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 Topic: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings

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  • British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     OP - February 20, 2011, 04:16 PM

    Not sure if this has been posted yet.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12486003




    British gay Muslims are joining the global fight for equality and seeking gay Islamic marriage. The BBC's 5 live Investigates speaks to one couple about their 'nikah' - a Muslim matrimonial contract - and asks how they balance their sexuality with the Islamic faith.

    "We met about three years ago, at an iftar - a breaking of fast during Ramadan.

    "I think a lot of Muslims find that time of year very spiritual and very enlightening, and so I think that's why our relationship developed, because we spoke about our faith."

    "Eventually we went on a date."

    Asra recalls the first time she met her partner, Sarah, three years ago. The gay couple, who are also Muslim, are one of a growing number of gay, British Muslims who have cemented their relationship with marriage - Islamic marriage.

    Asra fondly remembers the moment Sarah proposed to her.

    "After the first date, which was about an hour, Sarah casually asked me to marry her."

    Sarah interjects.

    "I think it was more like four hours, after dinner, coffee and walking. I didn't really plan it, but it just really seemed like the way it was between us, I should try and keep it as pure as possible.

    "That may sound strange being lesbians, but it felt like we should do it the most honourable way we could."

    The Muslim way
     
    Asra and Sarah decided upon a 'nikah' - a Muslim matrimonial contract. Whilst nikahs have traditionally been the reserve of heterosexual Muslims, Asra and Sarah were aware that other gay Muslims had followed this route and the couple decided to investigate further.

    Continue reading the main story

    Start Quote
    It's still very difficult for me to tell my family about my life being a lesbian. They know I am a believer, they know I am religious, but going as far as saying I am a lesbian is quite hard”
    End Quote
    Asra, gay Muslim
     "A few friends said you don't really have to have an official Imam, but you need someone who is knowledgeable enough about the Qur'an to do it. Fortunately, one of our friends was, and she offered to do it. She's a lesbian herself, and she said we could do it in her home."

    Three months after the proposal, the big day came. Asra wore a white shalwar kameez - a traditional Pakistani outfit - and Sarah a pink dress.

    "I wanted to wear leather, but Asra wouldn't let me," she sighs.

    "We got rings from Camden market, and we drew up contracts - we got a blueprint off the internet of a heterosexual contract and we both looked at it separately, to see if there were things we wanted to change."

    "I remember I put about the dog - that if we broke up, Asra wouldn't steal the dog."

    Asra rolls her eyes and adds "we also did a dowry, of £5. It was a symbolic thing and we've still got those £5 notes."

    In attendance were six friends, who also acted as witnesses - "and a cat," says Sarah.

    The short ceremony was conducted in Arabic, and additional duas - prayers - were read and the marriage was essentially no different from the nikahs performed for straight Muslim couples all over the world.

     
    There is growing visibility of gay Muslims in Britain, although not all are confident about coming out But the Islamic faith vehemently rejects homosexuality, and the fact this nikah was for a gay couple is highly offensive to the majority of Muslims - including Asra's own parents.

    "It's still very difficult for me to tell my family about my life being a lesbian. They know I am a believer, they know I am religious, but going as far as saying I am a lesbian is quite hard," Asra says.

    "I remember thinking this is the only time I am going to get married, and my family weren't there.

    "That was constantly going through my mind - I am having an Islamic nikah, doing as much as I can through my faith, but my family weren't there."

    However, Sarah's relationship with her family is quite different.

    "Because I wasn't born a Muslim - I converted five years ago - I think my family is quite accepting of my sexuality. But sometimes it seems like they are waiting for me to grow out of being a Muslim."

    Gay Muslim voices
     
    Sarah and Asra know their marriage is unorthodox, and the idea of a gay nikah would be rejected by the majority of Muslim scholars, but Sarah says it is nobody's business.

    Continue reading the main story

    Start Quote
     By not allowing same-sex couples to wed, there is a direct attack on the Qur'an's message that each person has a mate who is their 'comfort and their cloak'”
    End Quote
    Imam Daayiee Abdullah
     "It is between me and God, and when we got married it was not ideal, but we were doing our best."

    However, there is a small but growing voice within the Muslim community representing gay people, with the emergence of British gay Muslim support groups such as Imaan and Safra Project.

    One of the key advocates of Muslim gay marriage is the American Imam, Daayiee Abdullah - who himself is gay. He has performed a number of gay nikahs in America and has also advised gay British Muslim couples on how to perform the ceremony.

    He reasons that to deny gay Muslim couples the right to a religious union, goes against teachings in the Koran.

    Speaking to 5 live Investigates, he says: "Since Islamic legal precedence does not allow same sexes to wed, Muslim societies make it a legal impossibility within Islam [but] by not allowing same-sex couples to wed, there is a direct attack on the Koran's message that each person has a mate who is their 'comfort and their cloak'."

    It is not just within the Muslim community that gay Muslim couples such as Sarah and Asra have encountered hostility.

    "I feel there's Islamaphobia within the gay community. It's something that really worries me," says Sarah.

    Continue reading the main story
    LISTEN TO THE FULL REPORT
    You can hear the full 5 live Investigates report at 2100 GMT on Sunday, 20 February on BBC 5 live

    Download the 5 live Investigates podcast
    Post comments on our Facebook page
    Tweet the 5 live Investigates team
    Asra recalls a particularly unsavoury incident.

    "There was an occasion at gay pride once where one of the marchers turned around and quite crudely said 'we didn't know pride was allowing suicide bombers on the march' - it was really shocking to hear it from a fellow gay marcher."

    But according to Sarah, it's not just Muslims who are rejected by the gay community.

    "I think there's a deep-rooted assumption in the secular queer community that you can't be gay and believe in anything, apart from yourself or materialism."

    Acceptance
    However, gay unions are being integrated into wider British society even more - and the government recently announced plans to allow churches in England and Wales to host civil partnership ceremonies.

    Ministers have pledged greater equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, but said no religious group would be forced to host the ceremonies.

    The Church of England has said it will not do so. Quakers have welcomed the plans, with support also expected from Unitarians and Liberal Jews. But what about the Muslim community?

    "Homosexuality is not considered a halal way of living at the moment, so of course there's going to be an extreme reaction to a gay nikah. So, as a community we have to get tolerance before we can even attempt acceptance of marriage," says Asra.

    But she is hopeful for the future.

    "I certainly know younger gay Muslims that are out to their families and their families are absolutely fine with it.

    "Same-sex nikahs are still a contentious issue, but all I can say is I have done it, and I am completely comfortable and content with my faith and hopefully people will think 'well, let me try and get to that place'.


    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #1 - February 20, 2011, 04:27 PM

    They've got an awful long way to go before they gain acceptance.  I wish them luck, but I can't help but think the same as I do about gay Christians, etc - why bother?  Why stay in a homophobic religion when they could just leave?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #2 - February 20, 2011, 04:32 PM

    Why should they have to? I kjnow religion is foolish but people are made of many identities and therefore shouldn't have to give up one aspect for another.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #3 - February 20, 2011, 05:38 PM

    There is a religion which says I am abhorrent and worse than an animal for being exactly the way I was born to be. Instead of steering clear of this religion I want to be part of it, not only that but I want them to hold a special ceremony for me.

    Makes no sense to me.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #4 - February 20, 2011, 05:41 PM

    "I feel there's Islamaphobia within the gay community. It's something that really worries me," says Sarah.


    VERSUS

    "Homosexuality is not considered a halal way of living at the moment, so of course there's going to be an extreme reaction to a gay nikah. So, as a community we have to get tolerance before we can even attempt acceptance of marriage," says Asra.

    But she is hopeful for the future.

    "I certainly know younger gay Muslims that are out to their families and their families are absolutely fine with it.


    So she is willing to give a lot more chances to her muslim community than to her lgbt community. Even though it's muslims who tend to hang gay people. I know of no gay people who have hung muslims (ahem).

    If I could talk to this one, I'd say something like: Yeah whatever. Go bow down in front of your male, patriarchal, homophobic imaginary friend and consider yourself superior to all us mere humans while you enjoy the freedoms and rights won by the very LGBT community you think you're so much further above.
    handjob

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #5 - February 20, 2011, 05:59 PM

    Why should they have to? I kjnow religion is foolish but people are made of many identities and therefore shouldn't have to give up one aspect for another.

    Sure. But these two identities are in direct conflict with one another - how do these two girls reconcile the fact that for most Muslims homosexuality is inherently evil with the fact that they (as lesbians) still want to be a part of a group whose values are starkly pre-modern and anti-egalitarian?

  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #6 - February 20, 2011, 06:05 PM

    @allat

    why does it always have to be about choosing sides? it seems to me she's an indivdual who doesn't care about the whole muslim v lgbt community thing - she's just living her life the way she wants with the interpretations etc. that she feels comfortable with

    Quote
    If I could talk to this one, I'd say something like: Yeah whatever. Go bow down in front of your male, patriarchal, homophobic imaginary friend and consider yourself superior to all us mere humans while you enjoy the freedoms and rights won by the very LGBT community you think you're so much further above


    i never got that impression whatsoever from anything she said   wacko

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #7 - February 20, 2011, 06:07 PM

    Sure. But these two identities are in direct conflict with one another - how do these two girls reconcile the fact that for most Muslims homosexuality is inherently evil with the fact that they (as lesbians) still want to be a part of a group whose values are starkly pre-modern and anti-egalitarian?




    maybe they have progressive interpretations of scriptures that are non-orthodox or think that certain parts of Qur'an are no longer relevant etc. and following from that, as they say in the article, they want the Muslim community to become more tolerant - so maybe they feel that they are leading by example - despite all the abuse etc. they are likely to face

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #8 - February 20, 2011, 06:12 PM

    Quote
    "I wanted to wear leather, but Asra wouldn't let me," she sighs.


    Is it wrong for me to get turned on by this?

    Seriously though, the beard-brigade must be steaming over this kind of thing, I love it!

    And why is everyone being so harsh about it? I say props to her for getting a nikah, it is like a big middle finger to the beardos. It seems she is more of a cultural Muslim anyway so everyone should just let her be. It shouldn't be about the lgbt community over here and the Muslim community here. Anything which blurs those distinctions is a good thing imo.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #9 - February 20, 2011, 06:17 PM

    @allat

    why does it always have to be about choosing sides? it seems to me she's an indivdual who doesn't care about the whole muslim v lgbt community thing - she's just living her life the way she wants with the interpretations etc. that she feels comfortable with


    Well, she's the one who is picking sides. All she's doing in this article is bashing on LGBT communities, they are "islamophobic", they don't "believe in anything but themselves and materialism" etc. While she has nothing but hopeful eyes for the Muslim community. As though LGBT communities are homogenous and all LGBT people are exactly the same way... and as though LGBT people have absolutely NO reason to be suspicious of Islam, or of Abrahamic religions in general.

    Anyway, I think gay muslims, gay christians, gay orthodox jews etc. are quite a sad lot. Trying to appease a daddy figure who hates them in particular and whose religions make it obvious to all but the deluded few. But if they need that, I don't really care, good luck to them, however I don't see why they should not be critiqued for trying to defend the indefensible. Good on her for going about her life, whatever way she wants to interpret the horrid crap she seems to need to believe in. It doesn't mean everyone in the LGBT community has to bow down to every religionist's whim and fancy.

    i never got that impression whatsoever from anything she said   wacko


    That is the impression I got. Very much so. It's all over the article. She obviously overidentifies with being Muslim at the expense of the LGBT community. I guess it's part of the privilege of living in places where LGBT people are not fried for loving the wrong person, or don't have to stay in the closet and get "marriages of convenience" while jerking off strangers at truck stops because their very existence is considered anathema. Privilege is when you can get these freedoms handed to you, and piss on them too.

    I've known a few of these types. And her claim that nobody in the LGBT communities believes in anything is utter BS. There are many kinds of people in LGBT communities, and in my experience, most are actually NOT atheists. Most of us just have some self-respect and don't go kissing the ass of religious cults that contain a majority of people who hate us, and whose scripture backs that hatred.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #10 - February 20, 2011, 06:18 PM

    BTW, a lot of the same kind of BS is heard among the "Gay Republicans" and I have very similar views on them.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #11 - February 20, 2011, 06:19 PM

    Anything which blurs those distinctions is a good thing imo.


     Smiley

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #12 - February 20, 2011, 06:24 PM

    VERSUS

    So she is willing to give a lot more chances to her muslim community than to her lgbt community. Even though it's muslims who tend to hang gay people. I know of no gay people who have hung muslims (ahem).

    If I could talk to this one, I'd say something like: Yeah whatever. Go bow down in front of your male, patriarchal, homophobic imaginary friend and consider yourself superior to all us mere humans while you enjoy the freedoms and rights won by the very LGBT community you think you're so much further above.
    handjob


    That seems uncharacteristically mean coming from you allat. I mean, these chicks got some major fuckin balls on them to be out of the closet as Muslims and tell their story to the media. I fail to see how two Muslim lesbians standing up and demanding inclusion in their community/faith is a bad thing.

    On another note, are those two chicks in your avatar twins? Or maybe one is a clone? If so, that makes it extra hot.

    BTW, a lot of the same kind of BS is heard among the "Gay Republicans" and I have very similar views on them.


    I think that's different, because

    (1) Gay Republicans are people who want to be greedy, authoritarian assholes AND openly gay, whereas I don't think that it can be automatically assumed gay Muslims want to hold onto the negative aspects of their religion.

    (2) There is little chance of the Log Cabin Republicans creating a major leftward, progressive split from the GOP or reforming the GOP into a progressive organization, but in Judaism and Christianity there are examples of progressive religious folks either reforming existing sects/denominations or creating new ones that are progressive (e.g. some Reform Jewish groups, United Church of Christ, PCUSA, etc.)-- and I have little doubt that we are better off for the existence of such liberal/progressive Christian and Jewish organizations.

    fuck you
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #13 - February 20, 2011, 06:25 PM

    Sure. But these two identities are in direct conflict with one another - how do these two girls reconcile the fact that for most Muslims homosexuality is inherently evil with the fact that they (as lesbians) still want to be a part of a group whose values are starkly pre-modern and anti-egalitarian?




    That's their perogative, in the same way that some strictly religious people are also scientists, they might view their religion in a differant way to the way you view it.

    People are dynamic, complex, illogical, plural and complicated.

    I don't see anyone here arguing against peaceful people who call themselves moderate Muslims, even though those moderate Muslims are following an ideology that is unarguably founded by a man who most likely was violent (to say the least) among other nasty horrible things but was also meant to be an example and the perfect human, does that mean Muslim moderates should definitely have to leave Islam because moderatism and peacefulness are not compatible with Muhammed's Islam?

  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #14 - February 20, 2011, 06:33 PM

    @allat

    I  think what you highlighted was just a very small part of the article:

    It is not just within the Muslim community that gay Muslim couples such as Sarah and Asra have encountered hostility.

    "I feel there's Islamaphobia within the gay community. It's something that really worries me," says Sarah.

    Asra recalls a particularly unsavoury incident.

    "There was an occasion at gay pride once where one of the marchers turned around and quite crudely said 'we didn't know pride was allowing suicide bombers on the march' - it was really shocking to hear it from a fellow gay marcher."

    But according to Sarah, it's not just Muslims who are rejected by the gay community.

    "I think there's a deep-rooted assumption in the secular queer community that you can't be gay and believe in anything, apart from yourself or materialism."


    i think she's just expressing genuine experiences/feelings here - i don't think she is attacking the lgbt community or anything like that

    Quote
    Most of us just have some self-respect and don't go kissing the ass of religious cults that contain a majority of people who hate us, and whose scripture backs that hatred.


    cool. i have a lot of respect for this type too

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #15 - February 20, 2011, 06:35 PM

    Someone I met recently, a progressive Muslim who calls herself Muslim purely out of a need to identify with a "tribe" (and admits that that's all it is, she doesn't believe the Quran is from God or that Mo was a Prophet).... when she found out I'm bi and live with a woman, she asked me the same question every Muslim asks me, i.e. "have you seen A Jihad For Love?" I actually have seen parts of that movie, but not all of it, and I just find it interesting that if you're an LGBT person from a Muslim background, you are expected to have watched that movie and maybe store it on the topmost shelf in your house next to the Quran. But having been "out" for close to 20 years, I have seen lots of other movies, have had relationships with men and women and then some. I've not felt the need to reconcile with tribal identities that specifically exclude someone like me, especially since there are lots of other communities, including various LGBT groups and other spiritual communities that are actually welcoming to me. I look Arab and South Asian, I have a name that is Muslim sounding... how come I've NEVER, not ONCE experienced all this "islamophobia" in the LGBT community? Something tells me the woman in the article doth protest too much. How much of this victimhood is projected and how much actually exists?

    That seems uncharacteristically mean coming from you allat. I mean, these chicks got some major fuckin balls on them to be out of the closet as Muslims and tell their story to the media. I fail to see how two Muslim lesbians standing up and demanding inclusion in their community/faith is a bad thing.


    Yeah it does come across as mean, but I'm not saying they shouldn't be out and about doing their thing... no it is a good thing. I am happy for them as individuals. What I don't appreciate is their stance that LGBT communities are so close minded, while the Muslims are just like little kids we must coddle until they grow up. My mind is open to reinterpretations of outdated tribalistic BS, but I don't support bashing on LGBT people who have sacrificed and died so that these chicks could even speak openly about their sexuality.

    On another note, are those two chicks in your avatar twins? Or maybe one is a clone? If so, that makes it extra hot.


    Not twins, I think, just an androgynous couple Smiley

    (1) Gay Republicans are people who want to be greedy, authoritarian assholes AND openly gay, whereas I don't think that it can be automatically assumed gay Muslims want to hold onto the negative aspects of their religion.

    (2) There is little chance of the Log Cabin Republicans creating a major leftward, progressive split from the GOP or reforming the GOP into a progressive organization, but in Judaism and Christianity there are examples of progressive religious folks either reforming existing sects/denominations or creating new ones that are progressive (e.g. some Reform Jewish groups, United Church of Christ, PCUSA, etc.)-- and I have little doubt that we are better off for the existence of such liberal/progressive Christian and Jewish organizations.


    Yeah you got me. I despise the idea of "Gay Republicans" way more than Gay Muslims/Christians/Jews/Mormons/What Have You. Seriously. WTF...

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #16 - February 20, 2011, 06:42 PM

    maybe they have progressive interpretations of scriptures that are non-orthodox or think that certain parts of Qur'an are no longer relevant etc. and following from that, as they say in the article, they want the Muslim community to become more tolerant - so maybe they feel that they are leading by example - despite all the abuse etc. they are likely to face

    Personally I have a lot of issues with the way that almost every single problem nowadays is expressed in terms of (lack of) tolerance. The issue here is the issue of inequality and injustice within the framework of what is mainstream Islam.
    And the remedy is not more tolerance (one only tolerates what one dislikes in the first place) but rather a struggle for emancipation.

    it seems to me she's an indivdual who doesn't care about the whole muslim v lgbt community thing

    How could she not care - it's the immediate reality of her own life.

    That's their perogative, in the same way that some strictly religious people are also scientists, they might view their religion in a differant way to the way you view it.

    Sure. There are however huge inconsistencies in such positions imo.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #17 - February 20, 2011, 06:44 PM

    That's their perogative,


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LjsoYOz4D8

    I always think of that song when someone says that, cause before this song I didn't know what a prerogative was. Smiley

    fuck you
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #18 - February 20, 2011, 07:00 PM

    Personally I have a lot of issues with the way that almost every single problem nowadays is expressed in terms of (lack of) tolerance. The issue here is the issue of inequality and injustice within the framework of what is mainstream Islam.
    And the remedy is not more tolerance (one only tolerates what one dislikes in the first place) but rather a struggle for emancipation.
    How could she not care - it's the immediate reality of her own life.
    Sure. There are however huge inconsistencies in such positions imo.

    You didn't address my analogy between gay Muslims and moderate Muslims, I would be interested and grateful if you (or someone else) did.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #19 - February 20, 2011, 07:01 PM

    Someone I met recently, a progressive Muslim who calls herself Muslim purely out of a need to identify with a "tribe"

    Why? I could never understand that.

    There are so many ways to find and define one's identity. Why do people feel the need to impose tribalistic identities onto themselves? What's wrong with universal humanism?

  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #20 - February 20, 2011, 07:01 PM

    @allat

    I  think what you highlighted was just a very small part of the article:

    It is not just within the Muslim community that gay Muslim couples such as Sarah and Asra have encountered hostility.

    "I feel there's Islamaphobia within the gay community. It's something that really worries me," says Sarah.

    Asra recalls a particularly unsavoury incident.

    "There was an occasion at gay pride once where one of the marchers turned around and quite crudely said 'we didn't know pride was allowing suicide bombers on the march' - it was really shocking to hear it from a fellow gay marcher."


    i think she's just expressing genuine experiences/feelings here - i don't think she is attacking the lgbt community or anything like that

    cool. i have a lot of respect for this type too


    Yeah I mean she has valid concerns, if she's been targeted, though I don't know again how much of it is something that is projected because of this constant need to reinforce Muslim victimhood. In any case, yeah good luck to them, this is what I tell my gay muslim friends, and yeah I know some IRL, but the Abrahamic memeplex is just not my cup of tea. Smiley

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #21 - February 20, 2011, 07:06 PM

    You didn't address my analogy between gay Muslims and moderate Muslims, I would be interested and grateful if you (or someone else) did.

    Sorry about that.

    I don't see anyone here arguing against peaceful people who call themselves moderate Muslims, even though those moderate Muslims are following an ideology that is unarguably founded by a man who most likely was violent (to say the least) among other nasty horrible things but was also meant to be an example and the perfect human, does that mean Muslim moderates should definitely have to leave Islam because moderatism and peacefulness are not compatible with Muhammed's Islam?

    I don't have a problem with 'moderate' Muslims following whatever they want as long as they don't impose their values on anybody else - including other members of what some might perceive as 'their own' community.

    On the other hand I do want to have the right to openly criticize and asses their or anybody else's believes and truth claims.

  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #22 - February 20, 2011, 07:09 PM

    But my question is how can you see gay Muslims (and Christians) as either confused, a futile attempt, hypocrites or something similar (which is implied in the views of the above) if you don't see the same problem with 'moderate' or non fundamentalist Muslims, you can make the same argument for the former group as with the latter.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #23 - February 20, 2011, 07:14 PM

    Cokerface, you're new but that same opinion about moderate Muslims is not uncommon around here. I hold it as well, but I don't really care what delusions someone holds if they aren't harming others.

    fuck you
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #24 - February 20, 2011, 07:20 PM

    Ok then fair enough, as long as there isn't a double standard and there is an understanding that most people somehow belong to an ideology that is detrimental to them and in some cases (religion, politics fe) actually threatens their existence.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #25 - February 20, 2011, 07:24 PM

    Dear lord that contract must have looked crazy.  Who can divorce who? who gets the inheritance? Whose job is it to provide for the family?  Who gets to keep their own money when they work while being married?  

    /headasplode

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #26 - February 20, 2011, 07:24 PM

    ... I don't really care what delusions someone holds if they aren't harming others.

    this
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #27 - February 20, 2011, 07:46 PM

    Why? I could never understand that.

    There are so many ways to find and define one's identity. Why do people feel the need to impose tribalistic identities onto themselves? What's wrong with universal humanism?




    Is universal humanism not yet another tribal identity?
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #28 - February 20, 2011, 07:51 PM

    Yes but it's the best one, plus, anyone who is a meat-eater or is afraid of aliens is going to be tribal at even the most minimum level.

    Which means 99.999% of the Earth's population.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #29 - February 20, 2011, 07:56 PM

    Is universal humanism not yet another tribal identity?

    No. Because of its truly universalistic nature.

    Unless you think that all humans = tribe.

    The problem I have with tribalism is its particularity. It's an ideology that relies on a strong cultural/ethnic identity that separates members of a group from the members of another group thereby dehumanizing or considering members of other groups as inherently inferior.






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