Spread
    79:32 - Fixed

    Thanks.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #153 - February 23, 2011, 02:25 PM

    wa inna la moosi'oona EXACTLY means the following in English:

    and we certainly are expanding.

    moosi'oon, outside that sentence, means expanders.

    But to answer your question, moosi'oon is always a noun (male plural), inside and outside that sentence, but inside that sentence it is EXACTLY equivalent to the english translation I shown you.

    it's how we use the continuous present in Arabic, to refer to the future. (like it is in English)

    For example, in english you say:

    I'm leaving tomorrow. (continuous present form used to refer to the future)

    Je pars, demain. <-- french: the verb does not change.

    inni rahel ghadan <-- Arabic: rahel is a noun (male single) but used here to give the same effect as in English above.


    Hello again, sorry to drag things back to page 1 (i haven't been here in a while), but I wonder if this search for an example of the active participle refering to a past action is unnecessary (though still helpful no doubt). I wonder if debunker is correct in the above quote that it can't simply mean expanders in 51:47 (maybe I've misunderstood what he is saying)? Does anyone know if he is right in saying it doesn't just mean the doer of the verb as it does elsewhere but here must be taken literally as expanding (like how kaatibun can mean writer or writing http://www.answers.com/topic/participle#Arabic )? Many other translators are quite happy to translate it as "expanders" or words to that effect such as "makers of things ample" (http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/51/47/default.htm).

    If I search google for
    site:http://corpus.quran.com nominative masculine plural active participle

    I see examples of the same structure eg 44:12 "Lo! We are believers" (innā mu'minūna). A nominative masculine plural (form IV) active participle like in 51:47.

    or 9:100 wal-sābiqūna "and the forerunners" nominative masculine plural active participle

    In 2:236 the genitive (since it follows a preposition) of the same word (masculine plural (form IV) active participle) as in 51:47 refers to the wealthy.
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #154 - February 23, 2011, 02:34 PM

    The reason I want a comparison is that people can claim that it CAN mean "expanding" - so I feel I need to counter it with an example of how the Quran uses imperfect tense for past events.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #155 - February 23, 2011, 02:55 PM

    I guess the logic of your debunking could go something like

    They say it is a miracle since it means expanding (continuing action) like big bang theory
    However, the active participle can refer to a completed action (see these examples)
    [and it can alternatively mean the person(s) who does the verb (expanders)]
    Therefore no miracle is proved since there are at least 2 alternative ways to interpret 51:47 other than we are continually expanding

    The bit in square brackets is what you might be able to add to the reasoning (that's what my post was about). Is that right at all?

    btw, I loved your vid with the talking hands, feet etc.!
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #156 - February 23, 2011, 02:58 PM

    The argument would basically be that if there is a more simple explanation then it should be assumed.  If other places in the Quran talk about past events in an ongoing tense then it is more simple to explain this verse in the same way, it is a matter of art rather than a matter of miracle.

    and thanks Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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