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Theme Changer

 Topic: Intervention in Libya?

 (Read 18570 times)
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  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #120 - March 22, 2011, 02:49 AM

    again. Please answer my question.
    The Congo in not about tribes. It's about the Western demand for blood diamonds in which competing factions vie for control of who gets to do business. It can easily be stopped. If the priority is saving innocent lives, why not intervene in  a conflict which has killed four million? Answer: No moral component in the US empire.

    Now we are talking., MAB is indeed a vegetarian but acts like Cannibal in CEMB

    So  What are  the goals  of France, Britain, US of A attacking Libyan  Gadhafi? ( we are NOT talking about No Fly Zones but actively  bombarding his home)

    Quote
    Quote
    U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates says it would be "unwise" to have coalition forces try to kill Gadhafi because "it's not part of the U.N. mandate." Meanwhile, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says that the main goal is to stop Gadhafi's forces from killing his own people in response to an uprising against his regime, and that a second priority is negotiations in which "it would have to be the decision by Col. Gadhafi to leave."

    President Obama said Monday that Gadhafi "needs to go" but acknowledged the Libyan leader could stay in power because the coalition's main goal is to protect Libyan citizens.

    Quote
    British Defense Secretary Liam Fox says Gadhafi is a legitimate target for allied forces. But even though Gadhafi's residential compound was among the sites targeted by Tomahawk missiles,.

    British Prime Minister David Cameron said Monday that "Libya needs to get rid of Gadhafi" but that "we are responsible for trying to enforce this Security Council resolution. The Libyans must choose their own future.

    "

    Quote
    adviser to President Nicolas Sarkozy said western air strikes in Libya were likely to last "a while yet," but it was up to Libyans and not the international community to decide what course the country takes.

    Henri Guaino, one of Sarkozy's closest aides, said the U.N.-mandated coalition's strikes against Libyan targets were not aimed at ousting Gaddafi.

    "That's not in the United Nations mandate. ..


    "It's not up to the international community to decide the fate of the Libyans," he added. "


    Everybody appears to have  secondary aim of Colonel Gaddafi's departure.  and That .. that sexual predator from Italy  guy is looking for evading the loan that  Colonel Gaddafi. He  would love to see dead Gaddafi.

    So what are the goals of west??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #121 - March 22, 2011, 02:52 AM

    It has not gone unnoticed also that Precedent Obama tried to block the first democratically elected leader of Haiti whom the United states overthrew twice, the last time being in 2004, from entering his own country. Why does the American Redeemer hate democracy?

    And here is the former head of the CIA to whom the liberal interventionists trust Libya boasting about having toppled Chile's democratic leader Salvador Allende and installing the vicious military junta of Pinochet who was indicted for war crimes:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNgCyDsvi84





    DID NOT KNOW THAT WILL STUDY IMMEDIATELY.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #122 - March 22, 2011, 02:58 AM

    .
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #123 - March 22, 2011, 03:00 AM

    Let me suggest that you leave politics to people who do.


    Don't be silly.  I never claimed knowledge of the Kosovo conflict.  I would rather be an honest ignorant man than a hypocrite that claims all knowlege.  I defer to those who know better such as Chomsky.

    Quote
    On display here is a colossal ignorance of modern history. The Kurds were resisting decades long Turkish oppression in the southeast in which extra-judicial killings and torture were common. In the nineties when Turkey orchestrated a violent campaign against the whole population with a vastly greater intensity and scale than Saddam Hussein the United States poured military hardware into the hands of the Turkish generals. Civilians were butchered with the same callous abandon as in Iraq. Moreover, the United States did not impose the no-fly-zone in response to Saddam's gassing of the Kurds. He was still a useful ally enough for the US to help him invade Iran. The sanctions came only when he fell out with the US and moved to conquer Kuwait.


    None of this changes what I said.  The US created a space for the Northern Kurds because Saddam was massacring them.  This space was created by putting US military lives at risk in order to give the Northern Iraqi Kurds a space to breath.  The US has not acted in a constant fashion towards the rights of the Kurds of self determination. Conceded.  The US acted out of ignorance of Saddam's power after the first Gulf War.  Conceded.  

    Quote
    I note that you've carefully elided East Timor again. Please answer my question.


    I have no clue what you are asking here.  

    Quote
    The Congo in not about tribes. It's about the Western demand for blood diamonds in which competing factions vie for control of who gets to do business. It can easily be stopped. If the priority is saving innocent lives, why not intervene in  a conflict which has killed four million? Answer: No moral component in the US empire.

     The answer of course is not so clear here.  Who should the US back to restore calm to the region? The answer of course is no one because all parties involved are equally culpable.  Should the US somehow be more responsible in MAB's eyes.  Yes of course.  Conceded.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #124 - March 22, 2011, 03:18 AM

    .
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #125 - March 22, 2011, 03:21 AM

    .
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #126 - March 22, 2011, 03:46 AM

    Quote
    If by your own admission you are as clueless about modern history as a brain dead pond life, why challenge someone who isn't? Come now my sweet, leave it to your betters.


    The Kosovo conflict isn't the totality of modern history.  

    Quote
    The US did not act ignorantly. It supplied him the WMDs with which he gassed the Kurds and Iranians (about which not much is said for obvious reasons) in the full knowledge that he was a gangster who slaughtered opponents with the enthusiasm of Crusaders sacking Jerusalem. A million people were killed by the Iran-Iraq war which Saddam fought at the behest of Freedom's Land. If you think the United States suddenly had a fit of conscience after their favourite gangster killed just a few thousand Kurds you can do something I cannot.


    lol.  You don't get it.  I didn't say that the US is some altruistic moral being whose every action is dictated by human rights.  I said that human rights are a mediator in the US's affairs but not a central aspect.  In that sense, yes I hold to the conclusion that the US did create a space for the Kurds of the north to return from starvation based on * gasp* humanitarian motives.  This isn't to say that the US's role in Iraq as been strictly humanitarian, in every sense this is not true, but there has been humanitarian motives lurking somewhere in there.  

    Quote
    I asked why the United States funneled weapons to Suharto in his genocidal campaign against East Timor if it's animated by humanitarianism. This happened at the same time as the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo about which it feigned concern. Kindly answer my question.


    Did I ever say that is was animated by humanitarianism? I bet I didn't.  The US did intervene but only after Muslims who were supported by the US started committing genocide against the Christians.

     
    Quote
    It should have terminated its own role by forbidding US companies to do business with mass killers and done precisely what it does when oil is involved and bombed the belligerents who compiled a death toll of four million souls. Not a few thousand like Gaddafi (if that), but four million. But this assumes that the Pentagon is the armed wing of Amnesty International. The Pentagon is the armed wing of American corporations.


    Really? That is cute.  MAB going to terminate a whole industry, well multiple industries with multiple ties to various industries.  Fine by me.  That still doesn't resolve the conflict of how the US would have solved the Congo crisis, and I imagine you don't have a solution only moral bitching about the US and how it shouldn't take part in blood stained industries. Conceded.  Let the Chinese deal with the moral quandaries that MAB doesn't want to deal with. 


    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #127 - March 22, 2011, 04:03 AM

    .
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #128 - March 22, 2011, 04:16 AM

    Quote
    So the US instigated a war between Iraq and Iran that killed a million people, gave Saddam WMDs in the full knowledge that he was a torturing, raping, killing gangster but all of a sudden began running around and tearing its hair out with anguish when he killed a few thousand Kurds? Fascinating.


    Yea, I know.  " You can trust Americans to do the right thing, after every other possibility has been exhausted" - Churchill

    Quote
    Nobody denies that the US did intervene in East Timor. By supplying arms shipments to the mass killer Suharto who snuffed out nearly a million Indonesian peasants and proceeded to conquer a sovereign nation with the active permission of President Ford and Kissinger and committ the worst act of genocide proportional to population since the Holocaust. That's how the US intervened. I will ask you again: If concern for innocent lives is a factor in US foreign policy why enable genocide?


    Well Kissinger should be your first clue that human lives didn't play a central role in the decision. 

    Quote
    Look at this donkey. Are you seriously contending that the profits of multinationals involved with mass murderers are of more value than the lives of four million souls? If so, tell me no lies about humanitarian concern. I told you precisely what the US could do to end the worst conflict in the world if it was genuinely driven by saving lies . Pressure the warring sides whom the United States could defeat in a week to put down their weapons and stop compiling dead bodies. When Saddam invaded Kuwait the US reaction was swift. But here not a peep. Why the different reactions? Because the one involves economic interests and the other does not. Ditto Libya.


    Again.  No one is saying that a human life is the metric by which US foreign policy is measured.  This seems to be a constant straw man of which I persistently acknowledge time and time again.  Humanitarian missions are not the central focus of the US's mission, that is self interest ( duh), but humanitarian mission DO play a mediating role in US's action.  This isn't an advocacy of US's action, but an acknowledgement of the influences that act on the US's ( if the totality of the US's actions can be attributed to a human being)   



    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #129 - March 22, 2011, 04:37 AM

    /
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #130 - March 22, 2011, 08:02 AM

    As I've explained before over and over again, the average foot soldier fighting NATO does NOT care about imposing taliban law or protecting osama, all he cares about is his country being independent and not having to fear his children becoming 'collateral damage'!!!! 

    Bullshit. Where do you get these fantasies from? Have you ever even spoken to a pashtun? This is all being done in the name of jihad.
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #131 - March 22, 2011, 10:27 AM

    The bombing of Yugoslavia might have been an excercise in humanitarianism if the United States was not actively bolstering genocide many orders of magnitude worse in East Timor at the exact same time that it was professing concern for Bosnians and Kosovars, if the US was not shipping vast quantities of arms to aid the Turkish campaign against Kurds that killed many more than Serbs ever did.

    If you think the United States bombed Yugoslavia to save human life, you will have to explain why it was giving military and diplomatic cover to Suharto and the Turkish generals at the exact same moment. Only the politically innocent would believe that America remotely cares about anything except narrowly defined geopolitical interests.

    Who said anything about NATO intervention in Bosnia or in Kosovo being an exercise in humanitarianism? If you recall a similar exchange we had in another thread about the same issue I clearly stated that the reason why NATO intervened was primarily motivated by the desire to maintain force projection.

    NATO, US and EU became entangled into the whole mess and simply had to act otherwise nobody would have taken them seriously in the future conflicts. On top of that I am perfectly aware of the fact that US, EU and NATO initially supported Milosevic (until after Dayton agreement at the very least), he was hailed as a 'factor of stability' etc. because of his role of subduing Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia (yep, the same ones he previously supported; as soon as they ceased to be useful for him he dropped them instantly).

    What I am claiming though is that the outcome of the intervention in both Bosnia and Kosovo was broadly speaking a positive one.

    In Bosnia NATO destroyed Serbian armour, howitzers, etc and imposed a no fly zone. This enabled Croatian and Bosnian forces to recapture lost territory and force Serbs into negotiations. The end result was the Dayton agreement which ended the war in Bosnia.

    In Kosovo NATO intervention forced Serbia to stop the actions (ethnic cleansing - they were basically trying to remove ethnic Albanians from Kosovo) of its military and paramilitary units in Kosovo and finally withdraw when Milosevic accepted peace conditions thus allowing KFOR to enter the province. The loss of Kosovo was also the breaking point over which the regime of Milosevic finally collapsed.
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #132 - March 23, 2011, 01:54 AM

    .
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #133 - March 23, 2011, 03:24 AM

    p
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #134 - April 17, 2011, 05:55 AM

    Kucinich: Obama Libya War Violates Constitution and UN Resolution

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia3kRC8hVWM&feature=feedu

    "In a child's power to master the multiplication table, there is more sanctity than in all your shouted "amens" and "holy holies" and "hosannas." An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral. And the advance of man's knowledge is a greater miracle than all the sticks" - Henry Drummond
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #135 - April 17, 2011, 05:21 PM

    Seeing as how MAB is not so intellectually lacking to continually miss the point deusvult is making, I can only assume that his continued furious beating of a strawman is simply trolling.

    fuck you
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #136 - April 17, 2011, 05:49 PM

    ...
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #137 - April 17, 2011, 06:07 PM

    The final aftermath in Kosovo was just as as bad as the pre-Nato bombing. The Nato attack claimed 1,500 civilians. Roughly the same number killed by the low intensive civil war which it was supposedly trying to end.

    The aim of the campaign was to force Milosevic into accepting a long term solution for the Kosovo problem.

    Kosovo was basically a full blown apartheid state since 1989 - just before Yugoslavia disintegrated. Small minority that was ethnically Serbian controlled everything and systematically oppressed Kosovan Albanians and even played other Kosovan minorities against Albanians(most notably Gypsies) by giving them small concessions. The first seeds of such a system were sown in the late '70 when police clamped down pro-democratization protest in Kosovo which than continued thorough '80.
     
    The Serbs were open to a diplomatic resolution as manifested by the fact they lobbied to keep the international monitors in Yugoslavia whom the US pulled out. A diplomatic settlement would have spared Yugoslavia the cluster bombing which took so many lives.

    The was no 'Serbian' side as such. Everything was controlled by Milosevic and what he was doing was simply gambling similar to what he used to do in Bosnia - as attested by the fact that on the eve before the bombing campaign started Richard Holbrooke visited Milosevic as a last ditch attempt of trying to secure a peace deal. Milosevic simply thought that he can out bluff just about everybody.


    Btw Libyans do have a sense of humour:

  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #138 - April 17, 2011, 06:22 PM

    I cherish sentences which begin with "Since". Very instructive gauge of the syllogistic powers of my interlocuter.


     Huh? I don't see "since" there.

    Quote
    Owing to the fact I don't know what trolling means, it might serve us well if you just come out with what in my contribution you object to and we'll take it from there Bolshevik. It will be fun. 


    1. Deusvult acknowledges that US foreign policy is primarily motivated by self-interest even in "humanitarian" interventions. He has consistently taken an anti-imperialist position both on this thread and on the forum in general.

    2. However he also acknowledges that even imperialist interventions can be shaped by public opinion and the ideological and ethical concerns of the political powers that be, of which humanitarian concerns can be a component, and that it is therefore simplistic to assert that humanitarian concerns are never at play in US/NATO military interventions.

    3. You keep ignoring this nuanced position and continue to act as if you are arguing with a person who is both (a) asserting that humanitarian concerns are the primary or sole component in these military interventions and (b) is ignoring the self-interest at play in these interventions. In other words you are repeatedly attacking a strawman despite numerous clarifications by deusvult as to his position on the matter.

    fuck you
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #139 - April 17, 2011, 06:32 PM

    q
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #140 - April 17, 2011, 06:38 PM

    It's not lost on me incidentally that we are playing a semantic game when we describe the war alternately as "bombing" and "campaign". Campaign sounds harmless. Yeah man, it's just a harmless campaign like the one against drugs or cancer. Nothing to see here. Here, let me pour you another cup of tea. What's wrong with just accurately describing it as 78 days and night of around the clock bombing? Sheeit.


    Campaign has always referred to a military operation-- that's the origin of the term:

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=campaign

    Also I hope you were being sarcastic about the campaign against drugs being harmless. If not, millions of dead and incarcerated in North and South America seem to argue against it.

    fuck you
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #141 - April 17, 2011, 06:39 PM

    d
    d
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #142 - April 17, 2011, 06:54 PM

    q
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #143 - April 17, 2011, 06:58 PM

    Nevermind, it was silly for me to expect you to stop trolling. You're arguing with someone who's not on this thread. I'll leave you to wrasslin your imaginary strawman foe.

    fuck you
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #144 - April 17, 2011, 07:01 PM


    Is this what you are talking about in the reference above:
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #145 - April 17, 2011, 07:06 PM

    q
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #146 - April 17, 2011, 07:11 PM

    q
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #147 - April 17, 2011, 07:14 PM

    ..
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #148 - April 17, 2011, 07:15 PM

    Cite a conflict driven exclusively by the public unpreceded by relentless propaganda


    Don't need to as neither I nor deusvult ever took a position to the contrary, implicitly or explicitly, as far as I can see, and this is my whole point as to why you are battling a strawman.

    Quote
    and I will stop bad mouthing Comrade Lenin.


    Bad mouth him all you want. I'm not a Leninist nor even a Marxist in the ordinary sense of the term.

    fuck you
  • Re: Intervention in Libya?
     Reply #149 - April 17, 2011, 07:30 PM

    g
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