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 Topic: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence

 (Read 19169 times)
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  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #60 - February 15, 2011, 12:16 PM

    Did you notice when during the assembly they were talking about the horrible Hindus and the crafty kaffirs, the guy used the same rhetoric as Mehdi Hassan - that they were people without any 'intellect' or intelligence.

    I'd like to see Mehdi write a blog about this, but I doubt he will.

    .
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #61 - February 15, 2011, 12:33 PM

    Just saw it - I have long said that these Dar-uloom schools that are styled on the Madrassas in Muslim countries should be closed down - no ifs and buts - I can't understand why they are tolerated.

    Of course I believe all faith schools should be closed - but these types are the worst of the worst!


    Its the Deobandi thing. Its true that there is a spectrum of interpretation on some issues by different Deobandi scholars. But the truth is that tha basics are agreed. It is an incredibly literalist, austere, puritanical, strict, insular and hostile school of Islam.

    Its important to understand the history and culture of Deoband. It started in the 19th Century and was part of movement amongst Indian Muslims that was provoked not only by British colonialism, but by the loss of Muslim power in India after the fall of the Mughal empire.

    (I'm reading a book at this moment that touches on all this - Tinderbox: The Past & Future of Pakistan by MJ Akbar)

    Deoband is the name of a small town in a northern province of India. The seminary was founded there and remains to this day, a strict, austere, harsh, literalist, insular inspiration of Maududi and the Taliban in an ocean of mainly Hindu India. To understand the worldview of Deoband you have to look at it in the context of where it originates.

    Deobandi Islam is neurotic with the 'theory of distance' to use MJ Akbar's phrase. There is a permanent anxiety about contamination by non Muslims that derives in many ways from its existence as a seminary in non Muslim India. This has also influenced Pakistani Islam greatly. Transpose that to the context of modern Britain and you get what you see here - a school of Islam obsessed with demonising others in order to maintain the 'distance' between Muslims and others. Hence the neurotic, never ending reminders of the Shaitan that is British society, the never ending derision of non Muslims and their culture, in order to breed fear and disgust in the students. Thus, a distance can be maintained, and Islam remains pure. This is the impulse of Deobandi Islam. You see it in their literalism and anxiety on dress, beards etc, which was also seen in the Darul Uloom school in the programme too.

    It really is quite simple. People try to put a gloss on it, to hope for nuance or tolerance or pluralism. But Deoband doesn't really provide that. It is an injection of intolerance and neurosis into the context of British cities, into the minds of the young. To be quite frank, it is deeply worrying and potentially disastrous for the balance of trust in our society for the future. Lets be honest, this kind of ideological virulence is absolute poison. Place it in the context of the milltowns of the north, and other cities, and things begin to look bleak. It is medieval theology in 21sth Century Britain. A recipe for discord and very bad atmospherics and hatreds.

    Here is an article about Deoband from New Humanist, not a bad introduction:

    http://newhumanist.org.uk/1622/allahs-ambassadors


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #62 - February 15, 2011, 12:47 PM

    (I'm reading a book at this moment that touches on all this - Tinderbox: The Past & Future of Pakistan by MJ Akbar)

    Deoband is the name of a small town in a northern province of India. The seminary was founded there and remains to this day, a strict, austere, harsh, literalist, insular inspiration of Maududi and the Taliban in an ocean of mainly Hindu India. To understand the worldview of Deoband you have to look at it in the context of where it originates.

    Deobandi Islam is neurotic with the 'theory of distance' to use MJ Akbar's phrase. There is a permanent anxiety about contamination by non Muslims that derives in many ways from its existence as a seminary in non Muslim India. This has also influenced Pakistani Islam greatly. Transpose that to the context of modern Britain and you get what you see here - a school of Islam obsessed with demonising others in order to maintain the 'distance' between Muslims and others. Hence the neurotic, never ending reminders of the Shaitan that is British society, the never ending derision of non Muslims and their culture, in order to breed fear and disgust in the students. Thus, a distance can be maintained, and Islam remains pure. This is the impulse of Deobandi Islam. You see it in their literalism and anxiety on dress, beards etc, which was also seen in the Darul Uloom school in the programme too.

    It really is quite simple. People try to put a gloss on it, to hope for nuance or tolerance or pluralism. But Deoband doesn't really provide that. It is an injection of intolerance and neurosis into the context of British cities, into the minds of the young. To be quite frank, it is deeply worrying and potentially disastrous for the balance of trust in our society for the future. Lets be honest, this kind of ideological virulence is absolute poison. Place it in the context of the milltowns of the north, and other cities, and things begin to look bleak. It is medieval theology in 21sth Century Britain. A recipe for discord and very bad atmospherics and hatreds.


    Spot on!  Is this guy an ex-muzzie?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #63 - February 15, 2011, 12:51 PM

    Our family are deobandi's, after my grandfather rejected Barelvi saints because of their hypocrisy. 

    Later his other son (my dads brother) became a wahhabi, probably because of its close affiliations to literalist deobandi tradition, even keeping a picture of Bin Laden on his bedroom wall in Pakistan.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #64 - February 15, 2011, 12:56 PM

    even keeping a picture of Bin Laden on his bedroom wall in Pakistan.


    Still, less creepy than David Hasselhoff's picture up there
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #65 - February 15, 2011, 12:58 PM

    CMB needs to ban the reading of the Quran then Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #66 - February 15, 2011, 01:31 PM

    Quote
    Here is an article about Deoband from New Humanist, not a bad introduction:

    http://newhumanist.org.uk/1622/allahs-ambassadors


    Pretty good, although this was a bit odd:

    Quote
    It was for me a chastening reminder of one message of Islam that seems to have been lost in the atrocities of history and those of recent weeks in Pakistan. It is the Koran’s message of peace, a message that European Islam needs to recover.


    Er, yeah, because orthodox Islam was all sunshine and lollipops before those Deobandi bad apples pissed in the well.  wacko
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #67 - February 15, 2011, 02:00 PM

    Stop trolling you cock


    Q-man, my last post was part of a civilized exchange between myself and serrated_colon. Do you have any opinions on the subject of this thread? If not, perhaps you have an Inverse Racist Idots For Islamic Supremacist Mega Mosques meeting to attend?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #68 - February 15, 2011, 02:15 PM

    What a dipshit.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #69 - February 15, 2011, 02:16 PM

    The MCB know full well what's going in mosques and madrassas but they're too busy looking for "islamophobia" and doing dawah rather than getting their house in order.  Every Muslim knows that beating is a common occurrence in the vast majority of Quranic classes.  All of the spokesmen at the MCB were smacked by their imams too back in the day.


    Inayyat Bunglawala and co would like to turn Britain into a sharia state.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #70 - February 15, 2011, 02:17 PM

    What a dipshit.


    Who?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #71 - February 15, 2011, 02:19 PM

    Spot on!  Is this guy an ex-muzzie?


    No, he's an Indian Muslim who believes in secularism. I'm halfway through the book. I'm most lloking forward to the chapter on Maududi. He says that if Jinnah is the father of Pakistan, then Maududi is the Godfather of Pakistan, and Maududi has superceded Jinnah as far as present day Pakistan is concerned.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #72 - February 15, 2011, 02:21 PM

    Spot on!  Is this guy an ex-muzzie?

     
    That guy is an hinduiszed or indianized Muslim., which is different from Islamized or arabized Muslim from Land of pure.  If subcontinent would have NOT divided I wonder the consequences of such undivided  Subcontinent., any opinions from center of subcontinent..??  

     http://www.mjakbar.org/tinderbox_side.jpg

    that is from his book at http://www.mjakbar.org/
    Quote
    The historian Romila Thapar offers an interesting Islamic explanation for the destruction of the temple.She suggests that it may have been linked to Mahmuds ambitions in the Arab Persian world,where Abbasid power was in ebb,and claimants to the caliphate were hovering over Baghdad.Thapar suggests a link between Somanath and the famous controversy over the three principal goddesses of pre-Islamic Arabia,Lat,Uzza and Manat,daughters of the supreme deity.Lats idol had a human shape,Uzzas origin was in a sacred tree,and Manat,goddess of destiny (also known as Ishtar) was manifest in a white stone.Her shrine was in Qudayd,near the sea.The pre-Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca was considered incomplete without a visit to Qudayd.

    The Prophet of Islam,Muhammad,challenged this heresy with the message of taw hid,or the One God,and was forced to emigrate by his own tribe,the Quraysh,who had turned the mosque at Kaaba into a place of idol-worship.In 630,the Prophet returned to Mecca and destroyed idols inside Kaaba,including those of Lat and Uzza.
    Quote
       It is said  devoted idol-worshipper reached Qudayd before the Muslims and escaped with Manats image on a trading ship heading to Gujarat,where it was placed in a temple.This temple to Manat came to be known as Su-Manat,and thence Somanath.Mahmud intended,in other words,to complete the objective of the Prophet and thereby raise his stature in the Muslim world,as part of his campaign to become caliph of the Muslim world


      that is a funny history from his book..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #73 - February 15, 2011, 02:31 PM

    Pretty good, although this was a bit odd:

    Er, yeah, because orthodox Islam was all sunshine and lollipops before those Deobandi bad apples pissed in the well.  


    Yeah I know, but that is really just the typical thing said more in hope than anything else in articles like this. Edna Fernandes hopes that there is a tolerant space at ease with pluralism inside Islam, and that Deoband represents in some way an aberration from that.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #74 - February 15, 2011, 05:37 PM

    BMSD Press release:

    PRESS RELEASE – 15th February 2011
    British Muslims for Secular Democracy (bmsd) are alarmed at the footage contained in last night’s Dispatches programme, “Lessons in Hate and Violence” on Channel 4.  The documentary exposed sectarian teachings and violence against children in certain madrassahs, as well as the inadequate regulation of such institutions.
    BMSD notes that British Muslims are caught in a quagmire between far-right extremism, and extremism that purports to have a religious basis.  During these testing times, mosques and madrassahs have an enormous responsibility to promote harmony.  This includes enjoining respect for non-Muslims, as well as Muslims who may vary in their levels of belief and practice.

    It is therefore highly distressing that certain madrassahs are able to teach a hardline version of Islam (in some cases, with impunity).  The Government must ensure that existing child protection legislation is extended to cover after-school institutions, and that the recommendations in good practice guides – such as Kirklees Council’s “Safe Children, Sound Learning: Guidance for Madrassahs” – are followed.

    Dr Shaaz Mahboob, Vice-Chair of British Muslims for Secular Democracy, said: “BMSD hopes that such occurrences are not the norm, but happen in only a minority of cases.  Further research, with the co-operation of mosques and madrassahs, should unveil the true picture.  BMSD would like to work with Islamic institutions to promote harmony, civic responsibilities and democratic norms.”

    [End]

    Notes to the editors: 
    bmsd is made up of a group of Muslim democrats of diverse ethnic and social backgrounds, who support a clear separation between religion and the State. 
    bmsd’s mission statement:   “To promote civic engagement, social inclusion, responsible citizenship and good governance particularly within constituent Muslim communities of Britain; in order to build an understanding of the shared values between all citizens to enable them to live in an inclusive, pluralist, secular and confident Britain.”   
    bmsd claims no mandate or false representative status. Our primary concern is democratic engagement not detailed theological analysis or debate. The level and depth of commitment to the doctrinal core and orthodoxy of the faith varies among Muslims as much as it does in members of other faith groups. bmsd founders wish to create a platform for alternative, diverse Muslim views, essential for a progressive, multi-layered, democratic identity that is not in conflict with itself or fellow citizens. 
    For details please visit http://www.bmsd.org.uk 
    For any further queries, please contact:  Dr Shaaz Mahboob on shaaz@bmsd.org.uk or 07961365751 or Tehmina Kazi on 0207 242 8691.
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #75 - February 15, 2011, 06:42 PM

    You don't live in a Muslim majority country then?


    i thought it would have been made obvious by now that i live in the UK :/
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #76 - February 16, 2011, 12:29 AM

    watched it , that bastard wouldn't stop hitting those kids !!!! what the fuck is wrong with him !!!! he definitely has a problem

    "its fashionable to be an ex Muslim these days"
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #77 - February 16, 2011, 03:38 AM

    watched it , that bastard wouldn't stop hitting those kids !!!! what the fuck is wrong with him !!!! he definitely has a problem

    Hmm.. ChinaDoll  is very upset., I wonder what she would have done if she was in that school..

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQmZfm_hXuo

    See the difference between a bearded baboon teaching children and the other clean shaved guy teaching school (at 12.2 minutes in the  tube above)in that Oxford Square.

    So I again say,  the problem in Islam is NOT Quran or hadith or whatever happened in the history but it is brainless Beard.. beard.. beard.. preaching bullshit

    "Catch them & Clean Shave The rascals ..Mock Them & Move On"...

    And the rubbish like this from Hadith should be burned..

    Quote
    Book 2, Number 0494:  Narrated As-Saburah:

        The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Command a boy to pray when he reaches the age of seven years. When he becomes ten years old, then beat him for prayer.


    Quote
    Book 2, Number 0495: Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:

        The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Command your children to pray when they become seven years old, and beat them for it (prayer) when they become ten years old; and arrange their beds (to sleep) separately.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #78 - February 16, 2011, 04:50 AM

    BMSD Press release:

    PRESS RELEASE – 15th February 2011
    British Muslims for Secular Democracy (bmsd) are alarmed at the footage contained in last night’s Dispatches programme, “Lessons in Hate and Violence” on Channel 4.  The documentary exposed sectarian teachings and violence against children in certain madrassahs, as well as the inadequate regulation of such institutions.
    BMSD notes that British Muslims are caught in a quagmire between far-right extremism, and extremism that purports to have a religious basis.  During these testing times, mosques and madrassahs have an enormous responsibility to promote harmony.  This includes enjoining respect for non-Muslims, as well as Muslims who may vary in their levels of belief and practice.

    It is therefore highly distressing that certain madrassahs are able to teach a hardline version of Islam (in some cases, with impunity).  The Government must ensure that existing child protection legislation is extended to cover after-school institutions, and that the recommendations in good practice guides – such as Kirklees Council’s “Safe Children, Sound Learning: Guidance for Madrassahs” – are followed.

    Dr Shaaz Mahboob, Vice-Chair of British Muslims for Secular Democracy, said: “BMSD hopes that such occurrences are not the norm, but happen in only a minority of cases.  Further research, with the co-operation of mosques and madrassahs, should unveil the true picture.  BMSD would like to work with Islamic institutions to promote harmony, civic responsibilities and democratic norms.”

    [End]

    Notes to the editors: 
    bmsd is made up of a group of Muslim democrats of diverse ethnic and social backgrounds, who support a clear separation between religion and the State. 
    bmsd’s mission statement:   “To promote civic engagement, social inclusion, responsible citizenship and good governance particularly within constituent Muslim communities of Britain; in order to build an understanding of the shared values between all citizens to enable them to live in an inclusive, pluralist, secular and confident Britain.”   
    bmsd claims no mandate or false representative status. Our primary concern is democratic engagement not detailed theological analysis or debate. The level and depth of commitment to the doctrinal core and orthodoxy of the faith varies among Muslims as much as it does in members of other faith groups. bmsd founders wish to create a platform for alternative, diverse Muslim views, essential for a progressive, multi-layered, democratic identity that is not in conflict with itself or fellow citizens. 
    For details please visit http://www.bmsd.org.uk 
    For any further queries, please contact:  Dr Shaaz Mahboob on shaaz@bmsd.org.uk or 07961365751 or Tehmina Kazi on 0207 242 8691.


    the very fact that they're 'shocked' and 'horrified' at this documentary is a testament to how detached muslims who are for secular democracy are from those who aren't. i watched this documentary and saw nothing i haven't seen before, i almost had at times myself thinking "wtf why are they so shocked at this, this is just what goes on" because this is a completely widespread phenomenom, not one that is a fringe element of any sort. i've seen this shit at every madrassa i ever went to, not one single one was an exemption to this rule.

    though the other one they showed - the more 'modern' one was interesting. i watched it and was like 'is this guy for real or is this just some token muslim critic', as i've never seen any sort of faith school run like that ever. it seemed alien to me, but if he's for real then power to him. if the government are stupid enough not to outright ban faith schools, then we should at least crack down on this bullshit that goes on in madrassas who think their mosques are an embassy of dar-al-islam.
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #79 - February 16, 2011, 04:58 AM

    I think the shocked and horrified is more for effect that actual emotion.  Like you said this isn't anything that isn't widely known.  Hopefully this inspires a large scrutiny of faith based schools ( the Deobundis for sure have this shit down to a tee but it can be found in milder forms in a lot of faith based schools).  Nothing like sunlight to disinfect and bring to light this absolute bullshit. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #80 - February 16, 2011, 09:50 PM

    re. OP, arrests have been made  http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/feb/14/mosque-schools-arrest-channel-4

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #81 - February 16, 2011, 10:34 PM

    So it looks like after decades of corporal punishment in mosques, this practise might finally be put to an end thanks to the British media and the British authorities.  This is all happening dispute Islam and dispite the efforts of Muslims.

    Just goes to show that if you leave Muslims to their own vices then they will never progress.

    .
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #82 - February 16, 2011, 10:37 PM

    So it looks like after decades of corporal punishment in mosques, this practise might finally be put to an end thanks to the British media and the British authorities.


    And a CEMB member Wink - Not me I hasten to add - but they wish to remain anonymous.
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #83 - February 16, 2011, 10:41 PM

    I'm intrigued.  Can you tell us what this COEM member did (without disclosing their identity?)

    .
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #84 - February 16, 2011, 10:48 PM

    I'm intrigued.  Can you tell us what this COEM did (without disclosing their identity?)


    Sorry can't say any more - I'm not sure I should have said what I have.
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #85 - February 16, 2011, 10:49 PM

    Abu Dawud, Book 2, Number 0494
    Narrated As-Saburah:

    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Command a boy to pray when he reaches the age of seven years. When he becomes ten years old, then beat him for prayer.


    Abu Dawud, Book 2, Number 0495
    Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:

    The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Command your children to pray when they become seven years old, and beat them for it (prayer) when they become ten years old; and arrange their beds (to sleep) separately.


     Roll Eyes

    .
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #86 - February 16, 2011, 10:52 PM

    Sorry can't say any more - I'm not sure I should have said what I have.

    Ok cool.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna ring the police to report at least 3 Imams who used to teach at my mosque and beat us...  grin12

    .
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #87 - February 16, 2011, 10:57 PM

    Heres a thread I made a while ago discussing beating in mosques... http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6933.0

    .
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #88 - February 16, 2011, 11:03 PM

    Ok cool.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna ring the police to report at least 3 Imams who used to teach at my mosque and beat us...  grin12



    lol... good!
  • Re: Dispatches: Lessons in Hate & Violence
     Reply #89 - February 16, 2011, 11:13 PM

    So it looks like after decades of corporal punishment in mosques, this practise might finally be put to an end thanks to the British media and the British authorities.  This is all happening dispute Islam and dispite the efforts of Muslims.

    Just goes to show that if you leave Muslims to their own vices then they will never progress.

    Yeah, good point - I think this is a good argument for why more government interference is required

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
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