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 Topic: Intervention in Libya?

 (Read 18677 times)
  • 12 3 ... 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Intervention in Libya?
     OP - March 19, 2011, 01:56 PM

    I can't decide whether I support it or whether I'm against it.

    1) There are talks of the U.S 'arming' the rebels. Can't that lead to the same thing as afghanistan where U.S armed the taliban and created al qaida?

    2) Who are the rebels, are they really people looking for democracy and a civil society as in Egypt, or radicals that could create more terrorist attacks across the world if they come into power?

    3) How much truth is in the statement that U.S/NATO didn't get involved in many other countries where civilian lives are also being threatened, but its doing so now in Libya because of the oil?

    4) Some of Obama's statements seem a bit contradictory, e.g he says 'America is "not going to use force to go beyond a well-defined goal, Specifically, the protection of civilians in Libya."' but then its clear that they are going to go further by bombing Gaddafi's forces and/or arming the rebels.
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #1 - March 19, 2011, 03:46 PM

    There was a good comic strip the other day in the paper, among the lines of:
    Best seller in the US: Where's Walley
    Best seller in Libya: Where's Obama

    .... and I guess it's not an original



    I'm starting to dislike Obama more and more ... but enough to disprove of him. You can clearly see he's swaying side to side ... trying to be nice, trying to please everyone ... but he knows he can't be ... it's a tight rope. He should be more hard headed like Cameron, and when Cameron beats him to fly into Egypt first, you know Obama isn't being as decisive as he could be for the leader of the most successful nation this planet has ever seen.
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #2 - March 19, 2011, 08:06 PM

    .
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #3 - March 19, 2011, 08:51 PM

    MAB, you have some good points. Like I said I haven't formed an opinion about whether I support this involvement or not, but there are a few points that should be considered in response to what you said.

    1) In Bahrain and Yemen, the people haven't called for armed intervention and help from the rest of the world, whereas in Libya there's been clear demands from the rebels where they've asked for intervention.

    2) Even the arab league is in support of the intervention in Libya, from what I've heard Qatar and UAE will be participating. They were against it at first.

    3) The following statement;
    The United States is not the armed wing of Amnesty International. It is a self-interested empire like every other with imperial ambitions.

    The U.S has in the past taken part in peacekeeping missions from which were only for peacekeeping. Examples:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_intervention_in_Bosnia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Restore_Hope

    There may be others as well.

    I know that the U.S has had some fucked up leaders like Bush and Nixon, and essentially most republican presidents have been war mongeres. However the benefit of doubt should be given to the Obama administration.

    In the case of Libya, I'm simply not sure what the intentions are. If someone answers the questions I asked in the OP, I'll be able to make a more informed opinion. Tongue
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #4 - March 19, 2011, 08:56 PM

    Why aren't tomahawk missiles being used against Bahraini and Saudi security forces? Both of whom are guilty of attack civilians in Bahrain! I mean the US navy fifth fleet isn't that far away  whistling2
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #5 - March 19, 2011, 09:04 PM

    I've answered that in point # 1 of my post above.
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #6 - March 19, 2011, 09:09 PM

    Why aren't tomahawk missiles being used against Bahraini and Saudi security forces? Both of whom are guilty of attack civilians in Bahrain! I mean the US navy fifth fleet isn't that far away  whistling2

    Among other things probably because there doesn't exist a UN declaration with backing of Arab League that would legitimize such an operation?  whistling2
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #7 - March 19, 2011, 09:22 PM

    The spectre of military humanism stirs anew. America’s devotion to liberty proves as sincerely felt as the enthusiasm of a prostitute on her tenth client of the night. The man who can bring himself to believe that the same White House gang that backed Mubarak to the bitter end as he mowed down hundreds of Egyptians is now tearing its hair out with abject worry about the welfare of the poor widdle things in Libya, who can imagine that the administration which stands by the despots in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia is now suddenly hot for democracy has my deep admiration. Such a leap of faith is impressive. But some of us cheap barroom cynics like to salt our politics with evidence.

    The fact remains that every foray into militarism is couched in soothing benevolent terms. To help the poor benighted natives, to export democracy, to civilise the barbarians. Every single one. That’s standard interventionist rhetoric. Nothing to be marvelled at. Got to dig deeper. The United States is not the armed wing of Amnesty International. It is a self-interested empire like every other with imperial ambitions. A successful NATO strike against Gaddafi will serve only to rekindle the dying embers of the discredited idea of humanitarian interventionism at a historical juncture when it’s been roundly disgraced in Eye-raq and Afghanistan. Polls show that approval ratings for the wars are low. What a better way of rehabilitating the credibility of NATO than a quick painless war against a very weak power. Bam! And up soar the polls. Everybody likes a winning war. No, keep us the hell out. By all means give arms to the rebels (about whom we know little it should be noted) and freeze the assets of Gaddafi. But no foreign entanglements. This ain’t about Libya. It’s about the health of military humanism. 

    I’m just a country boy who is intellectually barefoot but can someone tell me why it is that NATO, an alliance formed ostensibly to battle a now defunct enemy, is still around if not for aggressive war-making? By whom is Europe menaced after the collapse of the Soviet Union (if at all it ever was)? Sez me: Disband the international criminal syndicate NATO. Beyond the Cold War its sole mission has been to provide an international fig leaf for Uncle Sam’s perpetual war for perpetual peace. Plague take it!  The Europeans can protect themselves perfectly on their own. Gaddafi is no better or worse a tyrant than a dozen other despots whom the US enthusiastically backs. Unluckily for the ol’ playboy his relations with Sam have not been as smooth as other more plaint dick-tators. Lesson of the day kids: JustSayNo2War.


    i am officially in loooooove!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #8 - March 19, 2011, 09:28 PM

    Among other things probably because there doesn't exist a UN declaration with backing of Arab League that would legitimize such an operation?  whistling2


    Are you trying to imply that all military action taken by the US has been authorised by the UN and arab league?  Cheesy
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #9 - March 19, 2011, 09:28 PM

    I wish this fatty didn't have me on ignore.
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #10 - March 19, 2011, 09:33 PM

    Are you trying to imply that all military action taken by the US has been authorised by the UN and arab league?  Cheesy

    In Libya? Yes.  Cheesy

    You did happen to notice that this topic is about Libya did you?
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #11 - March 19, 2011, 09:34 PM

    .
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #12 - March 19, 2011, 09:39 PM

    In Libya? Yes.  Cheesy

    You did happen to notice that this topic is about Libya did you?


    My point was about the US/NATO justification for intervening which is gaddafi attacking his own civilians, which is no different than to what is happening in Yemen or Bahrain.
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #13 - March 19, 2011, 09:45 PM

    My point was about the US/NATO justification for intervening which is gaddafi attacking his own civilians, which is no different than to what is happening in Yemen or Bahrain.

    The justification is completely irrelevant and as MAB explained is as far as interests of US/France/UK and others are concerned not the primary reason for intervention. What is relevant though is that military intervention has backing of UN, the Arab League (which is unprecedented, they are after all backing a military action against their own member) and is therefore both legal and legitimate.
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #14 - March 19, 2011, 09:48 PM

    It's a charmingly written book chronicling fifty years of American gangsterism abroad and at home.

    No surprise there, the republican party of the U.S is a war mongering party, I'm well aware of that & agree. But at this point we're discussing only the motives behind the present libyan conflict.

    I don't blame the rebels for seeking military support.

    Its not just the rebels. Its also the ordinary citizens of Benghazi. The guardian posted an appeal for help article from a female doctor in benghazi the other day.

    By all means give them arms

    Actually, I'm against the idea of arming the rebels, I would rather air strikes be used. Rebels were armed in afghanistan and that led to the creation of the taliban, after that I'm not sure arming any other insurgents would be a good idea..

    but what makes you think that Precedent Obama who would not even say a bad word about Mubarak as he killed with abandon cares about Libyans?

    I believe you're being a bit unfair. Yes, he was silent about it for the first few days of the protest, but you don't realistically expect him to start immediately speaking out against a former ally as soon as a protest starts? In Egypt there were a lot of complications, e.g with Israel. Its more likely because of these complications that Obama was initially reserved, rather than the fact that he 'didn't care about the civilians'.

    Also, he did come out strongly in support of the protestors and against Mubarrak mid way during the protests.

    Most of these Arab autocrats were secretly lobbying America to bomb Eye-ran. Should we cluster bomb the Iranians too?

    Of course not, however if it got as bad as it is in Libya where there's a possibility of genocide, and the civilians are openly calling for assistance, I think 'help should be given to those who ask for it'.

    Did you know that at same time as the US was making barking noises at Yugoslavia's ethnic cleansing it was aiding the Indonesian genocide against East Timor which killed far more than the Serbs ever did in Bosnia or that the US was selling arms to Turkey to assist in its campaign to kill thirty thousand Kurds in south eathern Turkey? The US has no interest in saving anybody. It's an imperial empire with its own rapacious interests at heart.

    I did not know that, and I find that a bit difficult to believe. Is there any evidence that U.S aided these groups, or is that just a conspiracy theory?

    The intentions in Libya are no different from the intentions of all US missions: To secure the geopolitical interests of Uncle Sam primarily. Look between the covers of William Blum's Rouge State and tell me if you still think America wants to promote freedom.

    Good question and something to think about. What if those interests they want to promote include freedom, including religious freedom?
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #15 - March 19, 2011, 09:52 PM

    My point was about the US/NATO justification for intervening which is gaddafi attacking his own civilians, which is no different than to what is happening in Yemen or Bahrain.

    It is very different. Firstly, the scale of civilian casualties is a lot lower, secondly, its the people of Libya who have asked for intervention whereas Bahrain and Yemen/Saudia have made no such demands. Someone point that out to her?
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #16 - March 19, 2011, 09:58 PM

    My point was about the US/NATO justification for intervening which is gaddafi attacking his own civilians, which is no different than to what is happening in Yemen or Bahrain.

    "It is very different. Firstly, the scale of civilian casualties is a lot lower, secondly, its the people of Libya who have asked for intervention whereas Libya and Yemen have made no such demands.
    In Bahrain and Yemen, the people haven't called for armed intervention and help from the rest of the world, whereas in Libya there's been clear demands from the rebels where they've asked for intervention."

                quotes by donatelo
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #17 - March 19, 2011, 10:05 PM

    I had a typo in there, fixed it.. see the bolded part of my post. Could you update?
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #18 - March 19, 2011, 10:29 PM

    It is very different. Firstly, the scale of civilian casualties is a lot lower, secondly, its the people of Libya who have asked for intervention whereas Bahrain and Yemen/Saudia have made no such demands. Someone point that out to her?


    The people of Bahrain have taken the protests to the US embassy ASKING the US to support their rights:

    Quote
    MANAMA (AFP) - Pro-democracy activists protested at the US embassy in Bahrain on Monday, calling for Washington to press the authorities for democratic reform after weeks of demonstrations.


    Quote
    A letter given to Hood by 27-year-old activist Zainab al-Khawaja called for "the American administration (to) refrain from taking negative positions that contribute to the oppression and abuse of the people" of Bahrain.


    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110307/wl_mideast_afp/bahrainpoliticsunrestus_20110307180421

    This request for help/support has been clearly ignored:

    Quote
    (Reuters) - The United States does not consider the entry into Bahrain of Saudi Arabian security forces an invasion, the White House said on Monday.

    Sunni-ruled Saudi Arabia sent about 1,000 troops into Bahrain to protect government facilities after mainly Shi'ite protesters overran police and blocked roads.


    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/us-bahrain-usa-invasion-idUSTRE72D6RB20110314

  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #19 - March 19, 2011, 10:36 PM

    They have clearly asked for the following;

    Quote
    press the authorities for democratic reform


    They have clearly not asked for military intervention of any kind.

    Washington has clearly responded to their requests:

    Quote
    U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called on Bahrain on Saturday to allow its people to demonstrate peacefully as opposition members reported the death of a fifth protester this week.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/19/bahrain.unrest/index.html?iref=allsearch

    Quote
    The U.S. State Department Friday called on Bahraini security forces to cease violence and protesters to "engage peacefully and responsibly."
    "As we have previously noted, a solution to Bahrain's problems will not be found through security measures," said State Department spokesman Mark Toner. "We reiterate our call for a peaceful and broadly inclusive political dialogue."


    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/18/government.crackdowns/index.html?iref=allsearch

    And as for whether or not they 'consider' the security forces to be an invasion, what's your point? Clearly its not an invasion, the government of bahrain invited those forces in. It would be an invasion if they attacked without the government's consent.
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #20 - March 19, 2011, 10:43 PM

    I wish this fatty didn't have me on ignore.


    y u mad tho?
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #21 - March 19, 2011, 10:47 PM

    They have clearly asked for the following;

    They have clearly not asked for military intervention of any kind.

    Washington has clearly responded to their requests:
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/19/bahrain.unrest/index.html?iref=allsearch

    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/18/government.crackdowns/index.html?iref=allsearch

    And as for whether or not they 'consider' the security forces to be an invasion, what's your point? Clearly its not an invasion, the government of bahrain invited those forces in. It would be an invasion if they attacked without the government's consent.


    And you really believe the shit spewed out by Hillary Clinton? Wouldn't be surprised tbh, you did once say:

    CIA has never killed a civilian in Pakistan


    You CANNOT support the call for democracy whilst ARMING the forces who prevent people calling for democracy. I mean, where do you think these people get their weapons from?

    I won't respond to any more pro-US rubbish.

    *yawns*
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #22 - March 19, 2011, 10:58 PM

    f the most successful nation this planet has ever seen.


    What are you basing that on?  Huh?
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #23 - March 19, 2011, 11:07 PM


    He should be more hard headed like Cameron, and when Cameron beats him to fly into Egypt first


  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #24 - March 19, 2011, 11:12 PM

     
    And you really believe the shit spewed out by Hillary Clinton?

    Its not about me believing it, you posted that bahrainis were calling for US to pressure their government, I've posted quotes from US admin doing just that. Do I really have to break down everything to the simplest possible words so you can understand it?

    Wouldn't be surprised tbh, you did once say:

    Quote mining is all you know how to do, you did that in your last post about the 'invasion' and now you're doing it again, even though you know quite well that my point was: The U.S has never intentionally killed a civilian in Pakistan. As in: it hasn't sent anyone to a crowded market to blow up himself and kill civilians, which is a favorite of the taliban, for whom you harbor sympathies. Get it now?

    You CANNOT support the call for democracy whilst ARMING the forces who prevent people calling for democracy. I mean, where do you think these people get their weapons from?

    So you're suggesting that U.S is giving gadhafi his weapons right now while it blows up his air defences?

    I won't respond to any more pro-US rubbish.

    *yawns*

    Typical, you run away/leave the argument when its shown how clownish your ideas are, just as you ignore the posters that know your B.S and call you out on it.
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #25 - March 19, 2011, 11:18 PM

    backing of UN, the Arab League (which is unprecedented, they are after all backing a military action against their own member)

    I never quite understood why the Arab league backed military action, although I have posted why I think they did.  Whats your opinion?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #26 - March 19, 2011, 11:25 PM


    Whatever RIBS feels about it, thats my stance.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #27 - March 19, 2011, 11:26 PM

    I never quite understood why the Arab league backed military action, although I have posted why I think they did.  Whats your opinion?


    Its bcoz a) he never got on with the saudis and others maybe and b) didn't believe in the 'peace' process between the israelis and palestinians.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the arab league backs action against the Syrian regime, there have been protests there recently.
  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #28 - March 19, 2011, 11:26 PM


  • Re: U.S Involvement in Libya?
     Reply #29 - March 19, 2011, 11:28 PM

    Its bcoz a) he never got on with the saudis and others maybe and b) didn't believe in the 'peace' process between the israelis and palestinians.

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