@ zebde
Because if it's taken to mean 'what you do,' then that means that Allah is the cause of all of people's actions, including their choices. Therefore, absolute determinism is implied, as held by the Jabariyya.
See below.
Well, if you accept that then it follows that other things are no longer under the absolute control of your God. E.g., God gives man the ability to manipulate objects in the physical universe, and so it is man's will that is in control, albeit partially, of those objects.
Ok, hypothetically speaking, if God were to fall asleep, then according to you, the laws through which man can manipulate objects will stay in place and man can keep manipulating these objects. So the universe can keep running, all by itself, because God willed such an autonomous universe, in the first place, except He could intervene whenever He wills it.
But
*WHILE* being autonomous, isn’t the universe simply being
outside of God’s control? Even though it’s His will?
Wait… I guess you’re right in a sense. I think one acceptable way to answer the question I just asked is: No, because WHILE the universe is being autonomous, God’s will is what
keeps it autonomous. It’s not only an initial will, but rather a persistent will for the autonomy of the universe.
Perhaps that’s what you’re actually telling me, but I just couldn’t get it.
So the same could apply in the case of man’s free-will. (hence, the 2 (apparently contradicting consecutive) verses: this is but a reminder, so whoever so pleases could seek a path to God;
yet you cannot will except that God wills).
I see the 'will' example as functioning in much the same way. Man has partial control over that which God has absolute control over.
As with a king, God gives man a certain amount of freedom to do with his will/choice or any physical object in the world as he wills. This is necessarily the case even in Islam, as far as I can tell. It doesn't mean that the ultimate control over that will/object does not reside with God.
See above.
But what else can shape, say, physical and material events if not God's will? Does God then relinquish some control over the physical world to randomness and spontaneity? Does he not control every single even by his own will? And if he does not, then can he be said to have absolute control over what happens in the universe, according to your understanding, if he hands over some control of what happens in the universe to merely material and random forces?
You may only have written one sentence there, but there's a lot to be considered in stating just those ideas. Can it really be the Islamic god if it doesn't cause every single event? Maybe it can, maybe it can't.
Ok, I clearly see the error in my sentence.
That doesn't seem to refute my contention at all.
Think about it. God has very specific attributes, like the desire for praise from his servants, etc. It is entirely possible that God should possess very different attributes; it is not at all logically necessary that his character should be that of the Islamic, or even theistic, god. So of course, this god's actions are shaped entirely by certain intrinsic and logically unnecessary characteristics, this god is bound by its own nature that it did not choose, that it doesn't need to have, and that presumably it cannot control or alter, being changeless, and of course, 'you will find not change in the sunnah of Allah.'
It’s a demand, not a desire. Anyway, let’s consider the attribute of mercy (regardless of what it really means), the Quranic God does say
He ordained mercy on Himself (6:12), for example… ok, let’s carry on.
Given this then, it seems that this god is completely constrained by its own configuration of attributes, which it acts in accordance with and which it cannot control or alter.
You sound like you believe that God, assuming He exists, had His attributes imposed upon Him (somehow) by some external powers… I think we’ve been over something very similar before (a very old thread), and I really couldn’t understand the point you were making (I still don’t), but I think I at least can point out the Mutaziltes belief in this regard (God’s attributes being one with His essence… although probably you rejected their argument as irrelevant since it was originally made to confirm the unity of God).
How can such a god possibly have free will, never mind absolute free will? It is inextricably and inescapably bound to its own fixed character and it acts according to it. It acts just as a human would under complete determinism, with every action ultimately caused by some factor over which the human has no control.
If His character was imposed on Him, then you’d be right, …yeah, I guess you’re referring to the old argument you made in an old thread.
This, by the way, is one of the reasons why I reject your, and the theistic, conception of God. For God to be absolutely free, I contend that it must be more or less entirely amorphous, not bound by any superfluous character trait or traits, from the influence of which it cannot escape.
Well, this word, amorphous, the Mutazilites insist on it, but for apparently different reasons than yours. Obviously, I don’t share their concern (nor understand yours).
I think the Qur'an, in certain places, even points to such a God. But that's another discussion for another time.
That would be interesting. Could you, well, at least mention 3 verses that allude to this? (no need to discuss them for now).
Topic: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.