Re: Mehdi Hassan ... do you approve of him?
Reply #68 - June 19, 2011, 11:05 PM
Rather than create another thread I thought I'd bump this one. Mehdi Hasan and Johann Hari had a little Twitter exchange today about God and as a result a public debate between the two might ensue. Thought you might like to read it...
johannhari101 Johann Hari
Everyone 'disrespects' the religious claims of somebody & rightly so. Atheists disrespect the whole phenomenon of belief without evidence
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...it's called faith for a reason :-)
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 anyways, there's plenty of evidence for God offered by believers (inc scientists). U choose to reject it. That's ur choice
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan What is this supposed evidence for God? Where is it? (Liking your book about Ed, btw)
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan Your last 2 tweets are contradictory. the first was correct - faith is belief in the absence of evidence.
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 forgive me, but if u r asking me to 'prove' God's existence in twitter in 140 characters I'll have to pass :-)
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 but happy to discuss it elsewhere? Wanna do a public debate? :-)
johannhari101 Johann Hari
If you "hate intolerance", your argument isn't with me, it's with the Bible, Koran and Torah, which all say I should be killed
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 btw glad you like the ed book. It's out tomorrow and is about much more than 'brothers at war' (!)
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan Yes, but your initial Tweet was much more accurate. You choose to believe in absence of evidence. That's honest.
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan Point me towards a book that contains the proof of God's existence.
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 no, initial tweet was just a debating point! As a Muslim, it is incumbent upon me to have rational reasons for faith in God.
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 I said plenty of evidence. Didn't say proof.
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan It is incumbent on you as a human being to find evidence for your claims. You won't find them for Islam (or any religion)
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 agreed. And I have.
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan What's the difference between evidence and proof? (Genuine question)
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 btw the idea that some of world's greatest scientists, thinkers, philosophers, leaders were all irrational is just silly...
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan That's called "argument from authority" and it never works. It's what they said to Galileo to "rebut" him
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan They weren't "just" irrational. But where they made claims that were based on fantasy not evidence, they were irrational
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan What was the difference between proof and evidence, by the way? (Genuine question)
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 u have misunderstood me. I didn't say I believe in god coz they do. I said it's absurd to think they had blind faith in god
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan "It's absurd, Mr Galilleo, to say all these great thinkers & philosopher were irrational in believing the world was flat"
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 my basic understanding is that evidence suggests something might be true; proof removes all doubt and uncertainty
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 but u can disprove flat earth. U can't disprove god. Or have u johann?
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan So point me towards any text which you believe has "proof" of God's existence
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan You can certainly disprove many of the factual claims made in Bible & Koran on which God is premised - creation story etc
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 just to clarify: u believe it isnt just wrong but irrational (mad?) to believe that the universe had a first cause/creator?
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan No religion takes the word 'God' to mean simply an unknowable first cause for the universe.
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan They assert He is a being who intervenes in history, watches over us, etc
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan So we can debate deism, but there virtually no deists anywhere, & it's v different to the religion you are defending
carlmaxim Carl Maxim (ReTweet by johannhari101)
Great. @johannhari101 and @ns_mehdihasan are debating the existence of God on Twitter. This should finally get it sorted.
mattzarb Matt Zarb-Cousin (ReTweet by johannhari101)
@johannhari101 @ns_mehdihasan it's one thing to say the universe had a first cause, but a helluva jump to say that the first cause was God.
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 as I said, I am not debating here. I am tweeting. As I said, happy to debate u.Go on. New statesman and Indy can co-host. :-)
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan I must pick up my nephew now but this was fun. Let's continue later. Do send a link to the book with "proof" of God in it...
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 fine but u didn't answer my question? Is it 'irrational' to believe that or not?
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan Yes very happy to debate! DM me x
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 will do. Cheers.
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan We don't know the first cause of the universe. It is not irrational to call that unknown first cause "bob" or "jim" or "god"
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan ...but it is highly irrational to claim that unknown first causes watches over you & intervenes in human history
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan ...and that the unknown first cause wants you to eat particular meats and avoid particular sexual practices
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 I never said the word 'proof' and never said a single book. You must pay attention... C ya!
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan And with that, a ten year old beckons! x
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan You can name ten books if you like! x
ns_mehdihasan Mehdi Hasan
@johannhari101 when u name ten that disprove God, I will.... :-) enjoy the weekend.
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan It's a basic principle of logical argument that you can't prove a negative
johannhari101 Johann Hari
@ns_mehdihasan If I say an invisible teapot is circling Mars, the onus is on me to prove it, not you to disprove it
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