Atheist Censorship

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #30 - April 14, 2011, 08:13 PM

Quote from: Ishina on April 14, 2011, 07:43 PM
I don't get why William Lane Craig is rated so highly. I must be missing something.

He's one of the best they got - dont forget its not easy having to defend that bull, most of us would have quite a job on our hands if we were faced with our own arguments. Faith cant be rationalised, and thats what they are trying to do.

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #31 - April 14, 2011, 08:17 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 14, 2011, 06:13 PM
Thanks, which of these are the biggest ones? I might take a look later..

I would say the James Randi forum gets the most users, but it lacks in new topics (most topics have dozens of pages)
The thinking atheist forum most likely has the best ratio of threads/commenters.
Although, all atheist forums are severely lacking these days.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #32 - April 14, 2011, 09:59 PM

Quote from: Ishina on April 14, 2011, 07:43 PM
I don't get why William Lane Craig is rated so highly. I must be missing something.

Well, because he's an accomplished propagandist for theism, of course!
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #33 - April 14, 2011, 10:07 PM

Quote from: arX on April 14, 2011, 04:51 PM
Increase in atheism = lack of one more unsubstantiated belief in a world full of unsubstantiated beliefs.

Increase in secularism = relatively greater freedom to believe whatever you want without imposing it on everyone else.

I would conclude that such increases are positively correlated with rationality.

Is belief in God necessarily unsubstantiated? Have you studied all religions and all scriptures and found that they're all completely mistaken? Do you know that all 'mystical' experiences are really just hallucinations and nothing more?

Only liberal secularism; obviously you wouldn't wanna live in the Soviet Union or Maoist China. Political re-education camps aren't symptomatic of a free and liberal society. Even in the West you have stuff like the banning of the niqab, illegalisation of weed and other drugs, and even the banning of books.

I wouldn't, not necessarily anyhow.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #34 - April 14, 2011, 10:38 PM

zbd, do you find that craig's arguments have any merit for their own sake? Or do you think that he should debate Dawkins simply because he has a greater understanding of theology than the naive biologist (which I agree with)?

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #35 - April 14, 2011, 10:43 PM

Eh richard dawkins has debated with william craig before 0_0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6tIee8FwX8

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #36 - April 14, 2011, 11:05 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on April 14, 2011, 10:07 PM
Is belief in God necessarily unsubstantiated? Have you studied all religions and all scriptures and found that they're all completely mistaken? Do you know that all 'mystical' experiences are really just hallucinations and nothing more?

No scriptural or testimonial account is sufficient proof of a god.

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #37 - April 14, 2011, 11:07 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on April 14, 2011, 10:07 PM
Is belief in God necessarily unsubstantiated? Have you studied all religions and all scriptures and found that they're all completely mistaken? Do you know that all 'mystical' experiences are really just hallucinations and nothing more?

The burden is on theists to demonstrate and convince the "'rationalists'" how their strong beliefs are substantiated "'rationally'". I'm neither claiming their existence nor their non-existence.

Otherwise replace "God" with unicorns, "all religions and all scriptures" with fables and legends, "all 'mystical' experiences" with The Matrix, and try to answer your own questions.

Quote
Even in the West you have stuff like the banning of the niqab, illegalisation of weed and other drugs, and even the banning of books.

Maybe I should have italicised, emboldened and underlined the keyword "relatively greater freedom". Tell me, what is your alternative to the big bad secularism such as that in, say, Sweden?

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #38 - April 14, 2011, 11:18 PM

@z10

Quote from: z10 on April 14, 2011, 10:38 PM
zbd, do you find that craig's arguments have any merit for their own sake? Or do you think that he should debate Dawkins simply because he has a greater understanding of theology than the naive biologist (which I agree with)?

It's a bit of both, but more than that still.

Kalam isn't all bad as it refutes the 'steady state' universe (though it doesn't nearly demonstrate all that Craig intends it to) and the fine tuning argument is not entirely useless, as it makes more plausible the notion of 'design,' and thus is evidence against atheism. The arguments do have major flaws though, they're not irrefutable by any means.

And Dawkins likes to make it seem as though the theism-atheism debate is entirely one-sided: stupid, misguided religionists believing iron-age nonsense on the one hand and enlightened and rational, scientifically-minded types bearing the banner of the advancement of the human race on the other.

I'd like Dawkins to debate Craig so he can get taken down a few pegs, but also so all his fanboys can see that things aren't nearly as simple as they like to believe. If atheism is given a philosophical kicking with rational and scientific arguments, then the atheists may think twice about bleating out the same old waffle about how rationality and empirical evidence is their exclusive domain.

As far as I'm concerned, modern atheists, materialists, Scientists, etc., can be every bit as arrogant and dogmatic, yet simultaneously misguided, as those religionists they claim to so vehemently oppose and contradict. They have to learn that they likewise don't have The Truth.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #39 - April 14, 2011, 11:23 PM

Quote from: Ishina on April 14, 2011, 11:05 PM
No scriptural or testimonial account is sufficient proof of a god.

Not really the kind of evidence I was talking about. Obviously just because a book says it doesn't mean it's true. I intended something more along the lines of 'scientific miracles,' prophecies, etc., which would help substantiate the claim that the scripture is, at least, partially inspired or the product of some kind of preternatural phenomenon.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #40 - April 14, 2011, 11:24 PM

Zebedee I thought you were an atheist?
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #41 - April 14, 2011, 11:31 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on April 14, 2011, 11:23 PM
I intended something more along the lines of 'scientific miracles,' prophecies, etc., which would help substantiate the claim that the scripture is, at least, partially inspired or the product of some kind of preternatural phenomenon.

I have yet to see such scripture. I have yet to see prophecies and scientific miracles.

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #42 - April 14, 2011, 11:34 PM

@arx

Quote from: arX on April 14, 2011, 11:07 PM
The burden is on theists to demonstrate and convince the "'rationalists'" how their strong beliefs are substantiated "'rationally'". I'm neither claiming their existence nor their non-existence.

You said these beliefs were 'unsubstantiated,' which was presumptuous. They may well have evidence for their beliefs, even if you're not aware of it.

Quote
Otherwise replace "God" with unicorns, "all religions and all scriptures" with fables and legends, "all 'mystical' experiences" with The Matrix, and try to answer your own questions.

It seems you've already assumed the spurious nature of these things when you equate them with mythology, fables and fiction. As you I'm sure well know, things aren't nearly that simple. The debate's still ongoing, as far as I can see.

Quote
Maybe I should have italicised, emboldened and underlined the keyword "relatively greater freedom". Tell me, what is your alternative to the big bad secularism such as that in, say, Sweden?

I conceded that liberal secularism wasn't all bad, but I'm not sure if secular tyrannies are necessarily better than theocratic ones.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #43 - April 14, 2011, 11:35 PM

Quote from: Ishina on April 14, 2011, 11:31 PM
I have yet to see such scripture. I have yet to see prophecies and scientific miracles.

Indeed. We may not know of such things, but that doesn't mean that the adherents of various religions likewise don't know of or possess such evidence.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #44 - April 14, 2011, 11:37 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on April 14, 2011, 11:24 PM
Zebedee I thought you were an atheist?

Well, I'm certainly an atheist with regards to the traditional Abrahamic conception of God, but not necessarily in the absolute sense. I agree with bashing the shit out of organised religion and refuting the proponents of its BS, but I don't say that God doesn't exist.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #45 - April 14, 2011, 11:39 PM

OK thanks for clarifying.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #46 - April 14, 2011, 11:44 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on April 14, 2011, 11:35 PM
Indeed. We may not know of such things, but that doesn't mean that the adherents of various religions likewise don't know of or possess such evidence.

If one of the worlds religions had such evidence of their God, I find it hard to believe we wouldn't know of it by now. For what reason would it be secret knowledge, kept secret even from the majority of adherents within that particular religion?

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #47 - April 14, 2011, 11:58 PM

Quote from: Ishina on April 14, 2011, 11:44 PM
If one of the worlds religions had such evidence of their God, I find it hard to believe we wouldn't know of it by now. For what reason would it be secret knowledge, kept secret even from the majority of adherents within that particular religion?

Wouldn't have to be secret knowledge, it may just not be something that the adherents of the religion focus on much, or publicise, especially if the religion isn't really a proselytising one. How much do you know about the Upanishads, the Torah, etc.? Few people except scholars and clergy really spend time studying scriptures in detail.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #48 - April 15, 2011, 12:03 AM

The Qur’an is apparently the perfect and complete word of God - the Final Testament to mankind. Why doesn’t it include this evidence, or even allude to other bodies of evidence that contain prophesy and scientific miracles?

The same with the Gospel of Christ, the followers of which are duty bound to spread the Word until all have heard it and the Last Day is brought about. Why isn’t this evidence used for conversion? What are they waiting for?

Why have we not heard of a single religious person in history who has presented such evidence, and why do the religious instead assert that their regular known scripture, as it stands, is compelling enough for them and should be compelling enough for those who choose instead to reject their God?

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #49 - April 15, 2011, 12:21 AM

Quote
Why doesn’t it include this evidence

Do you really know that it doesn't? And the Qur'an is only one of many scriptures.

Quote
Why isn’t this evidence used for conversion?

Christians do like to cite examples of prophecy, and the fulfillment of prophecy, as evidence for Christianity.

Quote
Why have we not heard of a single religious person in history who has presented such evidence

There's a lot of stuff that people haven't heard of, stuff that's important. Why should this be any different? Besides, they do present what they believe to be evidence for their gods.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #50 - April 15, 2011, 12:27 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on April 15, 2011, 12:21 AM
Christians do like to cite examples of prophecy, and the fulfillment of prophecy, as evidence for Christianity.

Yes, they do. The problem is that they're dishonest about it. Now it is possible to find Christians who are honest about Biblical prophecies, but they all admit that there is not one single case of any being fulfilled.

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #51 - April 15, 2011, 12:33 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on April 15, 2011, 12:21 AM
Do you really know that it doesn't? And the Qur'an is only one of many scriptures.

Hi, are you new here?

Quote from: Zebedee on April 15, 2011, 12:21 AM
Christians do like to cite examples of prophecy, and the fulfillment of prophecy, as evidence for Christianity.

They like to cite scripture, yes, and are ignorant and simple-minded enough to think that it constitutes prophecy. They have yet to present verified, specific prophecies that couldn't have been contrived, and that are not trivial or self-fulfilling, or are not a lucky hit in a thousand misses.

Quote from: Zebedee on April 15, 2011, 12:21 AM
There's a lot of stuff that people haven't heard of, stuff that's important. Why should this be any different? Besides, they do present what they believe to be evidence for their gods.

It may well be the case that some unknown or unshown ancient scripture contains the blueprints for interstellar craft, instructions for producing advanced eco-friendly fuel, or the complete unified theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics. It might well be the case that some scripture, somewhere out there, contains precise prophecies for future disasters, predicting earthquakes and tsunamis to the precise second, intensity, and epicentre. It may well be the case that Bigfoot exists and that toys come alive when no humans are around.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #52 - April 15, 2011, 12:37 AM

Quote
It may well be the case that some unknown or unshown ancient scripture contains the blueprints for interstellar craft, instructions for producing advanced eco-friendly fuel, or the complete unified theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics.

Dan Brown jots down the plot for his next novel....

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #53 - April 15, 2011, 12:41 AM

Quote from: Ishina on April 15, 2011, 12:33 AM
Hi, are you new here?
They like to cite scripture, yes, and are ignorant and simple-minded enough to think that it constitutes prophecy. They have yet to present verified, specific prophecies that couldn't have been contrived, and that are not trivial or self-fulfilling, or are not a lucky hit in a thousand misses.
It may well be the case that some unknown or unshown ancient scripture contains the blueprints for interstellar craft, instructions for producing advanced eco-friendly fuel, or the complete unified theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics. It might well be the case that some scripture, somewhere out there, contains precise prophecies for future disasters, predicting earthquakes and tsunamis to the precise second, intensity, and epicentre. It may well be the case that Bigfoot exists and that toys come alive when no humans are around.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

Of course, I'm not arguing in favour of any particular religious book. My argument was simply to say that there could be such scriptures, and that therefore it's presumptuous to conclude that they're all myths and fables, and nothing more, and that those who believe in them do so on the basis of little or no evidence.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #54 - April 15, 2011, 12:45 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 15, 2011, 12:27 AM
Yes, they do. The problem is that they're dishonest about it. Now it is possible to find Christians who are honest about Biblical prophecies, but they all admit that there is not one single case of any being fulfilled.

They may be mistaken, but I don't think it's quite accurate to say that they're just being dishonest if they claim there are fulfilled prophecies in the Bible. I'm sure there are those who genuinely believe them, even if they're wrong.
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #55 - April 15, 2011, 12:45 AM

Quote
Of course, I'm not arguing in favour of any particular religious book. My argument was simply to say that there could be such scriptures, and that therefore it's presumptuous to conclude that they're all myths and fables, and nothing more, and that those who believe in them do so on the basis of little or no evidence.

There might be UFO's in our orbit as we speak, so I guess its presumptuous and arrogant to discount the idea that aliens exist and are visiting us right now, too. Its about on the same level as that kind of presumptousness.

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #56 - April 15, 2011, 12:46 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on April 15, 2011, 12:41 AM
Of course, I'm not arguing in favour of any particular religious book. My argument was simply to say that there could be such scriptures, and that therefore it's presumptuous to conclude that they're all myths and fables, and nothing more, and that those who believe in them do so on the basis of little or no evidence.

Ok, the current lot of trash we speak of when we say "scripture" is all myths and fables, and the millions of people who believe in the "scripture" we are referring to do so on the basis of no evidence.

Is that fair to say?

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #57 - April 15, 2011, 12:54 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on April 15, 2011, 12:45 AM
They may be mistaken, but I don't think it's quite accurate to say that they're just being dishonest if they claim there are fulfilled prophecies in the Bible. I'm sure there are those who genuinely believe them, even if they're wrong.

Oh sure, but there are also those who are dishonest. What I'm mainly referring to is intellectual dishonesty (ie: lying to thmeselves). One example which I have heard quite often is for them to claim that just because a prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet that does not mean it is false. That's fine for some of them, but it's a definite problem when the prophecy is clearly about something that should have happened ages ago but hasn't. They'll still claim it's a valid prophecy though, which is blatant weaseling. This is a key point: they never admit that any Biblical prophecy could ever be proven false, because they already "know" that all Biblical prophecies are true.

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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #58 - April 15, 2011, 12:57 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 15, 2011, 12:27 AM
Yes, they do. The problem is that they're dishonest about it. Now it is possible to find Christians who are honest about Biblical prophecies, but they all admit that there is not one single case of any being fulfilled.

if we can disregard the fact that the Gospels were written ages after Jesus left the scene, then we can think of at least one fullfilled Biblical prophecy: the destruction of the Temple.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #59 - April 15, 2011, 12:59 AM

Quote from: debunker on April 15, 2011, 12:57 AM
if we can disregard the fact that the Gospels were written ages after Jesus left the scene, then we can think of at least one fullfilled Biblical prophecy: the destruction of the Temple.

Yeah, but that's the same as saying if we ignore the fact that it isn't a prophecy, it would be a prophecy.

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