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Theme Changer

 Topic: Existing theory of ex-Muslims

 (Read 34724 times)
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  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #120 - March 16, 2011, 10:04 PM

    I find it hard to believe a bright button like you missed that Debunker posted it above, MaB


    ^^^ what Hassan said.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #121 - March 16, 2011, 10:07 PM

    I saw the "dual argument" but I was under the impression that he said I answered that in saying  "That's about right Bison". No?





    No, that was just a side note... I'm sorry I confused you. How about you read my first post addressed to you again? slowly this time, please.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #122 - March 16, 2011, 10:08 PM

    btw I'm with MaB on this matter. The question why would one seek to leave Islam, for whatever self-serving motive, thinking that he might burn forever in Hell? That's because that person no-longer believes he will burn in hell! and this is precisely because of what MaB is saying that our self-serving motives drive us to believe or not believe - or rather find reasons to rationalise what we want.

    I do not confine my thoughts to the Eternally Damned. I extend my theory of the formation of ideas to every sphere of human knowledge high and low, in politics, in religion, in morality, in everything under heaven with the possible exception of impersonal subjects like mathematics. Anything in which men have a personal stake is informed by their emotional glands.


  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #123 - March 16, 2011, 10:12 PM

    btw I'm with MaB on this matter. The question why would one seek to leave Islam, for whatever self-serving motive, thinking that he might burn forever in Hell? That's because that person no-longer believes he will burn in hell! and this is precisely because of what MaB is saying that our self-serving motives drive us to believe or not believe - or rather find reasons to rationalise what we want.


    So essentially, are you saying that one eventually makes a (conscious) decision, based on self-serving motives, to no longer believe in Hell, before the notion of Hell becomes a lie to them?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #124 - March 16, 2011, 10:14 PM

    I do not confine my thoughts to the Eternally Damned. I extend my theory of the formation of ideas to every sphere of human knowledge high and low, in politics, in religion, in morality, in everything under heaven with the possible exception of impersonal subjects like mathematics. Anything in which men have a personal stake is informed by their emotional glands.


    I know you do - and I agree with you.

    And for those seem worried that this might undermine their reasons for leaving Islam - well it does and it doesn't - since it undermines reasons for belief also - and the idea that one is deserving of reward or punishment for it - particularly the obscene punishment of the Abrahamic religions that nothing can justify.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #125 - March 16, 2011, 10:15 PM

    I do not say that men do not possess complete intellectual integrity. I would never say such a thing. I'm affronted. What I say is that men have not a shadow of integrity whatsoever.  I am making a more radical assertion. The propelling motive in the formation of ideas is chiefly and primarily what contents a man's spirit. Ratiocination is the clothes that emotion wears. Only having once decided what is temperamentally suitable do we go about furnishing it with such justifications as we can command.

    Do I make make sweeping claim? Answer: If you can find a man who's spared no opportunity to disprove his beliefs with the zest that he attacks opposing beliefs you can do something I cannot. If such a man had a tail and swung from a tree he would be on the endangered species list.

    This does not mean that there is no sphere of human knowledge from which emotion is absent. There are. Nobody is ever excercised by mathematics for instance. But the moment we fall to discussing any doubtful area of human knowledge, the insance our topic is a matter of contention, political or theological, up springs the Old Adam.


    Hola Amante,

    I think Z10 and a few others have been hitting on the point.  The first assertion which you admit is that the " thinking man", a man who dogmatically searches out every possibility to every thing is a fictional entity.  Fair enough to use an aspiring ideal, but to use it as a standard by which to measure a human's intentions such as a man's loss of faith in a religion and to say that because he did not search out every possibility then he must have used his emotions primarily is to turn the "thinking man" aspiring ideal into a straw man with which to browbeat others.  This isn't the only time this has been done, Jesus is held as an ideal man for others to emulate, which is fine, until the fiery calls that all men are but lowly sinners and need to repent comes around.  At this point Jesus is no long an aspiring character but a crude cudgel to beat with.

    In this same vein you beat up the straw man of the thinking man as a fictional entity to say, " Well if we are not purely rational beings guided by our intellect, then we must be shallow emotional creatures, desperately clinging to want to feel and throwing the thread bare cloak over our emotions and calling them ideals."  At this point we have gone from one extreme to the other.  Which is the point I was trying to make yesterday.  Men are not unemotional automatons when it comes to making decisions, but neither are men ravishing emotional devourers changing ideas and creeds on emotional whims.  Logic, rationality, deduction, critical analysis, and a certain will towards logic and away from petty emotions is found at different strengths at different times in different people.    This is backed up by theory in social psychology and in persuasive and anecdotal arguments brought up here ( people have faced immediate death for becoming an atheist, Christian, Muslim, Democrat, Republican, Anarchist, etc. all of which invalidate your idea that immediate satisfaction is what is most important).

    Your ideas are not wrong, they are just not complete but to brow beat the faithless or the faithful, to say that because one hasn't studied years on end a subject that he must be an emotional featherweight blowing where he desires take him is to either lack the full picture or to create a false dichotomy.

    In reality though I just posted this with the hopes of raising your ire, I hear coitus iratum is the best.

    Agradezco mucho el favor que no dudo me dispensarán, y en la espera de sus noticias les saludo atentamente,

    Tu amante.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #126 - March 16, 2011, 10:17 PM

    So essentially, are you saying that one eventually makes a (conscious) decision, based on self-serving motives, to no longer believe in Hell, before actually disbelieving in it?


    No. One has self-serving motives for not believing (and believing) in what one used to believe - motives that are more powerful than the self-serving motives that one had for believing - whatever they may be and for whatever reason that led one to that point.

    The actual beliefs in things like Hell are then given/denied rational reasons as a consequence after the event - and not consciously - but (believed) to be a result of rational and reasoned thought.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #127 - March 16, 2011, 10:24 PM

    Note my edits - I didn't make it clear at first.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #128 - March 16, 2011, 10:26 PM

    Quote
    The actual beliefs in things like Hell are then given/denied rational reasons as a consequence after the event - and not consciously - but (believed) to be a result of rational and reasoned thought.

    so there's the illusion of rationally driven decisions, when these decisions are actually based on self-serving motives? Is that what you're saying?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #129 - March 16, 2011, 10:26 PM

    w
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #130 - March 16, 2011, 10:30 PM

    btw I'm with MaB on this matter. The question why would one seek to leave Islam, for whatever self-serving motive, thinking that he might burn forever in Hell? That's because that person no-longer believes he will burn in hell! and this is precisely because of what MaB is saying that our self-serving motives drive us to believe or not believe - or rather find reasons to rationalise what we want.

    nope, my biggest fear was being wrong, and stuck to Pascals wager for a good number of years before I had the confidence of thought to call quits on Islam.  In other words I did it the other way round.  I had to openly say one day I no longer believed in Islam, and only after crossing that bridge did I feel free from the baggage of hell.  

    Only once I'd reached my destination, I removed the sticky address labels marked "To Hell" off my luggage.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #131 - March 16, 2011, 10:32 PM

    so there's the illusion of rationally driven decisions, when these decisions are actually based on self-serving motives? Is that what you're saying?


    Yes. This is not a subject I have given a great deal of thought to, but rather just found myself instinctively agreeing with what MaB was saying.

    In short, I'm not saying the rational reasons people give don't have merit. But rather that one can find good rational reasons to support almost any position - and therefore it is the reason why one takes that position that is arguably more revealing than the rational reasons they give.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #132 - March 16, 2011, 10:34 PM

    A person does not join the Devil's party merely because he wants to go whoring at the Condom of the Skirt-Chaser Bar. What commonly happens is is that he finds some aspect of the faith which he dislikes. He perhaps does not wanna sport a bushy face if he's man or she doesn't wanna don the hijab.  Something happens to upset his modern sensibility. It's a gut reaction. From there he begins to cast about for more expansive interpretations of Islam and runs into a book by the anti-clerical types. Being open to persuasion he accepts the arguments advanced by the  merchants of irreligion. Owing to the fact that Islam makes him sweat under the collar he does does  not trouble to question the premise which underpins his new belief. The man heaves a big sigh of relief and skips his way merry along.

    The point is that the intellectual argument is the outward manifestation of something which stirs deep within his bowels.

    Ive noticed that when you're cornered you start stuttering Shakepearean English like somebody with Tourettes uses swear words.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #133 - March 16, 2011, 10:39 PM

    In short, I'm not saying the rational reasons people give don't have merit. But rather that one can find good rational reasons to support almost any position

    I am surprised you can say that.  Thats because you're not a rational/thinking person, and you (and MAB prob also), as per Myers Briggs, are naturally geared towards your feeling senses.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #134 - March 16, 2011, 10:40 PM

    A person does not join the Devil's party merely because he wants to go whoring at the Condom of the Skirt-Chaser Bar. What commonly happens is is that he finds some aspect of the faith which he dislikes. He perhaps does not wanna sport a bushy face if he's man or she doesn't wanna don the hijab.  Something happens to upset his modern sensibility. It's a gut reaction. From there he begins to cast about for more expansive interpretations of Islam and runs into a book by the anti-clerical types. Being open to persuasion he accepts the arguments advanced by the  merchants of irreligion. Owing to the fact that Islam makes him sweat under the collar he does does  not trouble to question the premise which underpins his new belief. The man heaves a big sigh of relief and skips his way merry along.

    The point is that the intellectual argument is the outward manifestation of something which stirs deep within his bowels.


    Ok, Bison, I'll come clean, I'll confess my sins. The goal behind my elaborate first post addressed to you was to harness a response akin to the following:

    We all know that the distant promise of punishment is not as compelling a drive as the demands of the present. We know that we should put away more money for a rainy day, that we should excercise more than we do, that we should not drink so much, but the future promise of ill-being is not as compelling a motive for action than the momentary to momemtary impulse. And I do not speak of merely Islam.

    Can you please forgive me?


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #135 - March 16, 2011, 10:42 PM

    Thats because you're not a rational/thinking person


    You know me so well IsLame  Roll Eyes

    Like I said before - you and I are on different wavelengths.

  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #136 - March 16, 2011, 10:45 PM

    And thats why, if we are attempting to draw conclusions for everyone, we have to attempt to be inclusive of everyone.  We all think differently, we are all different, and we must respect that.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #137 - March 16, 2011, 10:46 PM

    Yes. This is not a subject I have given a great deal of thought to, but rather just found myself instinctively agreeing with what MaB was saying.

    In short, I'm not saying the rational reasons people give don't have merit. But rather that one can find good rational reasons to support almost any position - and therefore it is the reason why one takes that position that is arguably more revealing than the rational reasons they give.


    Wonderful, Hassan, thanks!

    By the way, you are still my first and only love... but I'm not sure about the "only" part after today. I think I'm falling in love with another CEMBer.  001_wub  

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #138 - March 16, 2011, 10:49 PM

    You know me so well IsLame  Roll Eyes

    Like I said before - you and I are on different wavelengths.




    Like Bison so brilliantly said in one of his posts... isalme is the the apostates King, and you are their Queen... 

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #139 - March 16, 2011, 10:53 PM

    Wonderful, Hassan, thanks!

    By the way, you are still my first and only love... but I'm not sure about the "only" part after today. I think I'm falling in love with another CEMBer.  001_wub  


    lol I forgive you - MaB is a very intriguing character.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #140 - March 16, 2011, 10:54 PM

    Like Bison so brilliantly said in one of his posts... isalme is the the apostates King, and you are their Queen... 


    Hmmmm.....
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #141 - March 16, 2011, 10:55 PM

    IsLame is the apostates John Lennon, Hassan is the apostates Paul McCartney / George Harrison.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #142 - March 16, 2011, 10:59 PM

    I preferred the King & Queen scenario.  Now where is she, its time for bed.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #143 - March 16, 2011, 11:02 PM


    Well, either way, you're both cool as fuck.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #144 - March 16, 2011, 11:08 PM

    q
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #145 - March 16, 2011, 11:08 PM

    There is still a glaring lack of equivalence between belief and disbelief in a claim like Hell. Not believing Hell exists has about as much affect upon my current existence as not believing in Narnia. We can’t say the same about someone who does believe in Hell.

    If someone wants to say ‘disbelief in Hell is a positive claim’, fine. I can live with that. It’s not important. What is important is the relevance to one’s existence. Such a disbelief holds no power over me in the way that belief does. I am free from the all the burdens associated with that particular belief - and so, in all practical application, the two opposing ‘positive claims’ are worlds apart. I wouldn't expect much in the way of justification for my mindset, about something I don't even believe exists.

    If someone wants to say ‘disbelief in Hell is a position of faith’, fine. I can live with that too. As long as the one making this convoluted claim understands that there isn’t much actual ‘faith’ in anything going on in my mind. I mean, I can pretend to have faith that Hell doesn’t exist, if it makes you feel better, but it’s extra effort on my part to do so, effort it wouldn’t normally occur to me to make. Again, in all practical application, this ‘faith’ you say I feel, to me feels a lot like nothing at all.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #146 - March 16, 2011, 11:13 PM

    Rinse and repeat for all other silly theistic claims.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #147 - March 16, 2011, 11:17 PM

    this is the worst thread ever

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #148 - March 16, 2011, 11:19 PM

    @ Ishina

    Quote
    There is still a glaring lack of equivalence between belief and disbelief in a claim like Hell. Not believing Hell exists has about as much affect upon my current existence as not believing in Narnia. We can’t say the same about someone who does believe in Hell.

     

    Your argument is flawless if applied to those who never been indoctrinated to believe in the supernatural. But when we consider those who were trained to believe in fairy tales all their lives, Bison/Hassan's argument holds great potential.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #149 - March 16, 2011, 11:21 PM

    q
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