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 Topic: How violent is the Quran, really?

 (Read 3155 times)
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  • How violent is the Quran, really?
     OP - February 10, 2011, 12:20 PM

    Before I read the Quran I saw the usual "Kill the Kuffs wherever you find them" type verses quoted all over the place.  Now that I look back I must say that I cannot actually recall reading any verses which tell people to go out and wage war or kill others unless in self defence.

    You guys are more familiar with verses than I am.  Am I just forgetting some stuff, or is the Quran really not as bad for instructing believers to kill as people would have you believe?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #1 - February 10, 2011, 01:00 PM

    Quote
    002.190: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

    002.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

    002.192: But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    002.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

    002.194: The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

    002.195: And spend in the way of Allah and cast not yourselves to perdition with your own hands, and do good (to others); surely Allah loves the doers of good.

    002.216: Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.

    002.221: And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

    003.056: Then as to those who disbelieve, I will chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers.  

    003.151: We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

    004.074: Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

    004.075: And what reason have you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say: Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper.

    004.076: Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.

    004.089: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

    004.095: The holders back from among the believers, not having any injury, and those who strive hard in Allah's way with their property and their persons are not equal; Allah has made the strivers with their property and their persons to excel the holders back a (high) degree, and to each (class) Allah has promised good; and Allah shall grant to the strivers above the holders back a mighty reward:

    004.115: And whoever acts hostilely to the Messenger after that guidance has become manifest to him, and follows other than the way of the believers, We will turn him to that to which he has (himself) turned and make him enter hell; and it is an evil resort.

    004.136: O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

    004.137: Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

    004.138: Announce to the hypocrites that they shall have a painful chastisement:

    004.139: Those who take the unbelievers for guardians rather than believers. Do they seek honor from them? Then surely all honor is for Allah.
     

    there are plenty of such verses that makes a believer a member of a cult where cult leader has the potential to exploit his follower..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #2 - February 10, 2011, 01:04 PM

    I didn't ask how violent it could be made out to be, I asked how violent it REALLY is.  E.g. if I can take one of those verses and see that the verse before says "If a gang of men ambush you in the night intent on killing you...." then it means the verse is not really inciting violence.

    I'm after verses which incite violence, I don't recall reading any.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #3 - February 10, 2011, 01:15 PM

    Quote
    "If a gang of men ambush you in the night intent on killing you...." then it means the verse is not really inciting violence."

    that never happened in early Islam to start with. Allah/god need not reveal such things to human beings., that is common sense TheRationalizer


    the bottom line in Islam is,   if you don' believe in Allah and his messenger and his actions/his words  and don't pay him/his group taxes that are prescribed by him and do not follow his rules and the rules of his followers after his death, then you are against Allah and his messenger.  So as a believer I have the right to eliminate you from the face of the planet . If you die you go and burn in hell and if i die i get wide eyed houries and honey rivers in the heavens.  


    choose right now which way you would like to go TheRationalizer.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #4 - February 10, 2011, 01:34 PM

    Quote
    that never happened in early Islam to start with. Allah/god need not reveal such things to human beings., that is common sense TheRationalizer


    Unfortunately, looks like,Allah! didn't think much about his follower's intelligence!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #5 - February 10, 2011, 02:09 PM

    I'm after evidence, not conclusions Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #6 - February 10, 2011, 02:23 PM

    I'm after evidence, not conclusions Smiley

    evidence is  in the Islamic History  http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15311  and in the  actions of those who consider Quran is word of Allah and Prophet of Islam is the model Muslim that  you must follow it and him to word by word.,

    Any one who questions that is infidel hence I have the right to loot and take the booty from them..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #7 - February 10, 2011, 02:42 PM

    I'm after evidence, not conclusions Smiley


    there is one: fight Jews/Christians until they pay Jizyah.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #8 - February 10, 2011, 02:52 PM

    there is one: fight Jews/Christians until they pay Jizyah.


    Okay, that's better.  I don't see any conditions surrounding this verse.  So without the Quran itself giving a reason not to go out killing Jews and Christians I looked at Ibn Kathir and got the impression that this was a call to arms for a specific battle against the Romans rather than a call for Muslims to fight Christians/Jews in general - what do you think?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #9 - February 10, 2011, 02:56 PM

    this was a call to arms for a specific battle against the Romans rather than a call for Muslims to fight Christians/Jews in general - what do you think?

    Where and when did Muslims fight Romans during Prophet Muhammad's time??

    No that battle call by Prophet of Islam was against Jews/Christians/Pagans living in the sands of arabia  in around Mecca & Madina
    http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/30.htm

    This was because they were questioning Caravan looting of Muhammad and his followers., And all this happened after the death of His first wife Khadija.   Total Islam  during the Prophet's  of time was 23 years., First 10 years it was nothing but singing songs along with few vagabonds   and spending Khadija's money ., She died and Prophet took for raiding caravans to support his followers and his religion., That is where problems started..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #10 - February 10, 2011, 03:01 PM

    Where and when did Muslims fight Romans during Prophet Muhammad's time??


    Just because there was a call to arms doesn't mean a battle occurred.  In fact I found the story quite amusing...

    Quote
    This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight
    the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated,
    the people entered Allah's religion in large numbers, and
    the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims'
    control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the
    People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the
    ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight
    the Romans and called the people to  Jihad announcing
    his intent and destination.
    The Messenger sent his intent to various Arab areas
    around Al-Madinah to gather forces, and he collected an
    army of thirty thousand. Some people from Al-Madinah
    and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind,
    for that year was a year of drought and intense heat.
    The Messenger of Allah marched, heading towards AshSham
    to fight the Romans until he reached Tabuk, where
    he set camp for about twenty days next to its water
    resources. He then prayed to Allah for a decision and
    went back to Al-Madinah because it was a hard year and
    the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing.



    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #11 - February 10, 2011, 03:04 PM

    Quote
    Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the
    People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the
    ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight  50
    the Romans
    and called the people to  Jihad announcing
    his intent and destination.

    where did you get that from??  give me the link TheRationalizer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romans_in_Arabia

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #12 - February 10, 2011, 03:07 PM

    http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir/PDF/009%20Tawbah.pdf

    Bottom of page 49.  The "50" in the quoted text was the next page number, I hadn't spotted that so will remove it from my post.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #13 - February 10, 2011, 03:09 PM

    PS: I vaguely remember reading this in Sirat al Rasuwl too.  People were dropping back due to the heat and then pissing off.  They waited at Tabuk for a while and then obviously realised they were going to get their assess kicked so they went home.

    I think this is related to some verse about the fires of hell being hotter than the desert sun or something too, but I'd have to check.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #14 - February 10, 2011, 03:12 PM


    The link you gave comes out out of center of   Lahore.. the land of pure .,

    for them Every Christian is Roman

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #15 - February 10, 2011, 03:13 PM

    You'll need to elaborate, I have no idea what you are talking about Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #16 - February 10, 2011, 03:16 PM

    But then this would at best excuse "fight THOSE Christians (imaginary finger pointing at the Romans)" - it would not explain the "Jews" part.

    Debunker, what do you make of it?  Do you think the Quran tells Muslims to fight Jews and Christians until they submit?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #17 - February 10, 2011, 03:18 PM

    You'll need to elaborate, I have no idea what you are talking about Smiley

    Well for Pakistani Islamic intellectuals., Every Christian in the world has the origins in  Roman  Empire

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #18 - February 10, 2011, 03:22 PM

    But then this would at best excuse "fight THOSE Christians (imaginary finger pointing at the Romans)" - it would not explain the "Jews" part.....

    Forget Tafsir,   where Did you find word "Roman" in Quran..

    as far as I know there is one vague verse that says

    Quote
    030.002: The Romans are vanquished,


    and Quran is full of vague verses..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #19 - February 10, 2011, 03:30 PM

    Okay, that's better.  I don't see any conditions surrounding this verse.  So without the Quran itself giving a reason not to go out killing Jews and Christians I looked at Ibn Kathir and got the impression that this was a call to arms for a specific battle against the Romans rather than a call for Muslims to fight Christians/Jews in general - what do you think?


    what I said was: reading the Quran, without external influences (other people's views, Hadith, Tafsir), the verse about making Jews/Christians pay taxes by force, is the only violently offensive one.

    Are there circumstances justifying this? The Quran doesn't clarify, but Hadith has it that Northern Arab Christians were planning to attack Muslims to crush what seemed like a Christian heresy gaining momentum and populariy: Isalm.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #20 - February 10, 2011, 03:42 PM

    Forget Tafsir,   where Did you find word "Roman" in Quran..


    I don't understand why you are asking me to substantiate a claim I didn't make.  You are confusing me Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #21 - February 10, 2011, 04:57 PM

    I don't understand why you are asking me to substantiate a claim I didn't make.  You are confusing me Smiley

    Oops you are right I am entering in to the zone of confusion here TheRationalizer .,    It started from the link  from land of Pure that you gave with these words in it
    Quote
    Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the
    People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the
    ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight  50
    the Romans
    and called the people to  Jihad announcing
    his intent and destination.

      Along with that I was under the impression that  you are going through Tafsir after thoroughly reading Quran and was assuming that there may be a verse in Quran that you may have read where Prophet's of Islam fought Romans...  And my assumption was wrong.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #22 - February 10, 2011, 04:59 PM

    Ah, the "50" looked like a verse number.  I understand now Smiley


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #23 - February 10, 2011, 05:24 PM

    Ah, the "50" looked like a verse number.  I understand now Smiley



    I see Now I understand where you are looking in that PDF file at  http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir/PDF/009%20Tawbah.pdf

    The verses we are talking in that page 49/50 of that pdf file comes from  AL-TAWBA of Quarn that is Chapter-9  that is a right one for you to read at http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html 

    Let me put some verses from it here
    Quote
    009.001: (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

    009.002: So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

    009.003: And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

    009.004 : Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

    009.005: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    009.006: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

      read more at that link. Pick it up from Shakir's translation dear TheRationalizer...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #24 - February 10, 2011, 05:29 PM

    It was 9:29 we were looking at.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #25 - February 10, 2011, 05:38 PM

    It was 9:29 we were looking at.

    Oh ..O.K., but whole Chapter is bullshit and war mongering., anyways in my view, it is better to read few verses above and below of the one we are interested in to make any sense out of it.   i am interested in wars Prophet of Islam carried out to propagate his religion during his life time

    well let us read that 9:29..

    Quote
    009.025: Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.

    009.026: Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.

    009.027: Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    009.028: O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

    009.029: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

    009.030: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #26 - February 10, 2011, 05:40 PM

    http://www.islamicstudies.info/?topic=quran

    You could check out the tafsirs on this site (Dawatul Qur'an, Tafheem al-Qur'an, Ma'ariful Qur'an). They all say pretty much the same thing on 9:29; that it's an injunction to engage in offensive warfare, although they don't consider it to be 'offensive' as in 'wrong.' Here's a summary from Ma'ariful:

    As for the injunction of Jihad against the People of the Book given in verse 29, it is really not particular to the People of the Book. The fact is that this very injunction applies to all disbelieving groups -- because, the reasons for the injunction to fight mentioned next are common to all disbelievers. If so, the injunction has to be common too.

    This is how it's traditionally interpreted, although it's not the only possible interpretation, but it does seem like a legitimate one, especially given that the verse mentions those who 'follow not the religion of Truth.'
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #27 - February 10, 2011, 05:46 PM

    @debunker

    Quote
    what I said was: reading the Quran, without external influences (other people's views, Hadith, Tafsir), the verse about making Jews/Christians pay taxes by force, is the only violently offensive one.


    I guess it's an obviously offensive one, although I think you could probably look at other verses as enjoining the same thing; e.g., 2:193, 8:39, etc. I'm pretty sure I remember reading in Tafsir al-Qurtubi that 2:193 enjoined offensive warfare because of the words 'and religion is all for Allah.'
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #28 - February 13, 2011, 06:29 AM

    Do not forget the entire Chapter 9 of Quran guys! It is the most violent chapter, and it contains many intolerant and general statements (and false accusations) directed at others, their beliefs and habits. It is truly the best gem.

    And not to mention all the verses that forbid making friends with Christians, Jews, Pagans and unbelievers in general. Do not make me quote them all.

    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: How violent is the Quran, really?
     Reply #29 - February 13, 2011, 08:22 AM

    And not to mention all the verses that forbid making friends with Christians, Jews, Pagans and unbelievers in general. Do not make me quote them all.


    I thought it meant "protectors" not friends?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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