Arabic vaginas

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #30 - February 15, 2011, 01:37 PM

But is there something about the Arabic language where fiyhi means that this MUST be an object which has already been identified?

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #31 - February 15, 2011, 01:38 PM

I pointed out that 21:91 says the NUH was breathed into Miriam, so how can it have been breathed into Jesus?

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #32 - February 15, 2011, 01:39 PM

Vagina is a boring topic..

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #33 - February 15, 2011, 01:44 PM

Only if you're gay
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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #34 - February 15, 2011, 01:47 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 01:37 PM
But is there something about the Arabic language where fiyhi means that this MUST be an object which has already been identified?

I think it is just like in the English language whereby if you are going to use the word "it" in a sentence, you should have mentioned the noun in some way beforehand, so your audience knows what you are referring to.

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 01:38 PM
I pointed out that 21:91 says the NUH was breathed into Miriam, so how can it have been breathed into Jesus?

Good point. That's why Hassan's interpretation/suspicion (that there is an error in the Quran) is plausible.

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #35 - February 15, 2011, 01:49 PM

They BOTH had Allah's NUH

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #36 - February 15, 2011, 01:50 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 01:38 PM
I pointed out that 21:91 says the NUH was breathed into Miriam, so how can it have been breathed into Jesus?

I hope you didn't say it like that, 'ruh' is the spirit, Nuh is the prophet Noah.

But that verse is interesting. It has pretty much the exact same wording except it says 'feeha' and not 'feehi.' This seems to indicate that it's a grammatical mistake, I should wager, and not indicative of the meaning 'breathed into him.'

وَٱلَّتِيۤ أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَ

ٱلَّتِيۤ أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِنَ
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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #37 - February 15, 2011, 01:52 PM

heh, I did Poor NUH

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #38 - February 15, 2011, 01:52 PM

If we wanted to say "fiyhi" for an unnamed make person in English we would say "In him". Would it still be fiyhi in Arabic?

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #39 - February 15, 2011, 01:56 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 01:52 PM
heh, I did Poor NUH

lol
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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #40 - February 15, 2011, 02:01 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 01:52 PM
If we wanted to say "fiyhi" for an unnamed make person in English we would say "In him". Would it still be fiyhi in Arabic?

That's right. In english, objects are all 'it', whereas humans are 'him' or 'her'. In arabic everything (humans included) is either masculine or feminine. AFAIK

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #41 - February 15, 2011, 02:04 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 01:52 PM
If we wanted to say "fiyhi" for an unnamed make person in English we would say "In him". Would it still be fiyhi in Arabic?

Well, I guess you can probably find instances of weird use of pronouns in the Qur'an, e.g...

Q. 2:72

فَقُلْنَا ٱضْرِبُوهُ بِبَعْضِهَا

We said: Hit him with a bit of it...

Neither this verse nor the preceding one mentions the man who is to be hit, there is only mention of a 'nafs,' a self, in which case the pronoun should be 'ha,' (and not 'hu') as in Q. 4:1, 'khalaqa minha zawjaha.'

But then, in the verse you're talking about, there is no mention of anyone aside from Maryam, and the preceding verses talk about something else entirely, so I don't really know how you could claim that this pronoun is referring to another person. More likely, as is indicated by the fact that the aforementioned verses are all but identical in wording, this use of the masculine is simply a grammatical mistake; a literary anomaly that Allah's spell-check missed.
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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #42 - February 15, 2011, 02:10 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 01:20 PM
Now he is claiming that fiyhi means Jesus.

"and Mary daughter of Imran who guarded her distance (from Gabriel), so we breathed into him(Jesus) from our spirit"

Can fiyhi possibly reference something that has not been named such as Jesus?

Extremely weak claim (and of course bullshit) but tell him OK. we'll stick it under the chapter: "Weakness in the language of the Qur'an"
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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #43 - February 15, 2011, 02:13 PM

This is my counter argument:
Quote
The Quran says:
21:91 Says that RUH was breathed into Miriam
66:12 Says Miriam guarded her FARJ and RUH was breathed into "it (masculine)"

So if I am correct the jist of your argument is this:
It = does not mean Miriam's FARJ which is named 2 words before hand, but means "Jesus" which is last named 5 chapters earlier?

I'm sorry, but I can see why the famous translators and commentators disagree.

You are essentially claiming the Quran is vague and could have been MUCH clearer.

I can see the validity of his claim, but I find it at best highly unlikely, and at worst I find it to be an example of yet another place where the Quran has not been "made clear" and could be improved significantly.

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #44 - February 15, 2011, 02:15 PM

This isn't ultimately about me winning an argument on youtube with a Muslim, it's about having a good reason to learn something I didn't know before.

I've enjoyed this short adventure, thank you all once again for your help, it was most enjoyable. I shall resist the temptation to make a joke linking enjoyment and vaginas

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #45 - February 15, 2011, 02:22 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 01:52 PM
If we wanted to say "fiyhi" for an unnamed make person in English we would say "In him". Would it still be fiyhi in Arabic?

Yes but you really need to make it clear what the pronoun is referring to first. Not only that but are we supposed to believe that not only does the sentence suddenly in mid-way refer to a person by his pronoun when he has not been mentioned but then suddenly switches back again to talking about Maryam.

وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهِ مِنْ رُوحِنَا وَصَدَّقَتْ بِكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّهَا وَكُتُبِهِ وَكَانَتْ مِنَ الْقَانِتِينَ

"And Maryam bint Imran who gaurded her farj so we blew into him (Jesus) of our Ruh and she (Maryam obviously as it's feminine) was truthful to the words of her Lord and his books and was of the pious"

Like I say if this guy wants to claim this then please let him know we have made a new chapter in the Linguistic excellence of the Qur'an called "Fucking Awful Sentences!"
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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #46 - February 15, 2011, 02:30 PM

Om nom nom nom.

That's as constructive as I can get in this thread.

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #47 - February 15, 2011, 02:38 PM

I practically quoted you verbatim

@tudungsenduk
Yes but you really need to make it clear what the pronoun is referring to first. Not only that but are we supposed to believe that not only does the sentence suddenly in mid-way refer to a person by his pronoun when he has not been mentioned for 5 chapters but then suddenly switches back again to talking about Maryam.

If that is the case then you need to accept that this verse is VERY poorly written - a concession I did not expect you to make.

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #48 - February 15, 2011, 02:39 PM

It's scribal error - I'm pretty much convinced of this.
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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #49 - February 15, 2011, 02:40 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 15, 2011, 02:39 PM
It's scribal error - I'm pretty much convinced of this.

It does look like it, but what about the stories about Gabriel coming to Maryam and blowing up her vagina?

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #50 - February 15, 2011, 02:44 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 02:40 PM
It does look like it, but what about the stories about Gabriel coming to Maryam and blowing up her vagina?

These are in hadith or tafseer? If the latter then it's def bullshit to make the verse make sense - and I would suspect the same is true if it is hadith also.

Have you got the narrations? Where are they from?
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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #51 - February 15, 2011, 02:46 PM

All you needed to show this Tudungsenduk fella that "feehi" is not femenine, case closed.

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #52 - February 15, 2011, 02:53 PM

@Moe, his argument is that "into it (male)" means "into Jesus whom she was bearing."

@Hassan, no it seems that Ibn Kathir states this without quoting any relevant hadith so I remembered it incorrectly. Yes, it seems like an excuse.

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #53 - February 15, 2011, 02:56 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 02:53 PM
@Hassan, no it seems that Ibn Kathir states this without quoting any relevant hadith so I remembered it incorrectly. Yes, it seems like an excuse.

Don't tell Debunker you actually take any notice of Ibn Katheer
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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #54 - February 15, 2011, 02:59 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 15, 2011, 02:56 PM
Don't tell Debunker you actually take any notice of Ibn Katheer

He already knows

I clearly don't believe what Kathir says or my face would be on the floor and my ass facing west. I merely look at it in order to see if he is able to present any information that counters my argument, such as hadiths etc. I tend not to use him as an argument from authority or anything - except in cases like this where I point out that 99% of the translators I found translate this in the same way (it was Maryam breathed into) and therefore the Quran is at best not a book made clear

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Re: Arabic vaginas
Reply #55 - February 15, 2011, 04:37 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 15, 2011, 02:59 PM
He already knows

I clearly don't believe what Kathir says or my face would be on the floor and my ass facing west. I merely look at it in order to see if he is able to present any information that counters my argument, such as hadiths etc. I tend not to use him as an argument from authority or anything - except in cases like this where I point out that 99% of the translators I found translate this in the same way (it was Maryam breathed into) and therefore the Quran is at best not a book made clear

Yes, of course, I was just pulling your leg.
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