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Theme Changer

 Topic: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)

 (Read 87529 times)
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  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #390 - March 21, 2011, 08:06 PM

    Well I could probably make a bad chowder at least. Will try today.  grin12

    *googles chowder*
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #391 - March 21, 2011, 08:11 PM

    Tell us how it goes  dance

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #392 - March 21, 2011, 08:44 PM

    @Spinoza

    Would you object if someone did this with humans?


    Firstly, I was responding to MAB's position, which was that suffering, and the prevention of suffering, are central to deciding what is moral. Other matters are not relevant. Therefore, according to his position, I would contend that if cattle were raised and killed for food, in a painless way, then he should have no moral objection to it.

    I'd take a similar utilitarian position towards raising livestock. In captivity, they are protected from predation, given treatment if they are sick and they need not die of a protracted and painful illness in old age, etc. An animal in captivity may, if treated humanely, suffer less than they would in the wild. By contrast to this, however, a human in captivity is a different scenario. Humans desire more than merely grazing on fields. They suffer when subjected to such an existence. But none of this, as far as I know, really applies to cattle. Their life is one of pastoral grazing, they're not deprived in any way by living in such a way. Therefore, according to this understanding, the two scenarios involving humans and cattle are not the same.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #393 - March 21, 2011, 09:07 PM

    @Spinoza

    Firstly, I was responding to MAB's position, which was that suffering, and the prevention of suffering, are central to deciding what is moral. Other matters are not relevant. Therefore, according to his position, I would contend that if cattle were raised and killed for food, in a painless way, then he should have no moral objection to it.


    Sure, but I'm interested in your views nonetheless Smiley

    Quote
    I'd take a similar utilitarian position towards raising livestock. In captivity, they are protected from predation, given treatment if they are sick and they need not die of a protracted and painful illness in old age, etc. An animal in captivity may, if treated humanely, suffer less than they would in the wild. By contrast to this, however, a human in captivity is a different scenario. Humans desire more than merely grazing on fields. They suffer when subjected to such an existence. But none of this, as far as I know, really applies to cattle. Their life is one of pastoral grazing, they're not deprived in any way by living in such a way. Therefore, according to this understanding, the two scenarios involving humans and cattle are not the same.


    And if the humans were given free reign to live their lives as they wish, not being deprived of anything they require, up until a certain point when they are given a pain-free death. What if they were even raised in such a manner that they were taught their purpose was to fulfil some end that their parents/masters want of them, and consequently they enjoy fulfilling it...

    Granted that may be a little far-fetched (though it does remind me of stories of children willingly being sacrificed)... I guess I'm just uneasy with the whole idea of forcibly using a sentient being as a means to an end... not that good cannot come of it, nor would I like to assume what cattle want... but there seem to be too many slippery slopes around.

    Slightly off topic but...if there is high demand for artificial meat, how long would it take to produce something as tasty as chicken wings? I haven't had mycoprotein, but I'm told it tastes okayish-to-goodish. A decent level of investment might bear fruit meat (see what I did there? Ain't I witteh!) pretty quickly.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #394 - March 21, 2011, 09:20 PM

    Are you a vegan Prince?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #395 - March 21, 2011, 10:37 PM

    @Spinoza

    Quote
    And if the humans were given free reign to live their lives as they wish, not being deprived of anything they require, up until a certain point when they are given a pain-free death. What if they were even raised in such a manner that they were taught their purpose was to fulfil some end that their parents/masters want of them, and consequently they enjoy fulfilling it...


    It's a remote possibility, and involves coercion all the way. Besides that, I'm not sure that there is a human that is so psychologically sub-par that they would be indifferent to such a thing. Such a life would be one of confinement and regulation, and I suspect few humans would have no inclination to resist it. Therefore, it cannot be said that it doesn't result in the suffering of the individuals concerned and so, it may as such be held to remain morally impermissible.

    But maybe you think that's not an entirely decisive response on my part. Maybe it's not, but on the subject of moral questions, things are frequently indecisive. We just have to appeal to the best arguments, not necessarily the absolutely conclusive ones. I believe that what I wrote above does constitute, at least in part, an adequate response to your hypothetical.

    Quote
    (though it does remind me of stories of children willingly being sacrificed)


    Where and when did this happen?

    Quote
    I guess I'm just uneasy with the whole idea of forcibly using a sentient being as a means to an end


    I'd say also that the element of coercion in raising cattle is far less than what it would be in rearing humans for the same purpose. If a human were placed in such a situation then they would definitely need to be forced to do certain things, to adopt a certain way of living, to allow their captors to shape their way of life entirely.  In the case of livestock, the use of force is comparatively minimal, and the animals are essentially living the same life they would in the wild, free of external influence.

    Quote
    Slightly off topic but...if there is high demand for artificial meat, how long would it take to produce something as tasty as chicken wings?


    Sorry, I'm not really knowledgeable on the subject of artificial meat. Not being a vegetarian, I prefer the real thing.  Tongue

    Even so though, I suppose such substitutes would be useful, especially for getting people off of eating meat. It would be much easier to do if people didn't have to go from eating real food to rabbit food. And I think people simply will have to start eating less of it anyway, due to the environmental impact of rearing cattle, in addition to the often objectionable practices involved with raising livestock.

    Just to clarify, I'm not opposed to vegetarianism, and I think people should start moving towards being vegetarians ultimately, given that meat consumption isn't really necessary and it's also arguably becoming increasingly unsustainable. I myself don't even eat meat as much nowadays, and I certainly don't feel the need to. Even so, I think that the option to eat the stuff should be retained. I'm not for forcing people to stop, but I think we could do well to eat less of it.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #396 - March 21, 2011, 10:58 PM


    Happy cows being put out to pasture after a long winter in the barn.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94WrSub51bU&NR=1

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #397 - March 21, 2011, 10:58 PM

    Sad. In a few decades, there will only be a few cows left in zoos, and I'll be going to an illegal dealer for my bacon sammich hit.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #398 - March 21, 2011, 11:06 PM

    Where and when did this happen?

    There was a documentary on BBC a year or so ago about a little Inca girl that was sacrificed to the Sun God. She had faith that this was the right thing to do and accepted her fate willingly.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY0hf8khGf0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUDiXs927-U&feature=related
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #399 - March 21, 2011, 11:10 PM

    Sad. In a few decades, there will only be a few cows left in zoos, and.....

    Selective breeding.. selective breeding.. artificial insemination

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmkj5gq1cQU

    guys if you don't like that video.. let me know i will remove it

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #400 - March 21, 2011, 11:19 PM

    Quote
    There was a documentary on BBC a year or so ago about a little Inca girl that was sacrificed to the Sun God. She had faith that this was the right thing to do and accepted her fate willingly.


    Fucked up. Ta for the links.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #401 - March 21, 2011, 11:32 PM

    Selective breeding.. selective breeding.. artificial insemination


    I mean when eating meat is outlawed. Animals such as cows that are controlled and bred in massive numbers will be obsolete, reduced to only a fraction of their population, probably only seen in zoos or reservations.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #402 - March 21, 2011, 11:43 PM

    There was a documentary on BBC a year or so ago about a little Inca girl that was sacrificed to the Sun God. She had faith that this was the right thing to do and accepted her fate willingly.

    Speculation. We have no possible way of knowing her mental and emotional state before the sacrifice.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #403 - March 22, 2011, 01:16 AM

    .
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #404 - March 22, 2011, 01:16 AM

    .
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #405 - March 22, 2011, 03:33 AM

    Jazakallah khair for your response, akhi.  Insha'allah, I will respond when I have the time to do so.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #406 - March 22, 2011, 07:06 AM

    Quote from: Ishina
    I mean when eating meat is outlawed. Animals such as cows that are controlled and bred in massive numbers will be obsolete, reduced to only a fraction of their population, probably only seen in zoos or reservations.


    If people gave up eating meat this would be bound to happen. This would leave the land currently occupied by domestic animals available for recolonization (where they still exist) by the wild bovines, pigs etc that humans eliminated in the past to make way for domesticated varieties - as well as the predators that human stock raisers the world over have invariably sought to exterminate to protect their slave varieties selectively bred for docility and thereby deprived  of their ability to effectively protect themselves and their offspring from wolves, lions etc. At the very least eating LESS meat would allow farm animals a better life than those raised in industrial concentration camps. It would also remove the economic incentive to destroy the world's forests and the wildlife they contain to create more (temporary) pasture land.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #407 - March 22, 2011, 07:27 AM

    I don't regard my own life as INHERENTLY more valuable than a dog's and am therefore not going to so regard anybody else's. That's not to say I wouldn't shoot a tiger that was leaping through the air at me or someone close to me. Having said that, I am not sure I could bring myself to shoot a specimen of this increasingly rare animal if I spotted one readying itself to jump on the back of some unsuspecting complete stranger to me. If the person in question was a poacher I'd cheer the tiger on!

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #408 - March 22, 2011, 07:55 AM

    I do not object to pest control. I've signalled this many times.

    Yeah, thats the kind of thing I had in mind when I said the line is abitrary.

    Vegetarianism is no more uncomfortable a lifestyle than boycotting goods produced in sweatshops. There are ethical alternatives to everything I had when I was a carnivore. To repeat, whether I personally conform to my principles or not does not suggest that an idea is wrong. A wife-beater who warns others not to beat their wives might be a hypocrite, but his view is not invalidated by his personal conduct. Tu quoque again.

    I don’t conform to the rules of debate when forming an opinion about a person. I think in that case I could venture “You hypocrite piece of shit” without offending the gods of casual expression too much.

    I do not purchase any animal products. I buy vegetarian or vegan alternatives. But your argument is worth exploring. At bottom what it suggests is that unless one purges every evil in the world one cannot argue for the reduction of others. By that token one should not act to change anything because there is nowhere that one can start that will not elicit charges of ignoring others.

    No. It means 9/10 vegetarians are smug self-satisfied wankers who think cutting meat out of their diet, crying about baby animals and doing a bit of Yoga makes them morally superior, while sipping on their cows milk and wearing the skin of dead animals. That don’t impress me much. If one wants to seize the moral victory in this game, one ought not be oblivious to the hypocrisy visible to the naked eye, because two can play at that game.

    I do have a tinge of respect for vegans though, because they at least have the courage of their convictions and don’t care if they are a laughing stock to at least one species of animal. It's just a shame that most of them are whiney pussies who don't know when to shut the fuck up, otherwise I'd be more inclined to meet them on an equal level of respect to my fellow carnivores.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #409 - March 22, 2011, 08:22 AM

    Ishina I think your experience with vegetarians has been unpleasant because of where you live. Europeans are born carnivores. It's because of their herder-warrior lifestyle during the ice age. Europeans can consume all sorts of meat as staple food and still be in shape and healthy. Conversely a European will have to hit the gym 3 times a week if he ate rice/noodles for every meal. Meat tastes good for obvious reasons. So their having to abstain and walk away every time they catch a waft of delicious cooked meat gets them grumpy. dance


    Fake friends flatter you. Their compliments are made up. Nasty enemies criticize you harshly. They pick on you unnecessarily. Neither of them help you improve yourself. The best critic is honest and knows you exactly and the best person you can choose to follow is someone closest to you.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #410 - March 22, 2011, 08:28 AM

    osmanthus notes that there was no ice age outside of Europe, obviously.................... whistling2

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #411 - March 22, 2011, 09:12 AM

    Hi.....

    You are right. Ice Age included parts outside of Europe. Actually the North East Asians are more adapted for snow than Europeans are. But the thing is Orientals cannot eat and stomach whole chunks of meat without anything else filling the main course of their diet and wash it down with beer the same way people of European descent can. There is a reason why they have no such glamorous things as taking a rifle and going out to shoot a deer down to stock up their food supply or sitting around a campfire and digging in a plate full of different dishes of meat.

    Fake friends flatter you. Their compliments are made up. Nasty enemies criticize you harshly. They pick on you unnecessarily. Neither of them help you improve yourself. The best critic is honest and knows you exactly and the best person you can choose to follow is someone closest to you.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #412 - March 22, 2011, 09:18 AM

    K. So of course that would also mean the native American Indians couldn't either, given that they are from the same genetic stock. Oh, wait........................

    And don't mention the Ainu either.  grin12

    And of course Eskimos are well known for living on rice.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #413 - March 22, 2011, 09:53 AM

    Speculation. We have no possible way of knowing her mental and emotional state before the sacrifice.

    Yeah, sure. But according to the uncovered info she was probably a willing victim.

    What I found disturbing though is that the makers of the documentary sort of glorified her pointless death by suggesting that such practice of human sacrifice was a brilliant invention of Inca civilization and something positive altogether - "share with the girl her pride and excitement for having been selected for the honour of being sacrificed" to a giant ball of hydrogen.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #414 - March 22, 2011, 12:13 PM

    Are you a vegan Prince?


    No, but I probably should be.  hiding
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #415 - March 22, 2011, 03:48 PM

    Hitler was a vegetarian

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #416 - March 22, 2011, 03:49 PM

    Quote from: Ishina
    It's just a shame that most of them [vegans] are whiney pussies who don't know when to shut the fuck up,


    You're a vegan then?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #417 - March 22, 2011, 03:50 PM

    Hitler was a vegetarian


    You're a vegetarian then?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #418 - March 22, 2011, 03:54 PM

    Quote from: Cheetah
    You're a vegetarian then?


    Ah  Touché turtle. Do you mind explaining the logic of that question?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Being Vegetarian (continued from shout box)
     Reply #419 - March 22, 2011, 03:56 PM

    You can call me Touche Turtle or any other sarcastic names you want, but it wasn't me who chose your avatar.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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