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Theme Changer

 Topic: Atheist Censorship

 (Read 48414 times)
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  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #150 - April 15, 2011, 02:32 PM

    No, I'm talking about two very similar mentalities that are manifested in, ostensibly, very different ideologues and ideologies.


    Last post addressed that.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #151 - April 15, 2011, 02:36 PM

    On the subject of dogmatic atheists, here's a prime example. Watch from 3 minutes on.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4QfSp5neoU&feature=related

    What the hell, Zeb? That's it? That's your atheist zealot? More power to him, I say.

    What's wrong with atheists in America fighting to be heard? Are you aware of how hard it is in certain places in America to even publicly voice an opinion that isn't a Christian one?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #152 - April 15, 2011, 02:36 PM

    The belief asserted:

    Religionist: GOD exists and it is the total truth

    At worst the mythical science-rationalism dogmatist asserts the tool to understanding phenomena and natural mechanisms, a way of seeing the world that is not subject to absolute truth claims, and is bounded by the senses and mind of man.

    The religionist asserts an outside entity to whom moral and intellectual obeiscance must be made, enforced on the vulnerable and weak with a fist.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #153 - April 15, 2011, 02:38 PM

    What the hell, Zeb? That's it? That's your atheist zealot? More power to him, I say.


    I've seen that before.

    Its the Zakir Naik and Dawkins are equivalent rubric all over again.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #154 - April 15, 2011, 02:41 PM

    Remind us again how, with such graceful humility, you came to following conclusion:

    A strong belief I would say probably is lacking evidence


    And are we to assume that you are fully knowledgeable when it comes to evidence of extraterrestrial life?

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #155 - April 15, 2011, 02:46 PM

    When did we get to the point where we are not supposed to call bullshit on things? Since when is the rational one the one making bullshit claims, and the irrational one the one that will not respectfully acknowledge bullshit?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #156 - April 15, 2011, 02:48 PM

    @Ishina

    I'm starting to get the impression that you like to argue for its own sake. Not that I don't appreciate a good battle of wits, but it can get rather tiresome if it becomes a fruitless back-and-forth.

    Quote
    I am rejecting those religions and scriptures that I know about. It's impossible for me to reject hypothetical religions and scriptures unless I at least know partly the qualities they comprise of. Until something is presented, I have nothing to reject.


    Once again, I haven't argued against such a position. All I said was that it is presumptuous to dismiss all religions without knowledge. You may not be able to reject something without knowing about it; fine, that's not a problem. All that I considered to be problematic was to assert that all religions and scriptures are bunk without actually knowing this to be the case, but rather just assuming it.

    Quote
    Do you honestly expect me to sit here right now and say it is possible that fairies exist? Would you think less of me if I didn't acknowledge the possibility of fairies?


    Since no logical absurdity results from their existence, it is possible that they exist. People simply don't like to acknowledge such a possibility because it's taken to be ridiculous, but that's nothing more than a matter of social conditioning, it means nothing. Granted though, the issue is complicated by the fact that the concept of fairies is arguably nothing more than a known human invention. Although, the same may be asserted of gods, the case of God's existence is more complicated than that of fairies, given its universality, it's various manifestations, and its necessity as an explanatory hypothesis, and so forth. The debate is still ongoing with regards to God, not so much for fairies.

    Quote
    Atheists and believers have a fundamental disagreement over something that the believer considers sacred and core to their being. Any attempt to express that disagreement, no matter how reasonably or politely stated, is going to be viewed as an attack or insult. The only way some people can tolerate being disagreed with when it’s a matter of religious faith is when it is dripping in a deferential candy coating and presented as an apology.


    I never said that believers and unbelievers were identical, of course they have differences. And not all believers react this way to having their beliefs challenged.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #157 - April 15, 2011, 03:04 PM

    @Billy

    Quote
    (a) The truth claims made by the religionist: GOD exists, and to his police on Earth descends power and executive influence upon individuals and societies.

    (b) The claim made by the mythical strawman science-rationalism-fascist: no evidence for GOD exists, humanity has the capacity to understand the universe and phenomena through its own endeavours, discovery and genius, humanity has the capacity to correct itself, the tyranny of arbitrary supernatural power over the heads of individuals and societies has no place in a humane world.


    Firstly, as I said to Ishina, I acknowledge that the two sides are not identical. Secondly, your characterisation of the atheistic side in my argument is not at all accurate. And you accuse me of making a strawman? I have explained the perspective and characterisitics of these kinds of atheists in my previous posts, so I won't waste time doing it again, and for no other reason than to dispel your mischaracterisation of my argument.

    Quote
    No equaivalency between the two.


    That's true, but as I have said, these are not how I have defined the two positions in my argument.

    Quote
    The 'dogmatism' resides in there being an equivalent surety of belief between the religionist who says GOD exists with ZERO evidence and those who say with no evidence we assume GOD doesn't exist? Not even close in proportionate comparison. Not even close.


    Again, mischaracterisation. I don't say that these atheists say anything so impartial as 'we assume,' that God doesn't exist. They positively assert that God and religion is all nonsense and mythology. See that video. And yes, not the same, but you've modified both positions to suite your argument.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #158 - April 15, 2011, 03:06 PM

    The belief asserted:

    Religionist: GOD exists and it is the total truth

    At worst the mythical science-rationalism dogmatist asserts the tool to understanding phenomena and natural mechanisms, a way of seeing the world that is not subject to absolute truth claims, and is bounded by the senses and mind of man.

    The religionist asserts an outside entity to whom moral and intellectual obeiscance must be made, enforced on the vulnerable and weak with a fist


    You're a smart person, billy, but that is a grotesque over-simplification.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #159 - April 15, 2011, 03:08 PM

    Quote
    You're a smart person, billy, but that is a grotesque over-simplification.


    Same to you  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #160 - April 15, 2011, 03:10 PM

    @arx

    Quote
    Remind us again how, with such graceful humility, you came to following conclusion:

    Quote
    A strong belief I would say probably is lacking evidence


    And are we to assume that you are fully knowledgeable when it comes to evidence of extraterrestrial life?


    Because there's so much that we don't know about the universe, even now. Nevermind the universe, our own little planet alone. Besides, given the vastness of the universe and the profound proliferation of life just on this planet, it is actually quite possible that life on other worlds exists, even intelligent life.

    No, and I said that I wasn't fully knowledgeable on the subject in my previous post.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #161 - April 15, 2011, 03:13 PM

    I'm starting to get the impression that you like to argue for its own sake.

    Yes, I like arguing Smiley

    Not that I don't appreciate a good battle of wits, but it can get rather tiresome if it becomes a fruitless back-and-forth.

    Well, I didn’t ask you to engage me.  Don't feel obliged to reply to anything I've said. You are not obliged to even acknowledge my existence, let alone type words at me. You do so freely and in your own time.

    All that I considered to be problematic was to assert that all religions and scriptures are bunk without actually knowing this to be the case, but rather just assuming it.

    Ok, I assume all religions and scriptures are bunk, since the ones I know about are. Is that better worded?

    Since no logical absurdity results from their existence, it is possible that they exist. People simply don't like to acknowledge such a possibility because it's taken to be ridiculous, but that's nothing more than a matter of social conditioning, it means nothing. Granted though, the issue is complicated by the fact that the concept of fairies is arguably nothing more than a known human invention. Although, the same may be asserted of gods, the case of God's existence is more complicated than that of fairies, given its universality, it's various manifestations, and its necessity as an explanatory hypothesis, and so forth. The debate is still ongoing with regards to God, not so much for fairies.

    There is as much proof of fairies as there is any of the gods so far presented. There is as much proof that fairies created the universe as there is that any of these so-called god created the universe. Neither fairies or gods feature amongst the things I believe exist.

    I never said that believers and unbelievers were identical, of course they have differences. And not all believers react this way to having their beliefs challenged.

    That may be so, but I think that you are falsely equivocating rational scepticism and belief without evidence.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #162 - April 15, 2011, 03:23 PM

    @Ishina

    Quote
    What the hell, Zeb? That's it? That's your atheist zealot? More power to him, I say.


    Yes well, note his words 'every religion is a myth.' Also notable, when she asks him at 3:50, 'You're the one who knows the truth,' and he responds 'Yeah, we do.' So there it is guys, the answer to life, the universe and everything. We should all start praying to David Silverman, Knower of the Unseen.

    Quote
    What's wrong with atheists in America fighting to be heard? Are you aware of how hard it is in certain places in America to even publicly voice an opinion that isn't a Christian one?


    Nothing at all. You well know my problem is not with that.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #163 - April 15, 2011, 03:28 PM

    Yes well, note his words 'every religion is a myth.'

    I'm pretty sure I've said something similar before.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #164 - April 15, 2011, 03:39 PM

    @Ishina

    Quote
    Yes, I like arguing


    Fair play to you.

    Quote
    Well, I didn’t ask you to engage me.  Don't feel obliged to reply to anything I've said. You are not obliged to even acknowledge my existence, let alone type words at me. You do so freely and in your own time.


    Yes, but it's impolite and churlish to ignore people who've taken the time to write to you and ask you something.  Smiley

    Quote
    Ok, I assume all religions and scriptures are bunk, since the ones I know about are. Is that better worded?


    An assumption you're free to make, but of course I doubt that you can assert or claim to know, in all honesty, that all religions are bunk.

    Quote
    There is as much proof of fairies as there is any of the gods so far presented. There is as much proof that fairies created the universe as there is that any of these so-called god created the universe.


    One of the definitions of God is 'that which created the universe.' This is not the case with fairies. But any 'fairy' that created the universe would just be a relabeled version of God. See, God is taken to be a necessary being. It is one possible hypothesis advanced to explain the origin of the universe, and as such its existence is still debated today, and this is just one aspect of the debate on its existence. The fairy hypothesis is not nearly so plausible, for various obvious reasons.

    Quote
    That may be so, but I think that you are falsely equivocating rational scepticism and belief without evidence.


    I don't believe I am. I'm not even grouping all religionists and atheists into the same category. I'm talking about some atheists and some religionists, not the entirety of both categories.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #165 - April 15, 2011, 03:46 PM

    The fairy hypothesis is not nearly so plausible, for various obvious reasons.

    What reasons?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #166 - April 15, 2011, 04:00 PM

    The fact that they're most likely a human contrivance, that they're not a potential explanatory hypothesis for the origin of the universe, they're not a universal concept, etc.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #167 - April 15, 2011, 04:15 PM

    The fact that they're most likely a human contrivance...

    The same can be said of gods.

    they're not a potential explanatory hypothesis for the origin of the universe...

    No more or less explanatory than a god.

    they're not a universal concept, etc.

    Many civilisations have their own myths of forest spirits and nymphs, elves, fairies, pixies, gnomes, goblins, wisps, elementals, etc. There are as many incarnations of such myths as their are of the god myth.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #168 - April 15, 2011, 04:40 PM

    All very well, but all this is something of a peripheral issue anyway. The fact remains that one cannot dismiss all religions and gods without knowledge from the outset, or even a god that's never been defined by any religion, but which may exist. Not without being presumptuous, at any rate.

    And you even seemed to concede that the existence of fairies, and that of God, are not on equal likelihood with this comment:

    Quote
    Do you honestly expect me to sit here right now and say it is possible that fairies exist?


    You're incredulous because you know fairies aren't real, but I doubt you'd express the same incredulity about the possibility of a god's existence. Why? Because it's still very much an open question and a real possibility. The issues aren't the same, and we haven't even discussed the actual evidence for God's existence as opposed to that in favour of the existence of fairies, as of yet.

    Quote
    No more or less explanatory than a god.


    Fairies aren't really necessary to explain the origin of any given natural, supernatural or metaphysical phenomenon because they themselves would just be products of that order. They cannot make good or even viable explanations of many of these things, whereas God can.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #169 - April 15, 2011, 05:15 PM

    I can't do this anymore.

    You have it in your head that "God" is a valid explanation for something or other, at this point I'm not even sure what, and that there is more reason to believe gods exist than believe fairies exist. The evidence for either of these things isn't gonna surface anytime soon, and at this rate of progress I think I can safely assume that the evidence doesn't even exist, and that both these things wouldn't even be on the table if we had not come from ignorant origins where imagination ran wild in the massive void of what was unknown.

    You are welcome to believe what you want to believe. I can't stop you living in a fantasy world, but you can't drag me into it with you.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #170 - April 15, 2011, 06:17 PM

    @zeb

    I haven't followed the last 4 or so pages. But not all explicit atheists are strong/positive atheists (I would think no one on this site is the latter). While an explicit atheist may believe there is no God (as opposed to an implicit atheist lacking belief altogether), that's not the same as claiming "at least one deity exists" is a false statement. We don't have to be dragged into an epistemological debate because we never actually claimed to know god doesn't exist.

    Having said that, I'm too annoyed by the fanatical atheists with their arrogant delusions that they don't take things on faith and all their beliefs are perfectly empirical.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #171 - April 15, 2011, 06:27 PM

    Having said that, I'm too annoyed by the fanatical atheists with their arrogant delusions that they don't take things on faith and all their beliefs are perfectly empirical.

    Not nearly as annoyed as I get when people say atheism is a position of faith.


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #172 - April 15, 2011, 10:09 PM

    The way you phrase premise 1, you are basically saying that 'natural law' is synonymous with the limit of our (scientific) knowledge. Thus phrased, every new piece of knowledge is then a miracle, until it is explainable in theoretical terms and then it becomes part of our 'natural laws'. One can imagine that early humans may have found fire miraculous, just as we find telepathy miraculous today. Just wait till an Einstein/ Darwin of telepathy comes along and you will be convinced that ofcourse telepathy is a natural law and miracles of course don't exist. 

    No, I wasn't exactly saying that. I realise there may be aspects of natural laws that we don't yet know about. I'd be rather surprised if this wasn't the case. What I was talking about is things that overturn any and all natural laws, regardless of whether we currently know about them or not.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #173 - April 15, 2011, 10:40 PM

    No, I wasn't exactly saying that. I realise there may be aspects of natural laws that we don't yet know about. I'd be rather surprised if this wasn't the case. What I was talking about is things that overturn any and all natural laws, regardless of whether we currently know about them or not.


    But laws have always been overturned to make way for new theories. It is no secret that the Ptolemaic view of the world was incredibly accurate in explaining the movement of celestial bodies and that it was overturned by Copernicus not because of accuracy of hypotheses (in which Ptolemy was ahead of Copernicus) but because Copernicus had the simpler and more elegant theory.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #174 - April 15, 2011, 10:58 PM

    No. It was not overturned just because the Copernican view was more elegant. It was overturned because it was wrong. The universe is not geocentric.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #175 - April 15, 2011, 11:03 PM

    There was no way to confirm the geocentric view of the world in the 16th century. As far as results and predictability is concerned the Ptolemaic worldview was far more accurate than the earliest Copernican results.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #176 - April 15, 2011, 11:05 PM

    Ok, will take your word for it for now.

    ETA: Mind you, it still would have been overturned eventually, as soon as a heliocentric solar system could have been demonstrated.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #177 - April 15, 2011, 11:08 PM

    @Prince Spinoza

    I haven't followed the last 4 or so pages. But not all explicit atheists are strong/positive atheists (I would think no one on this site is the latter). While an explicit atheist may believe there is no God (as opposed to an implicit atheist lacking belief altogether), that's not the same as claiming "at least one deity exists" is a false statement. We don't have to be dragged into an epistemological debate because we never actually claimed to know god doesn't exist.

    Having said that, I'm too annoyed by the fanatical atheists with their arrogant delusions that they don't take things on faith and all their beliefs are perfectly empirical.


    As I wrote in a previous post:

    Quote
    I'm not even grouping all religionists and atheists into the same category. I'm talking about some atheists and some religionists, not the entirety of both categories.

  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #178 - April 15, 2011, 11:13 PM

    Ok, will take your word for it for now.

    ETA: Mind you, it still would have been overturned eventually, as soon as a heliocentric solar system could have been demonstrated.


    Yes it would have. However, I think the key point here is that an accepted theory at the time was overturned to accomodate a new and (eventually) better viewpoint. It's possible that what we consider miraculous today can also be similarly assimilated into our worldview.

    As another example one can point to Maxwell's combining of electricity and magnetism to produce his theory of light which overturned Newton's accepted theory of light at the time.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #179 - April 15, 2011, 11:19 PM

    Yes I understand your point, but it's not really a good example to use as a comparison for "miracles", since it was just another (better) assessment of basic celestial mechanics. That's a minor side issue though.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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