Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #60 - April 09, 2011, 10:25 PM

Fanks

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #61 - April 09, 2011, 10:33 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 09, 2011, 06:35 PM
Right, but other places with limited arable land (Mongolia per your example) were not as densely populated as the Middle East and North Africa, and lacked the more advanced agriculture of those areas. In fact, I'd have a hard time thinking of any mostly arid environments outside of the Middle East and North Africa that were that densely populated, civilized, and agriculturally-developed in antiquity. When agriculture is limited and a lot of your food comes from hunting and gathering, the odd troop of wild pigs rooting up shit isn't as big of an issue.

Yeah, I get that, same here, though I think lack of arable land is the best theory I've heard.

Seems to be some confusion here. The wild boar ancestor is an omniverous temperate woodland creature that happily changes it's diet to whatever's most readily available on a seasonal basis and is quite willing to scavenge or kill above or below ground as the need arises. Acorns or voles or young deer - it's irrelevant.
They've always been kept on marginal land in Europe - pannage - and until recently never really interacted with other forms of food production. Intensive pig farming changed all that.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #62 - April 09, 2011, 10:34 PM

Quote from: Ephemeral on April 09, 2011, 10:22 PM
Actually now i'm confused about whether it merely contains fats from milk or animal fat itself.

milk is produced in the body of the animal, so milk fat is animal fat, only it is infinitely more delicious than the disgusting muscular/visceral/subcutaneous fat.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #63 - April 09, 2011, 10:39 PM

debunker, you will never experience the bounties of this universe until you have tasted bacon and pork sausages. Make that your aim after you've lost your virginity.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #64 - April 09, 2011, 10:42 PM

Quote from: billy on April 09, 2011, 10:39 PM
debunker, you will never experience the bounties of this universe until you have tasted bacon and pork sausages. Make that your aim after you've lost your virginity.

Or during!

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #65 - April 09, 2011, 10:44 PM

@ Debunker: Milk is a product of the fat of a female mammal. For instance, the fat that a Human female carries on her thighs and hips is there to provide breast-feeding milk for babies. It's the same in other mammals. If it's any consolation, Inuits will eat any amount of fat from a fresh killed animal but think that drinking the milk or milk products of another species is disgusting. It's all in the mind.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #66 - April 09, 2011, 10:45 PM

@ billy

actually i did once eat some ham (or pork?). It was some sort of a pasta salad, and i thought the white chunks of meat was chicken... but the taste was so horrible, i had doubts about the meat i was eating... so i asked about it and they told me it was ham. i just left and never looked back

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #67 - April 09, 2011, 10:49 PM

If it was white it might have been pork or turkey. Ham is red.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #68 - April 09, 2011, 10:50 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 09, 2011, 05:12 PM
That's not obvious to me. Can you demonstrate unconsciousness is more rapid in decapitation than rapid exsanguination?

Yeah, sure. I'll demonstrate on you and DH.

Point is that what we are actually talking about (or were before all the bullshit started) is a comparison between slashing the throat of an animal while it is fully conscious, and slashing its throat after it is rendered unconscious. I think it's pretty obvious that the second option is more humane. Since most countries have laws against torturing animals just for the hell of it, I kinda figure that torturing animals just because you think some deity told you to is close enough to "for the hell of it" and therefore halal and kosher slaughter should be similarly illegal.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #69 - April 09, 2011, 10:51 PM

Quote
@ Debunker: Milk is a product of the fat of a female mammal. For instance, the fat that a Human female carries on her thighs and hips is there to provide breast-feeding milk for babies. It's the same in other mammals. If it's any consolation, Inuits will eat any amount of fat from a fresh killed animal but think that drinking the milk or milk products of another species is disgusting. It's all in the mind.

i presume when you say: "Milk is a product of the fat of a female mammal", you're saying the fat of the female mammal is is used as *energy* to produce the milk, right? the subcutaneous fat is broken into *fatty acids* first, before becoming an ingredient in the milk.

and no, in my case it's not a mind thing, it's just a taste buds thing. I really can't stand the taste of fatty meat.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #70 - April 09, 2011, 10:58 PM

Quote from: debunker on April 09, 2011, 10:45 PM
@ billy

actually i did once eat some ham (or pork?). It was some sort of a pasta salad, and i thought the white chunks of meat was chicken... but the taste was so horrible, i had doubts about the meat i was eating... so i asked about it and they told me it was ham. i just left and never looked back

Thats stealth pig. Not really the same. You need the proper hot cooked meat, and take in the smell as well.

I'm not saying you should. I'm just saying its one of the best tastes out there.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #71 - April 09, 2011, 11:07 PM

@ Debunker: I meant white fat of course; brown fat deposits are found elsewhere. You are spot on in observing that it's stored as one version and excreted/expressed as another, but chemicals are just chemicals aren't they? And 'fat' is a storage organ and is not just 'energy'; it contains everything every part of a growing infant needs in the absence of other food sources.
A large part of our own bodies is just different forms of fat - the brain for instance. Do you disgust yourself; do other humans disgust you on that basis?

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #72 - April 09, 2011, 11:45 PM

@ sojour

Quote
A large part of our own bodies is just different forms of fat - the brain for instance. Do you disgust yourself; do other humans disgust you on that basis?

I clearly explained that the visceral/muscular/subcutaneous animal fat is offensive to my taste buds. And since you mention it, yeah, I can't stand the taste of cooked brains either.

Quote
I meant white fat of course; brown fat deposits are found elsewhere. You are spot on in observing that it's stored as one version and excreted/expressed as another,

My understanding is that *fatty acids* are the same exact building blocks for all kinds of fat, be it the delicious olive oil, butter and fat in cheese, or the bad tasting visceral/muscular/subcutaneous fat. The same thing is true for all kinds of protein, be it veal, pork, deer, lamb, chicken, fish or vegetarian protein, all of these are built of the same building blocks: *amino acids*.

Quote
but chemicals are just chemicals aren't they?

No, although everything goes back to the Periodic Table, that doesn't mean that all combinations of the elements in this Table give the same result. Even feces are made of elements in the periodic Table, so are sparkling stars.

Quote
And 'fat' is a storage organ and is not just 'energy'; it contains everything every part of a growing infant needs in the absence of other food sources.

I'm not sure infants can live on fat alone. (the mother's milk contains loads of protein as well as enzyms and some vitamins/minerals too). as for the fat tissue being an organ, I heard this applies to visceral fat only, and that's why it's the dangerous type, since it secretes toxic chemicals.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #73 - April 09, 2011, 11:50 PM

Quote from: billy on April 09, 2011, 10:58 PM
Thats stealth pig. Not really the same. You need the proper hot cooked meat, and take in the smell as well.

I'm not saying you should. I'm just saying its one of the best tastes out there.

i kind of remember some ex-muslims here saying they couldn't bring themselves to like the taste of pork, but i guess i'll try it properly cooked, just for you billy.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #74 - April 10, 2011, 12:01 AM

As I mentioned earlier, we should be encouraging scientists to study and research the most humane methods of killing animals.

One such scientist is Dr Mohan Raj from Bristol University. He's been researching hypoxia as a way to kill animals in slaughterhouses. Hypoxia involves inhaling a gas mixture of argon and nitrogen. This deprives the brain of oxygen and gives the animal a pain free death.

This was shown on a BBC programme some years ago but I haven't heard anything since.

Watch this video from 6:40mins onwards...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EHXwyFhUXc

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #75 - April 10, 2011, 02:55 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 09, 2011, 05:12 PM
Where did I make this comparison?

I didn't claim that you did and that post was not directed at you, my post was in regards to the person directly above me (Pashtun) who said that we should then impose laws on how lions kill their prey. My entire post was a rebuttal to Pashtun's, not yours, but nonetheless.

Quote from: Q-Man on April 09, 2011, 05:12 PM
I mean who cares in the room I'm currently sitting in-- zero.

I would favour the majority of Dutch people over one person on the internet when it comes to Dutch laws.

Quote from: Q-Man on April 09, 2011, 05:12 PM
Please demonstrate that halal/kosher slaughter is the "most painful way" to kill an animal. This should be fun.

I'm talking about disregarding anesthetics or stunning the animal; or killing the animal instantly. Ignoring the procedures we have in place to minimise harm is hardly ideal.
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #76 - April 10, 2011, 02:56 AM

I am just thinking that 1000000 years ago evolution would have weeded debunker out for his finickiness about animal fat, or he would have invented butter. One or the other.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #77 - April 10, 2011, 08:11 AM

If these people really cared about animal rights, they would have banned commercial farming instead. Unfortunately this is nothing more than a thinly disguised attacked on the Abrahamic religions made by an increasingly Secularofacist Europe.

http://www.meatvideo.com/

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #78 - April 10, 2011, 08:22 AM

Quote from: Ghurabaa on April 10, 2011, 08:11 AM
If these people really cared about animal rights, they would have banned commercial farming instead. Unfortunately this is nothing more than a thinly disguised attacked on the Abrahamic religions made by an increasingly Secularofacist Europe.

http://www.meatvideo.com/

Obviously that isn't practical, given the demand for meat by consumers, that demand has to be met. However this is a small step that can be taken which won't fix every problem but would still improve the standards for animals. Every positive step, no matter how small, should be taken. As for secularism, almost every good thing in the world owes itself to secular societies. What good has religion ever done for mankind in the thousands of years it has been around?

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #79 - April 10, 2011, 02:03 PM

Quote from: Ghurabaa on April 10, 2011, 08:11 AM
an increasingly Secularofacist Europe.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #80 - April 10, 2011, 04:55 PM

Quote from: Unechance on April 10, 2011, 02:55 AM
I didn't claim that you did and that post was not directed at you, my post was in regards to the person directly above me (Pashtun) who said that we should then impose laws on how lions kill their prey. My entire post was a rebuttal to Pashtun's, not yours,

Yeah, I figured this out, but by then it was too late.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #81 - April 10, 2011, 05:15 PM

Quote from: debunker on April 09, 2011, 11:50 PM
i kind of remember some ex-muslims here saying they couldn't bring themselves to like the taste of pork, but i guess i'll try it properly cooked, just for you billy.

DB - why do you think pork is haram in Islam?

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #82 - April 10, 2011, 09:55 PM

In the UK we are very unlikely to adopt such a ban any time soon, despite the prevailing scientific consensus that the ritualistic killing of animals without pre-stunning causes unnecessary suffering. In the 2009 report on the welfare of animals for slaughter part B (white meat), commissioned by the government and authored by the Farm Animal Welfare Council, it concludes that animals go through "significant pain and distress" in the absence of pre-stunning and recommends that non-stunned Halal meat production becomes illegal. Unfortunately, we live in strange times and the government responded by saying that "while the Government would prefer to see all animals stunned before slaughter" they would not change its "long-standing policy of religious tolerance" by ending the practice. A frank admission that the reason it is allowed has nothing to do with animal welfare, and everything to do with being scared of upsetting certain rather vocal groups.

There are Muslims who do not have any problem with the stunning of an animal before it is killed. The Halal Food Authority (unlike the Halal Monitoring Committee) does insist on stunning of animals pre-slaughter. Their president has said: "The Koran says use your brain, ponder about things and that's what we are doing...It's a question of animal welfare." It would seem, therefore, that there is no reason at all for the refusal to stun an animal: expert scientists report that is cruel and some Muslims believe it to be unnecessary. All that remains is cultural inertia, and that really is no excuse at all.
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #83 - April 10, 2011, 10:05 PM

In the absence of any similar legislation impending in the UK, those of you who are interested in animal welfare issues (I appreciate not everyone here) might like to lobby their parliamentarians in Westminster and Brussels to support new amendments to add mandatory labelling to meat products, so that European consumers are better informed as to the moral implications of their actions as consumers. Whilst I don't see this as going far enough, it is something of a compromise at least. If you are interested in supporting this legislation, below is a letter you are free to use to contact your MEP (adapted from a letter from the BHA website):

Dear...

I am writing to you to urge you to support Amendments 353 and 359 to the ‘Proposal for the Provision of Food Information to Consumers' which calls for a label specifying 'Meat from slaughter without stunning' on meat derived from animals which have not been pre-stunned.

Whilst I am a vegetarian, I understand the desire to consume meat products and endeavour to never proselytise to others on the matter. However, I do consider that we have a responsibility to extend consideration and respect to sentient beings, especially those under our control and care. With that in mind, I consider it a moral duty to minimise the suffering that they experience on our account.

There is a significant body of evidence indicating that forms of ritual slaughter excluding pre-stunning cause animals unnecessary pain and suffering. At present, a large quantity of ritualistically slaughtered, non-pre-stunned, meat is sold unlabelled on the open market. The lack of discretion as to the origins of this meat deprives consumers of the necessary information to make an informed ethical choice in accordance with their own moral values.

I believe it is essential that consumers can take a fully informed decision about the products available, and I implore you to support the above amendments, tabled to be debated in the European Parliament on 11th April, and to encourage your colleagues to do likewise.

Kind regards,

...
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #84 - April 10, 2011, 10:10 PM

I think I'll stick to pork until this clusterfuck has been sorted out.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #85 - April 10, 2011, 10:46 PM

Quote from: chris on April 10, 2011, 10:05 PM
In the absence of any similar legislation impending in the UK, those of you who are interested in animal welfare issues (I appreciate not everyone here) might like to lobby their parliamentarians in Westminster and Brussels to support new amendments to add mandatory labelling to meat products, so that European consumers are better informed as to the moral implications of their actions as consumers. Whilst I don't see this as going far enough, it is something of a compromise at least. If you are interested in supporting this legislation, below is a letter you are free to use to contact your MEP (adapted from a letter from the BHA website):

Dear...

I am writing to you to urge you to support Amendments 353 and 359 to the ‘Proposal for the Provision of Food Information to Consumers' which calls for a label specifying 'Meat from slaughter without stunning' on meat derived from animals which have not been pre-stunned.

Whilst I am a vegetarian, I understand the desire to consume meat products and endeavour to never proselytise to others on the matter. However, I do consider that we have a responsibility to extend consideration and respect to sentient beings, especially those under our control and care. With that in mind, I consider it a moral duty to minimise the suffering that they experience on our account.

There is a significant body of evidence indicating that forms of ritual slaughter excluding pre-stunning cause animals unnecessary pain and suffering. At present, a large quantity of ritualistically slaughtered, non-pre-stunned, meat is sold unlabelled on the open market. The lack of discretion as to the origins of this meat deprives consumers of the necessary information to make an informed ethical choice in accordance with their own moral values.

I believe it is essential that consumers can take a fully informed decision about the products available, and I implore you to support the above amendments, tabled to be debated in the European Parliament on 11th April, and to encourage your colleagues to do likewise.

Kind regards,

...

I actually would agree with this. I'm all in favor of the law requiring people to be informed about what they consume, but I oppose the law requiring people consume or not consume this or that product (or that such a product should not be produced at all). Eliminate capitalism and then we can talk about what should or should not be produced.

Quote from: Ishina on April 10, 2011, 10:10 PM
I think I'll stick to pork until this clusterfuck has been sorted out.

This is why I'm in love with ishina.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #86 - April 10, 2011, 11:23 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 10, 2011, 10:46 PM
but I oppose the law requiring people consume or not consume this or that product (or that such a product should not be produced at all).

I wish you'd be accurate in your rebuttals.

The law doesn't dictate what you can or cannot consume. The law tells you how you can or cannot slaughter animals.

It doesn't dictate what you can or cannnot produce. It dictates how you can or cannot produce it... (the end product is afterall, the same).

And no I'm not being pedantic.

I'm not sitting on the fence on this issue. If a scientist (like the one in my previous post) develops a method of slaughtering animals which causes it very minimal pain and discomfort, then all other methods of animal slaughter should be banned. Outlawed. Made illegal.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #87 - April 10, 2011, 11:39 PM

Yes, SR, that's what I was trying to clarify with the shit in the parenthesis, but I failed, and, yes, I accept your clarification. Now I'm gonna go get some ice cream and the vegans can suck on that.

fuck you
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