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 Topic: Are we ready for neo-evolution?

 (Read 10272 times)
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  • Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     OP - April 26, 2011, 11:20 PM
    Harvey Fineberg: Are we ready for neo-evolution?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2WyXD7IaN0

    Medical ethicist Harvey Fineberg shows us three possible paths forward for the ever-evolving human species:

    1. To stop evolving completely
    2. To evolve naturally
    3. To control the next steps of human evolution, using genetic modification, to make ourselves smarter, faster, better.

    Neo-evolution is within our grasp. What will we do with it?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #1 - April 27, 2011, 01:48 AM
    Awesome video.  Thanks for sharing. Afro

    It's exciting, yet a bit scary, what is possible, and what is likely to be possible in the future.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #2 - April 27, 2011, 02:04 AM
    Man, that video was posted 7 hours ago and already has 1,000 views. The high traffic explains why it took forever to load for me.

    But that was really interesting. I think as it becomes more affordable and socially accepted we're going to have a bunch of super-humans running around.

    If it's possible, maybe they'll alter genes to produce humans capable of inhabiting current uninhabitable planets.
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1402050406

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  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #3 - April 27, 2011, 02:31 AM
    Now imagine creating human beings without the capability of feeling pain or purpose. Unconscious functioning human beings that will serve their master race, which is us.

    Is there any harm in this? Logically there seems not to be any harm in it.  
    Quote from: yeezevee on May 03, 2011, 09:40 AM
    Grouchy  what is the  good reason for picking up an innocent girl  as Osama  bin Laden?    

  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #4 - April 27, 2011, 03:28 AM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KjotRqpexA
    "In a child's power to master the multiplication table, there is more sanctity than in all your shouted "amens" and "holy holies" and "hosannas." An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral. And the advance of man's knowledge is a greater miracle than all the sticks" - Henry Drummond
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #5 - April 27, 2011, 04:54 AM
    ^

    This guy strikes me as being both an idiot and a genius at the same time. I am getting weird vibes from this one... But intresting topic non the less! yes
    Quote from: yeezevee on May 03, 2011, 09:40 AM
    Grouchy  what is the  good reason for picking up an innocent girl  as Osama  bin Laden?    

  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #6 - April 27, 2011, 07:20 AM
    A very interesting topic - but ultimately idiotic. You can't 'do' evolution: evolution is what happens to you while you're planning something else.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #7 - April 27, 2011, 07:27 AM
    The topic is about how we can now 'do' evolution and the implications of that fact.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #8 - April 27, 2011, 11:11 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on April 26, 2011, 11:20 PM
    1. To stop evolving completely
    2. To evolve naturally
    3. To control the next steps of human evolution, using genetic modification, to make ourselves smarter, faster, better.

    Neo-evolution is within our grasp. What will we do with it?


    2 and 3 are not mutually exclusive.There will always be sexual selection, which is a part of natural evolution.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #9 - April 27, 2011, 03:43 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on April 27, 2011, 07:27 AM
    The topic is about how we can now 'do' evolution and the implications of that fact.

    But that's my point , Ishina, we can't. How are we going to change the genetics of 6+ billion people significantly in the Human (end of) timescale? We are not even aware of even a minute fraction of all the factors driving and causing evolution. If anything, we cause it accidentally and not intentionally and we can only see it after the event or, at best, whilst it's happening anyway. I mean, look at the switch from a Hunter-Gatherer diet to a largely grain based one and the societal ructions and insidious digestive and other effects of that.
      It's pure Vain-glory to imagine that intention can alter evolution.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #10 - April 27, 2011, 05:17 PM
    You’re thinking small. Think big instead. Think longer timescale if you have to.

    Nobody is talking about growing extra limbs or gills. Changes will likely be subtle but significant. A ‘human’ invulnerable to cancer or with artificially increased lifespan might be as commonplace as humans born in hospital are commonplace. Already parents who get medical help with having children have the option to choose gender. We already have the capability to offer eye colour or hair colour. How soon before we can choose height or even build and metabolism? How soon before disabilities and deformities are all but non-existent in the developed world? Should choices like this become routine, significant change will be observable in a single generation, not millions of years. Human evolution isn't something that will remain a natural process, unless we decide to halt scientific intervention.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #11 - April 27, 2011, 05:22 PM
    Quote from: Stefan Udrea on April 27, 2011, 11:11 AM
    2 and 3 are not mutually exclusive.There will always be sexual selection, which is a part of natural evolution.

    I presume the argument is that when the evolution of a species is altered from its natural course, it is no longer considered natural evolution.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #12 - April 27, 2011, 05:39 PM
    thanks for the post. good to see these things once in a while.
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #13 - April 27, 2011, 06:07 PM
    On one hand I look forward to the possibilities offered by such technology which could drastically improve the quality of our lives but there is a catch.
    This is probably going to be expensive and as such available only to those who have enough resources to pay for it therefore this could easily deepen social stratification and radically divide those who have from those who don't.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #14 - April 27, 2011, 06:10 PM
    When watching things like this it always strikes me as the kind of conversations we could all be having - the higher sphere of conversation. We ought to be having healthy and fruitful discourse about where evolution will take us, what science and innovation will make possible, about the marvels of the grand universe and our place in it. Not whether or not evolution is even true or if a magic sky man did it. I wish the religions of the Earth would go find another planet to hold back.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #15 - April 27, 2011, 06:24 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on April 27, 2011, 06:07 PM
    On one hand I look forward to the possibilities offered by such technology which could drastically improve the quality of our lives but there is a catch.
    This is probably going to be expensive and as such available only to those who have enough resources to pay for it therefore this could easily deepen social stratification and radically divide those who have from those who don't.

    Yes, there are many things to consider. And we all know the Frankenstein story well.

    Though there are also foreseeable benefits, such as using funding for prevention rather than prescriptions. Medical care can be financially crippling as it stands for those on low income. It's much cheaper all round if there is nothing to fix anymore.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #16 - April 27, 2011, 07:28 PM
    No, I'm thinking bigger than you and anyone else who thinks that puny Humanity can artificially alter the course of whatever evolution will do to us.  You have to take the next step and think 'through' the step you're at now.
    As part of the natural world we have already had a significant effect on the evolution of ourselves and many other species, and possibly on the fate of the huge chemistry set that is our planet too. As a dedicated Malthusian I reckon we're nearing our endgame. Even if what you propose were possible, there are too many of us, still breeding too fast and we just don't have the time - we're almost at the top of the house of Cards now.
    And don't give me any guff about another agricultural revolution or any other fossil fuel based solutions; we've almost played that one out.
    Bacteria rule! Pretty bleak, Eh.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #17 - April 27, 2011, 07:31 PM
    Don't take this the wrong way, but did you watch the video at all?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #18 - April 27, 2011, 07:41 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on April 27, 2011, 05:17 PM
    You’re thinking small. Think big instead. Think longer timescale if you have to.

    Nobody is talking about growing extra limbs or gills. Changes will likely be subtle but significant. A ‘human’ invulnerable to cancer or with artificially increased lifespan might be as commonplace as humans born in hospital are commonplace. Already parents who get medical help with having children have the option to choose gender. We already have the capability to offer eye colour or hair colour. How soon before we can choose height or even build and metabolism? How soon before disabilities and deformities are all but non-existent in the developed world? Should choices like this become routine, significant change will be observable in a single generation, not millions of years. Human evolution isn't something that will remain a natural process, unless we decide to halt scientific intervention.

    You're confusing the grand scope of evolution with the mere artificial manipulation of genes. Looks OK on paper but superficial.
     Anyway, we just don't know what selective factors are acting upon us, let alone whether certain gene mutations which appear bad for the individual might be useful for the future of Human survival; take sickle-cell Anaemia for example. We need every type of Human with all their apparent frailties: the more possibilities for survival in a changing world, the better.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #19 - April 27, 2011, 07:44 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on April 27, 2011, 07:31 PM
    Don't take this the wrong way, but did you watch the video at all?

    No. I'm not impressed by people who haven't stood the test of time. But, in fairness to your majesty, I'll do so now'
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #20 - April 27, 2011, 07:50 PM
    You didn't watch it? No wonder I'm having to explain the point of it to you and no wonder we are talking over each other.

    Quote from: sojournerlumus on April 27, 2011, 07:28 PM
    No, I'm thinking bigger than you and anyone else who thinks that puny Humanity can artificially alter the course of whatever evolution will do to us.  You have to take the next step and think 'through' the step you're at now.
    As part of the natural world we have already had a significant effect on the evolution of ourselves and many other species, and possibly on the fate of the huge chemistry set that is our planet too. As a dedicated Malthusian I reckon we're nearing our endgame.

    It doesn't seem like you're talking about biological evolution. Malthusianism is about a social/economical problem, not a biological one.

    Quote from: sojournerlumus on April 27, 2011, 07:41 PM
    You're confusing the grand scope of evolution with the mere artificial manipulation of genes. Looks OK on paper but superficial.

    Define evolution.

    Quote from: sojournerlumus on April 27, 2011, 07:44 PM
    No. I'm not impressed by people who haven't stood the test of time.

    What?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #21 - April 27, 2011, 08:41 PM
    Just as I thought. Look, Harvey's got too high an opinion of Medicine and the medical profession. The fact, as I see it, is that all the medical intervention in the world changes things hardly one iota in the grand scheme of things. At the personal level, in a small portion of the world, it seems to be doing a good job but in the World population at large there's never enough of it to affect evolution (note: I'm not going to split Evolution down into Harvey's artificial classifications). So it would be with the manipulation of genes.
    I don't go for his accelerator effect either. I mean, why would you even want to do that even if it were possible (and it's very unlikely). You'd only produce a 'master race' and we all know where that leads.
    Malthus took a very biological view of his research. Social and economic policies cause populations to rise and fall, sometimes quite dramatically. And they are prime-movers where War is concerned. How biological do you want to be?
     His comments and conclusions about the recovery and ultimate increase of populations, post war are some of the early influences on the young Darwin.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #22 - April 27, 2011, 09:06 PM
    You seem to be quite enamoured by Malthusianism. What I find strange is that an 18th century apocalyptic forecast in itself holds more sway over you than modern solutions to the very problems the forecast proposes. You are welcome to be a pessimist, though. I like a more inspired and positive outlook for the future, myself. It is from bright thinking that innovation and progress is born.

    Though, what that has to do with this topic I do not know. Evolution doesn’t happen uniformly across a whole species. Nobody ever said it did. Typically, it is isolated communities that alter within their own stock, favouring some feature or other until it becomes a defining characteristic. It seems like you're chasing your tail on this one.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #23 - April 28, 2011, 08:00 AM
    Malthus was a realist and his conclusions were based upon close observation. When one is young one is idealistic and what one wants often seems like reality. That's fine, but maturity brings with it a measured and reasoned caution based upon ones own observations of what is reasonably achievable. That is reality.
    As a bi-polar who has been unreasonably optimistic in my time(s) and equally unreasonably pessimistic in my cups, I know what I'm talking about.
    We are no more and no less than the simplest organism on the planet and never will be even though we spend our entire lives at war with them and they with us.
    As far as Humanity is concerned, history shows that isolated communities ultimately fail as they are increasingly and invariably subsumed into the merging whole. Whether they disappear or whether they change the societies that absorb them is determined by what 'defining feature' they offer.
    How do you define progress? Do you value quantity or quality: more people at the expense of everything else? Is that 'progress".
     Massive bulldozing of the natural environment to impoverish it through simplification to suit our needs: is that 'innovation?
    We can genetically re-engineer ourselves and a few essential food plants and animals, but for how long will that be viable?
    I reckon it's the predictable fate of our species to increase, plateau and then crash to an asymptotic level - it's more certain than 'An asteroid did it'.  One more population doubling should see us over the precipice.
    And before you think that's all hooey; it's happened to Island communities before - they outbred food availability and then ate each other.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #24 - April 28, 2011, 08:03 AM
    Roll over and play dead then.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #25 - April 28, 2011, 08:56 AM
    I've done death already, it's not so bad. So I'll just say, No, we're not ready.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #26 - April 28, 2011, 09:18 AM
    Do you think we are also not ready to alter the course of evolution for other species?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #27 - April 28, 2011, 10:06 AM
    Not if their wild-type exists somewhere else. Most of our cultivars revert to wild type if their continuing development is neglected or overlooked.
    Now, if we could build a complete new simple organism from scratch, cell wall and everything, then I'd be impressed. I know it's already been done using parts from a contrived bacterial 'scrapyard' but it's just a step on the way to building the complete what-ever-it-is.
     I suspect it may be easier than trying to alter a whole existing, complex genome although I don't have any properly informed grounds for saying this.
    Perhaps, though , on reflection, such an organism would inevitably escape into the environment and interact with other life and that would, on all the evidence, change their evolution, possibly in a ripple chain effect or an explosive expansion . I'm sure the results would be bloody interesting at any rate.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #28 - April 28, 2011, 11:07 AM
    Wouldn't you consider the difference between a 180-pound English Mastiff...



    ...and the two-pound Chihuahua...



    ... an example of how we have already altered the course of one species' evolution?

    And since you're a fan of Malthusianism, what do you think about Genetically Modified crops?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
     Reply #29 - April 28, 2011, 11:41 AM
    This sounds interesting(though i didnt watch the video because im using a smartphone but i will bookmarked it).

    Pardon my ignorance, would that cure a baldness?
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
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