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 Topic: Existing theory of ex-Muslims

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  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #150 - March 16, 2011, 11:32 PM
    Quote from: debunker on March 16, 2011, 11:19 PM
    @ Ishina
     

    Your argument is flawless if applied to those who never been indoctrinated to believe in the supernatural. But when we consider those who were trained to believe in fairy tales all their lives, Bison/Hassan's argument holds great potential.


    But this is about replacement belief. It can apply to those who formally were indoctrinated and no longer believe. I have not read it all, and I might be wrong, but isn't the argument that belief is quickly replaced with belief? I'd say simply, belief is replaced with disbelief.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #151 - March 16, 2011, 11:35 PM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 11:21 PM
    Very cute.

    I'm not here to help you convert the Murtadeen to the siratul mustaqeem. I will mount you.  But I think Mohammed (whom God extoll) was a first-rate psychologist. He knew that offering the towelheads the promise of Jannah al Firdous was not quite enough. Had to make sure that he appealed to their emotions by threatening post-mortem retribution. Dissent from him and you will breakdance in the lowest rung of Jahannam. Genius.

    Not so genius.  Jahannam was already a well established concept that he simply copied from the other monotheistic faiths.  In fact he didnt do anything much cleverer than was tippexing out the author, and stick his own name in there.
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  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #152 - March 16, 2011, 11:36 PM
    s
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #153 - March 16, 2011, 11:38 PM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 11:08 PM
    You call the truth seeker a lofty ideal. Most men consider themselves truth seekers. They imagine that their beliefs are forensically arrived at. I question this. I don't question the truth value of their ideas. Only the process by which they arrived at them.


    I have said this is fine and that there is plenty of evidence that men do not arrive at conclusions strictly by logic, but this is not the same as saying that every person that says they have arrived at a conclusion logically is mistaken nor confused, nor that the did in fact arrive at their conclusion by using rational or logical processes.

    Edit: that should read came to their conclusion by using logic

    Quote
    To flesh this out a little more consider the debate we had recently about capital punishment. I set out the reasons why all the common objections to the death penalty are ill-reasoned, ill-argued and ill-concieved. The most compelling of which is that the hangman may fetch a wrongfully convicted man. The undergirding premise here is that any policy which kills the innocent must be wrong. But all of us support things which kill innocent people daily. The driving system kills many thousands annually. This is not a faint hypothetical. It's a statistical certianty. The prospect of innocent deaths is not a veto on public policy. There is no argument against hanging.  But does that make one reconciled to the death penalty? Bosh!  People have an emotional objection to putting a man to death, me included.  I do not support hanging notwitshtanding  my claims to the contrary. It does not fit in with my sensibility. It does not sit easily with my emotional make-up. So I oppose it. Arguments are just superficial colouration.
    Steady now. I maintian that the primary consideration in the formation of belief is what contents one's spirit. That  a person goes to his death for his creed shows only that he would rather perish than disobey his inner master.  I have not encountered a Republican or Democrat killed for their political beliefs but the religious martyer is simply following his conscience arrived at by emotion and defended by arguments. To recant his beliefs would prove more wounding to his ego than to perish. You are making the mistake of confounding the contentment of one's spirit to physical pleasure or pain. A man can undergo privation in order to soothe his conscience. Contenting one's inner voice is what propels him. No man does anything and I mean anything not directed to pleasing himself. I'm opening myself pretty wide here because I'm confident of the correctness of my assertion. If you can find any action not motivated by inner contentment I'm all ears.


    At this point you have moved into the Austrian economics perspective of "purposeful" action, which all action is done to the benefit of the agent.  This I agree with, but it is not the same thing as saying that all ( or the vast majority) of human interaction is driven by emotion in the vivid colloquial sense.    

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #154 - March 16, 2011, 11:42 PM
    q
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #155 - March 17, 2011, 12:01 AM
    But it isn't 'either or'. There are not only two options. Rejecting one particular given claim is no guarantee of any degree of certainty in another given claim. And in this case, you can believe in both anyway. You can believe in Allah and believe in evolution, believe in God and believe in the Big Bang.

    I think what matters is consistancy, that you treat each individual claim on its own merits and flaws, as a thing in itself.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #156 - March 17, 2011, 12:07 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 16, 2011, 11:32 PM
    But this is about replacement belief. It can apply to those who formally were indoctrinated and no longer believe.

    Yes, of course, your argument is still flawaless of ex-believers too.

    Quote
    I have not read it all, and I might be wrong, but isn't the argument that belief is quickly replaced with belief? I'd say simply, belief is replaced with disbelief.

    No. there's nothing in Bison's argument about how "quickly" one deserts a certain position for another... it was all about motives.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #157 - March 17, 2011, 12:11 AM
    q
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #158 - March 17, 2011, 12:19 AM
    d
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #159 - March 17, 2011, 12:20 AM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 11:21 PM
    Very cute.

    I'm not here to help you convert the Murtadeen to the siratul mustaqeem. I will mount you.  But I think Mohammed (whom God extoll) was a first-rate psychologist. He knew that offering the towelheads the promise of Jannah al Firdous was not quite enough. Had to make sure that he appealed to their emotions by threatening post-mortem retribution. Dissent from him and you will breakdance in the lowest rung of Jahannam. Genius.


    Bison, my love, you made 2 misatkes in your comment above.

    1- You assumed I'm trying to convert ex-believers back to Islam. No, my dearest. I'm here mostly because my real life friends are boring. No intellectually stimulating conversations or anything of that sort. That and the fact that I find this forum diverting enough when I'm sorely in need to justify my shameless procrastination to myself.

    2- Why would you think Muhammed was a great psychologist, when all he did, as you certainly believe, was copy (and distort) the ideas of ancient people before him? Surely you should give the credit to the first human who came up with the idea of Paradise and Hell. I heard it's thought be an Egyptian.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #160 - March 17, 2011, 12:23 AM
    Quote from: debunker on March 17, 2011, 12:07 AM
    No. there's nothing in Bison's argument about how "quickly" one deserts a certain position for another... it was all about motives.


    But there is the suggestion that, to leave religion and its claims, one must accept other equivalent claims with the same fervour.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #161 - March 17, 2011, 12:23 AM
    Quote from: debunker on March 17, 2011, 12:20 AM
    2- Why would you think Muhammed was a great psychologist, when all he did, as you certainly believe, was copy (and distort) the ideas of ancient people before him? Surely you should give the credit to the first human who came up with the idea of Paradise and Hell. I heard it's thought be an Egyptian.

    I think MAB meants charisma and leadership qualities, which I am sure Muhammed had bounds of.
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  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #162 - March 17, 2011, 12:25 AM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 17, 2011, 12:19 AM
    One can't be a member of Allah's gang however and be a materialist.

    But you can be a materialist and believe in a god. We sometimes forget that there are other gods apart from Allah.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #163 - March 17, 2011, 12:37 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 17, 2011, 12:23 AM
    But there is the suggestion that, to leave religion and its claims, one must accept other equivalent claims with the same fervour.


    That's not how I read his argument. My understanding of his argument is that one leaves their religion basically because they're motivated (by self-appeasment) to do so. The point he's making is regarding what initially drives the believer to seek an alternative to his world view is his own desires, regardless of how sound the alternative is.

    In other words, even if materialism was 100% perfect, Bison argues that what drives believers to even consider materialism is that they want a reason, a justification, to leave their religion. Bison's (apparent) emphasis on the imperfection of materialism is only meant to reinforce his argument, but it's not really a part of it.  
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #164 - March 17, 2011, 12:42 AM
    edit
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #165 - March 17, 2011, 12:48 AM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 17, 2011, 12:11 AM
    Not sure that's what I said. I make exceptions for subjects which have no bearing one one's life a la the hard sciences. Even though in there we are not completey free from wishful thinking. No, I confine my conception of human motives  strictly to politics, morality and metaphysics. Areas of contention. Speaking theoretically, I will not deny that a man cannot anatomise an idea and accept it's logical validity. As in my example I think capital punishment is a valid punitive measure. What is proven correct by the operations of the mind however is not what will be admitted by a man's temperament. Things which men accept are the things which they favour. I could of course change my mind and support the death penalty for the sake of upholding what is correct, but that is to get things upside down. No man does anything  however rational if it makes him unhappy. The inner voice must be contented.



    Quote
    I would not define benefit so narrowly as the free marketeers. By contenting one's inner self I mean that we can make room also for suffering physical privations in order to soothe one's conscience. Picture the scene: A man is trudging home on a bitingly cold winter night. It is snowing and his limbs are frozen when he sees a bus approaching. Just as he is about to hail the bus down he catches sight of an old homeless woman shivering in the cold. He has only enough money for his bus fare. The sight of the poor old wretch however devours his internal organs with  pity and although he is pained by the cold he gives up his bus fare to feed the homeless woman and continues to trudge home in the bitter cold. What we have here is a man whose physical discomfit is exceeded by the pang of his conscience. Without succouring the old wretch he might not have slept a wink. So he buys a salve for his burning conscience and a restful night's sleep with a few pennies and the inner master is contented.


    This still isn't any different than the Austrian definition that people act in their own benefit even when it is perceived not to be.  In your example the man placed the benefits of helping another human being in a higher cardinal order than his own wants.  This isn't "emotion" in the sense you were talking about earlier, but "purposefulness".

    If you want to say all action, even moral action is purposeful then I agree, but if you want to say all action is emotional and then logical ( or mostly emotional and sometimes logical).  I disagree.  
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #166 - March 17, 2011, 12:49 AM
    @ Bison

    Quote
    I've always been firmly convinced that far from being an ugly person as the godless witlessly think that Mo was a man of impressive mental powers. To claim that he simply pilfered ideas from others is to miss the fact that he embellished the torments of the fire that never endeth. Said that you would be gang raped by thirty devils in Jahannam till your exit hole was so wide through which one could drive a coach and three horses. I'm persuaded that not only was he an accomplsihed psychologist but that he was also an atheist.


    I agree. If Muhammed was an imposter, then he most certainly was an atheist. Otherwise, he couldn't be so bold as to persistently deny the gods he believed in, the right of worship.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #167 - March 17, 2011, 12:49 AM
    a
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #168 - March 17, 2011, 12:55 AM
    Quote from: debunker on March 17, 2011, 12:37 AM
    That's not how I read his argument. My understanding of his argument is that one leaves their religion basically because they're motivated (by self-appeasment) to do so. The point he's making is regarding what initially drives the believer to seek an alternative to his world view is his own desires, regardless of how sound the alternative is.

    But what about those who trade a debunked belief for a stark reality? It isn't self-appeasing in many cases, to be proven wrong about a comforting belief, and begrudgingly accept facts about the universe. To me the universe is beautiful, but there is terror there too. And look how many ex-Muslims are struggling to come to terms with a finite existence, preferring existence when they believed in Heaven. Some people just have the rug completely pulled from under them. This kind of thing can make you sucidal.

    Sometimes we don’t believe because we want to believe, but believe because that's just how it is. That's how the universe rolls. Simply wanting something to be the case doesn’t make it a reality. We can’t define things into existence. And reality can sometimes just kick you in the face and put you on your arse when you least expect it. Not everyone has the luxury of shopping around for belief best suited for them.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #169 - March 17, 2011, 12:57 AM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 17, 2011, 12:49 AM
    Materialism negates the supernatural. It is the idea that only physical reality exists.

    I know what materialism is. It still doesn't rule out a god.

    Mormons believe that Elohim was once mortal, and now lives on a star, and that they will become gods themselves and rule their own planet when their mortal body expires, for example.

    Not to mention the many religions - atheistic, pantheistic, etc - who believe ‘all is god’.

    Not to mention the many individual religious people and apologists of all sects and creeds, who are desperately trying to reconcile old ideas of god with emergent sciences and a materialistic universal model.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #170 - March 17, 2011, 01:02 AM
    s
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #171 - March 17, 2011, 01:08 AM
    Quote from: debunker on March 17, 2011, 12:49 AM
    @ Bison

    I agree. If Muhammed was an imposter, then he most certainly was an atheist. Otherwise, he couldn't be so bold as to persistently deny the gods he believed in, the right of worship.

    PM me know your address in Saudi Arabia, I want to send you a t-shirt with your "Muhammed was an Atheist"  quote
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  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #172 - March 17, 2011, 01:12 AM
    Quote from: debunker on March 17, 2011, 12:49 AM
    @ Bison

    I agree. If Muhammed was an imposter, then he most certainly was an atheist. Otherwise, he couldn't be so bold as to persistently deny the gods he believed in, the right of worship.

    I think he was an imposter, but he wasnt an atheist.  I think he genuinely believed in monotheism, which he learned from his grandfather at an early age, an Arab supremacist who was driven by a love for God & a desire to unite Arabia.
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  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #173 - March 17, 2011, 01:14 AM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 17, 2011, 01:02 AM
    No, you misunderstand. The man was not helping another person. He was helping himself. The loose change that he gave to the woman was to salve his conscience. After giving away his bus fare he felt immediately better. He's gratified himself. The benefit to the woman is secondary to his emotional needs. There's no such thing as altruism.  The pang of conscience excercised a greater power on his consciousness than enduring the bitterness of the cold. Everything which men do is to gratify their spirit.

    If the propelling impulse of men is not their emotional make-up I invite you to explain which of your convictions you dislike.



    Quote
    Economics is a science of human exchanges. In order to understand exchanges themselves, we must look at the purpose of the exchange. Modern micro classes do just this. They posit that 1) People are rational, 2)People respond to financial incentives, and so on. It’s necessary to look at the logic of the action people are making in order to make sense of the exchanges at all.

    All I posit (and all I ever have), is that people make decisions that they believe will increase their satisfaction more than anything else at that given time. Taken strictly, this means that we have purposeful action towards our most valued goals. It’s inconceivable to think we would act towards our second or third most valued goals. For tautological reasons, every decision we make is the most-utility producing. In hindsight, perhaps, we may wish we had chosen differently, but given our current knowledge and our current utility scale, every decision is optimal.


    The title of the essay

    Why Austrian economics is the correct path.  

    http://www.economicthought.net/2010/09/why-austrian-economics-follows-the-correct-path/

    Congrats you're an Austrian ( or a behavioral economist) now.  
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #174 - March 17, 2011, 01:15 AM
    a
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #175 - March 17, 2011, 01:24 AM
    I'm just saying, there isn't just one kind of god. If you want to focus on the Abrahamic god, then yes, materialism can sensibly be ruled out.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #176 - March 17, 2011, 01:24 AM
    @ Ishina

    Quote
    But what about those who trade a debunked belief for a stark reality?

    I do believe those exist, and perhaps they’re even the majority (I couldn’t tell). In fact, I had a Pakistani friend who became an apostate in 2 weeks only, after he accidentally ventured into a web site about materialism. He left Islam and he never looked back… He was not even bitter about it or angry at his former religion. He even believed Muhammed was a wise leader who lied for the greater good in harsh times.

    Quote
    It isn't self-appeasing in many cases, to be proven wrong about a comforting belief, and begrudgingly accept facts about the universe. To me the universe is beautiful, but there is terror there too. And look how many ex-Muslims are struggling to come to terms with a finite existence, preferring existence when they believed in Heaven. Some people just have the rug completely pulled from under them. This kind of thing can make you sucidal.

    True, but on the other hand, this particular argument of Bison’s could be true for some cases too:

    We all know that the distant promise of bliss is not as compelling a drive as the demands of the present. We know that we should put away more money for a rainy day, that we should excercise more than we do, that we should not drink so much, but the future promise of well-being is not as compelling a motive for action than the momentary to momemtary impulse. And I do not speak of merely Islam.


    Quote
    Sometimes we don’t believe because we want to believe, but believe because that's just how it is. That's how the universe rolls. Simply wanting something to be the case doesn’t make it a reality. We can’t define things into existence. And reality can sometimes just kick you in the face and put you on your arse when you least expect it. Not everyone has the luxury of shopping around for belief best suited for them.

    That too is very plausible.

    I guess Bison is a bit guilty of being too fond of his arguments, he defends them so vigorously, he sounds like he’s so conceited as to think his arguments are so perfect they leave no space for the plausibility of others’ arguments, but what else would you expect from a charging bison?

    In any case, we have to give Bison the credit for bringing new challenging ideas to the table. I think he’s the sort of man who likes to challenge people’s firmly held beliefs, and shake them like a bison… perhaps if we had a few towelheads in this forum, he wouldn’t have locked horns (at least not as frequently) with his fellow non-believers.   
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #177 - March 17, 2011, 01:24 AM
    w
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #178 - March 17, 2011, 01:29 AM
    Quote from: debunker on March 17, 2011, 01:24 AM
    In any case, we have to give Bison the credit for bringing new challenging ideas to the table. I think he’s the sort of man who likes to challenge people’s firmly held beliefs, and shake them like a bison… perhaps if we had a few towelheads in this forum, he wouldn’t have locked horns (at least not as frequently) with his fellow non-believers. 


    Oh I wouldn't have it any other way. He's one of the biggest contributers here. It's no chore to pick his brain. I might even learn a thing or two.

    Shhh... he's back.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
     Reply #179 - March 17, 2011, 01:32 AM
    I'm not questioning your knowledge of Austrian economics.  I am sure you know more about it than I do.  I am saying that when you say emotional your are saying purposeful in the sense that the Austrians use it.  For instance, I despise the Westboro Baptist Church, I hate them, their message, and anything they stand for, but I understand that based on the idea that all ideas should be heard and not silenced that they should not be stifled.  Now which of these two conflicting issues would seem to be more "emotional"? Obviously the first, but which one takes precedence? The second.  This is more easily explained by purposefulness than by logic being a window dressing for emotion.  

    And Austrians don't stress selfishness is a virtue ( you're thinking of Randian Objectivists?), they stress that forced altruism is anything but selflessness, but it is unimportant.  
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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