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Theme Changer

 Topic: Atheist Censorship

 (Read 48343 times)
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  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #270 - April 17, 2011, 10:27 PM

    Yeah, go for it if you like. Might be best in a new thread. Suit yourself.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #271 - April 17, 2011, 10:38 PM

    Yep. This is something that has always puzzled me. Dawkins is very clear about what he is doing and yet some people try to take his book completely out of context, and then villify him for not tackling subjects he never claimed to be tackling.

    I think its also a great introduction to the broader discussion. Nobody can deny the awareness it has raised and the debate it has sparked. It might not be a hardcore philosophy textbook, but then sometimes hard philosophy textbooks are not really that interesting anyway, or is something you need to be in the mood for. People can appreciate both at the same time, for different reasons.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #272 - April 17, 2011, 10:54 PM

    ^ For the record, I'm not convinced causality as we conceive it actually holds true. As such arguments from first cause may well be futile, if not incomprehensible. Both a first cause and no first cause seems like equal nonsense to me (unless the first cause is purely random, perhaps) Huh?
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #273 - April 17, 2011, 11:31 PM

    pfff..
    Yet again philosophers complain about the bashing of religion and belief in God, when they know full well that most ordinary people's idea of God is a theistic (personal) God.  Dawkins, being an evolutionary biologist, has a problem with creationists mainly.  He is frustrated by their getting in the way of science. I can understand his frustration.  He has been writing science books for decades.  Also, he is passionate about science and makes his points with great confidence, and that can be mistaken for dogmatism.  I've watched a lot of his videos and can say that he comes across as an honest scientist.  He admits when he doesn't have evidence to support a given claim.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #274 - April 18, 2011, 10:21 PM

    .
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #275 - April 19, 2011, 02:45 PM

     Surely there are theological arguments that Dawkins has never heard about.
     But in this world there are 2.5 bilions of Christians and 1.5 bilions of Muslims, and the vast majority of them are not even at Dawkins' level of philosophy.So Dawkins is doing a very nice job so far and I congratulate him.If people go from christianity/islam to deism because of him, but then don't go one step further to atheism because Dawkins is bad at philosophy, I'm fine with this, it still means Dawkins did something good.
     "The God Delusion" is a wonderful book.It made me feel proud of my atheism.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #276 - April 19, 2011, 04:39 PM

    @Ishina

    Quote
    That is, when you speak of God, you mean a deity of some kind, a supernatural anthropomorphic entity, typically one that had a hand in the creation of the universe or oversees a certain aspect of it


    No, I don't have to mean these kinds of gods because they aren't the only ones possible.

    Quote
    You could define God as this cup of hot black coffee sitting in front of me


    That would just be a frivolous relabeling of something, of course. When one speaks of God, one generally intends, at least, something which is the necessary being, the one non-contingent 'cause' of everything else, the originator of the universe and all that exists, except itself. This is something along the lines of what I mean.

    Quote
    The body of knowledge we have to draw upon is obviously much more comprehensive now than it was thousands of years ago. Science has a far more encompassing understanding of the universe than it did thousands of years ago. We know things to more decimal places of certainty than we did thousands of years ago.

    It isn’t unwise to think people would be wiser than those who lived thousands of years ago if they were better educated.


    Even in an age where people know more than they used to, ignorance persists. And still, knowing more does not equate to being wiser. Wisdom is not the same as knowledge. And indeed, intelligent and educated people are prone to nonsensical beliefs, as you yourself must surely concede.

    Sure, some people might be less likely to be taken in by hocus-pocus, but even now, superstitions and delusions are fairly common.

    Quote
    It’s the kind of contention that becomes redundant when posed as a question. As a question, you could put it: If there was evidence of a thing, would there be evidence of a thing?


    That's irrelevant and you know it. I'm not driving at any tautology here. My contention from the start was merely that people cannot dismiss absolutely the possibility of the existence of a god without knowledge.

    But this isn't really an abstract discussion on epistemology, as implied by your question. It's entirely possible that there is evidence for God's existence, and it's likewise possible that there's none. Either way, God could still exist. The possibility remains open, and that is my contention.

    Quote
    “Once again, we have hit philosophical bedrock with the shovel of a stupid question”
    ~ Sam Harris


    Yeah, a stupid question you came up with.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #277 - April 19, 2011, 04:56 PM

    I said unless you tell me what you mean by the word God, it is reasonable to assume you mean a theist God. An actual deity, not just a lazy philosophers catch-all concept. Not just a non-word that means "everything I don't understand yet." But I suspect you know what I meant.

    And it is a stupid question. That's exactly my point. That is what your contention boils down to - We cannot rule something out on lack of evidence, because we can imagine there is evidence. If there was evidence of a thing, there would be evidence of a thing.

    There is a point where it becomes impossible to have any meaningful conversation with someone who is too philosophical. And also there is a point where it becomes unnecessary to even consider their opinion anyway, if you can call it an opinion, since they pleasure in reminding us all that they apparently know nothing about anything, and will say anything and everything can neither be asserted or known. It becomes a competition to see who can dismantle the structure of discussion first, a discussion about discussion itself, literally a discussion about nothing.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #278 - April 20, 2011, 02:12 PM

    @Ishina

    Quote
    I said unless you tell me what you mean by the word God, it is reasonable to assume you mean a theist God. An actual deity, not just a lazy philosophers catch-all concept. Not just a non-word that means "everything I don't understand yet." But I suspect you know what I meant.


    I've clarified my use of the word. Although, people should still understand what one means by a god, even if only vaguely.

    Quote
    And it is a stupid question.


    Yep, and that's why I never asked it.

    Quote
    That is what your contention boils down to - We cannot rule something out on lack of evidence, because we can imagine there is evidence.


    The same could apply to any previously unknown natural phenomenon. That itself is a fairly uncontroversial point. We can't definitively rule something out on our lack of evidence, as there may well be evidence, and that thing we may exist, despite our ignorance.

    Quote
    If there was evidence of a thing, there would be evidence of a thing.


    I don't understand what you're even driving at with this. I say that there is a possibility of God's existence, and that there may be evidence of it that we're not aware of, which there may, as any honest person will concede. I think you're mischaracterising what I'm saying because what I say is, in fact, fairly uncontroversial and easy to grasp; you just like to argue.  Tongue

    Quote
    There is a point where it becomes impossible to have any meaningful conversation with someone who is too philosophical.


    I'm not being too philosophical here, as far as I can tell. All I'm saying is that God may exist, and there may be evidence to this effect that we're not aware of. That's fairly straight-forward, I'd have thought. It's not something you'd need a degree in philosophy to understand.

    Quote
    a discussion about discussion itself


    I'm really just trying to clarify and simplify things. This is a result of your constant introduction of new and irrelevant subjects into what is clearly, as I've said, a simple and fairly uncontroversial point.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #279 - April 20, 2011, 02:42 PM

    The same could apply to any previously unknown natural phenomenon. That itself is a fairly uncontroversial point. We can't definitively rule something out on our lack of evidence, as there may well be evidence, and that thing we may exist, despite our ignorance.

    I don't understand what you're even driving at with this. I say that there is a possibility of God's existence, and that there may be evidence of it that we're not aware of, which there may, as any honest person will concede. I think you're mischaracterising what I'm saying because what I say is, in fact, fairly uncontroversial and easy to grasp; you just like to argue.  Tongue

    I'm not being too philosophical here, as far as I can tell. All I'm saying is that God may exist, and there may be evidence to this effect that we're not aware of. That's fairly straight-forward, I'd have thought. It's not something you'd need a degree in philosophy to understand.

    You're not making things simple. You're also saying that god is more plausible than fairies, which complicates things. There is evidence of neither.

    It's not that these concepts are difficult. Any parrot can squawk philosophy 101.

    I'm really just trying to clarify and simplify things. This is a result of your constant introduction of new and irrelevant subjects into what is clearly, as I've said, a simple and fairly uncontroversial point.

    There is only one subject here as far as I'm aware - evidence for a god. It was initially a tangent, but that's the subject I've been talking about anyway.

    I'm not sure where these new and irrelevant subjects that I'm constantly introducing are.


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #280 - April 20, 2011, 04:00 PM

    @zeb

    Would you insist on calling a first-cause, 'god'.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #281 - April 21, 2011, 12:03 PM

    @zeb

    Would you insist on calling a first-cause, 'god'.


    Not necessarily, though I suppose God would at least have to be the first cause, regardless of whatever other attributes it had. I asserted that it had to be the first cause in response to Ishina's 'coffee cup' example.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #282 - April 21, 2011, 09:22 PM

    Do you believe in a god, zeb?
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #283 - April 21, 2011, 11:05 PM

    Simplest possible answer, yes.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #284 - April 21, 2011, 11:06 PM

    And what is this god?
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #285 - April 21, 2011, 11:18 PM

    Simplest possible answer, yes.


    Allahuakbar!!

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #286 - April 21, 2011, 11:40 PM

    And what is this god?

    I hope you are not expecting the simplest possible aswer for this. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #287 - April 22, 2011, 12:06 AM

    Lol@AbuYunus3

    @Spinoza

    And what is this god?


    Dunno.

    But if I'm to give some speculative ideas about what I believe may resemble its nature, then I will.

    Essentially, it is not identical with any specific conceptual or physical object. It itself is not directly manifested but all things are manifested by way of it. It is the basis of existence and all that is, and what exists does so as direct result of, and in accordance with, its being.

    Contrary to pantheism, it is not the universe, as, for one thing, the universe itself is just another transient entity with a beginning and an end, and of course the necessary being has no such qualities. Contrary to atheism's assertion, what exists is not an accidental product of physics or chemistry, but an 'active' manifestation of the divine will and self.

    At the same time, one should avoid notions of a god that does/does not intervene. They create a confusing and misleading dichotomy. It's necessarily the case that the deity intervenes, it's simply that its means of doing so are not really known. Some reject outright the concept of a god that performs 'miracles' for instance, but it's impossible to impose preconceptions onto something and then expect to have a clear understanding of it. This is one reason as to why I prefer a more amorphous understanding of God, as well as the fact that it makes little sense for the supreme being to have any specific personality or character.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #288 - April 22, 2011, 12:12 AM

    What's wrong with the word nature?
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #289 - April 22, 2011, 12:15 AM

    Cool Zeb. Are there any things in particular that led you to these ideas - i'm just genuinely curious.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #290 - April 22, 2011, 12:16 AM

    Sounds like poetry. (Not that I would ever use that word derisively.) It seems irresponsible to call it 'god'.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #291 - April 22, 2011, 12:19 AM


    Contrary to pantheism, it is not the universe, as, for one thing, the universe itself is just another transient entity with a beginning and an end, and of course the necessary being has no such qualities.


    I'm not sure why Pantheism necessitates a beginning or an end.

    Quote
    Contrary to atheism's assertion, what exists is not an accidental product of physics or chemistry, but an 'active' manifestation of the divine will and self.


    And I'm not sure why you insist on that description of atheism.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #292 - April 22, 2011, 12:21 AM

    when i think about things, the mere existence of scientific laws makes me think there is a god - why should this or that scientific law exist at all? what is the mechanism by which a scientific law came to exist? what deteremined it's mathematics?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #293 - April 22, 2011, 12:23 AM

    Lol@AbuYunus3

    @Spinoza

    Dunno.

    But if I'm to give some speculative ideas about what I believe may resemble its nature, then I will.

    Essentially, it is not identical with any specific conceptual or physical object. It itself is not directly manifested but all things are manifested by way of it. It is the basis of existence and all that is, and what exists does so as direct result of, and in accordance with, its being.

    Contrary to pantheism, it is not the universe, as, for one thing, the universe itself is just another transient entity with a beginning and an end, and of course the necessary being has no such qualities. Contrary to atheism's assertion, what exists is not an accidental product of physics or chemistry, but an 'active' manifestation of the divine will and self.

    At the same time, one should avoid notions of a god that does/does not intervene. They create a confusing and misleading dichotomy. It's necessarily the case that the deity intervenes, it's simply that its means of doing so are not really known. Some reject outright the concept of a god that performs 'miracles' for instance, but it's impossible to impose preconceptions onto something and then expect to have a clear understanding of it. This is one reason as to why I prefer a more amorphous understanding of God, as well as the fact that it makes little sense for the supreme being to have any specific personality or character.


    This sounds very neo-platonic zeb, perhaps you will enjoy the works of plotinus/ proclus...

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #294 - April 22, 2011, 12:24 AM

    Sounds like poetry. (Not that I would ever use that word derisively.) It seems irresponsible to call it 'god'.


    Are you saying it's irresponsible because people have certain connotations attached to the word god whereas zeb does not hold to those conceptions?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #295 - April 22, 2011, 12:27 AM

    *thinks this is a trap*

    I will go with yes, for the moment. Though it's an argument I apply more to scientists, who when asked if they believe in god, respond with stuff like 'i believe in the god of order'etc, i.e. a phantom nothingness.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #296 - April 22, 2011, 12:32 AM

    @Spinoza

    What's wrong with the word nature?


    For one, even a theistic god could simply be called the default state of nature. The word 'nature' doesn't really tell you much at all. Or if you restrict 'nature' to this contingent universe, then of course it again is inadequate. Although, I suppose you could use the term, given how vague and all-encompassing it is. 'God' could certainly be included in it.

    Quote
    I'm not sure why Pantheism necessitates a beginning or an end.


    Well, if you don't use the word to mean just the universe then it's not a bad word to use.

    Quote
    And I'm not sure why you insist on that description of atheism.


    Sure, there may be others, but this is a common one. In any case, the atheistic understanding isn't entirely devoid of truth however you look at it. I think it simply fails to look at the universe and what exists in it holistically. It seems to treat everything as a separate entity, rather than an intrinsic part. But that's just me.

    Quote
    Poetry, I'm guessing. Not that I would ever use that word derisively. But it seems irresponsible to call it 'god'.


    I don't see how.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #297 - April 22, 2011, 12:38 AM

    Essentially, it is not identical with any specific conceptual or physical object. It itself is not directly manifested but all things are manifested by way of it. It is the basis of existence and all that is, and what exists does so as direct result of, and in accordance with, its being.

    You've described little else but a datum point for everything. For what reason does it become active and involved? For what reason and in what form does the datum point need to be actively involved in all else measured from it? And what makes things manifested from it rather than just measured from it?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #298 - April 22, 2011, 12:51 AM

    @Spinoza

    For one, even a theistic god could simply be called the default state of nature. The word 'nature' doesn't really tell you much at all.


    Like the word 'god'.

    Quote
    Although, I suppose you could use the term, given how vague and all-encompassing it is. 'God' could certainly be included in it.


    But god has obvious, important connotations, so why insist on that word?

    Quote
    Well, if you don't use the word to mean just the universe then it's not a bad word to use.


    Are you using the term 'universe' to describe the Universe since the big bang?

    Quote
    Sure, there may be others, but this is a common one. In any case, the atheistic understanding isn't entirely devoid of truth however you look at it. I think it simply fails to look at the universe and what exists in it holistically. It seems to treat everything as a separate entity, rather than an intrinsic part. But that's just me.


    I think you are confusing other beliefs of atheists with atheism. Atheists reject a concept(s), referred to as god... you're then inventing another concept, calling it god, and then insisting that atheists reject it. We don't all believe that the world is made up of some kind of inert matter (like that could actually exist!) totally devoid of vitality.

    Quote
    I don't see how.


    Well here was one of my justifications for not questioning Islam for a long time - My physics teacher says he believes in a god that is the laws of nature. If a scientist like him says it, it's probably right, therefore I am right to believe in Allah.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #299 - April 22, 2011, 12:55 AM

    @AbuYunus

    Cool Zeb. Are there any things in particular that led you to these ideas - i'm just genuinely curious.


    It's late and I'm surprisingly tired so I'm sorry if I don't explain myself well or in detail.

    Regarding the amorphous God, this seems to me to be the most sensible understanding, given that a god surely precedes prior conditions that shape its nature. And obviously, not existing anywhere in space, it isn't likely to have a physical form. Besides that, I imagine that God would have to be a being that is completely free and transcendent, largely for the aforementioned reason.

    Like this, God is neither this nor that object/idea/property, but rather it is the basis of these things. It's interesting that the Qur'an says God is the 'light of the heavens and the earth.' God is the white light, and everything else that exists is like that light passing through a prism, and producing every colour and shade on the spectrum.

    Aside from that, if God's being/nature 'intervenes,' as it would every second, then it's strange to draw a line at one specific point and decide that its nature stops at our conceptual limit. God is not bound by our understandings and preconceptions, and so, we cannot impose them upon it.

    At the same time, all this discussion of what God is and is not is rather dubious, and probably, ultimately, pointless. God will necessarily be entirely distinct from our conceptions of it, and so those conceptions inevitably become mere hindrances, they are not genuine understanding or knowledge. In the end they too should be discarded, like Wittgenstein's ladder. God is most likely known another way.

    And the basis of 'faith' is not some abstract, sterile concept that one adopts as one would adopt belief in the truth of some mathematical proof. As you are tied to God and its nature, inseparably, then you can't have a conception of it as some detached 'other.' 'Tat tvam asi,' is the Hindu slogan: you are it. Of course, no individual is the deity, but your nature is inextricably bound to it, and so all people, all beings, are a part of that divine nature being manifested. As a result, I believe, all people can 'know' the divine.
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