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 Topic: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation

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  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     OP - May 11, 2011, 08:25 AM
    Why is it when you quote the violent/gory verses in the Quran/hadith, you always get the same rubbish that it's being quoted out of context? And how come always the good stuff is well within the context? Either that or you have to learn arabic to properly interpret the verses?

    Also muslims deny almost all the translations available online when quoted in a debate while debunking miracles. Does this mean Pickthall, Yusuf Ali etc were dumbasses who knew jack about Arabic?

    /rant



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  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #1 - May 11, 2011, 09:15 AM
    That rather depends. Any attempt at translating a work in a foreign language will lose nuances somewhere. And then you have the translators' own eccentricities to contend with. Yusuf "I love the KJV, me" Ali being something of a case in point. Can I recommend Abdel Haleem's translation if you want something somewhat more accessible?

    Short version: previous attempts to contextualise Qur'anic verses are why we have a body of Tafsir literature. There's nothing stopping you from taking those secondary sources of religion apart, because once you do that, you can begin to pick apart any claims made on behalf of a verse. Not the easiest approach, but it does at least make your argument far less refutable by Muslims.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #2 - May 11, 2011, 12:30 PM
    Translations are good enough when they help to hide the not so lovely verses. I personally know a woman that converted to Islam as a result of being deceived by the English version of the Koran. And if Allah is all for Islam, why did he allow misinterpretations of the Koran? To mislead the non-believers and infidels of course. Allah is a serpentine whore.
    Man created God in his image : intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent.
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #3 - May 11, 2011, 12:50 PM
    Every translation will either give an accurate, or a better (ie sanitised) portrayal or the original arabic.

    Think about it, would any Muslim translator translate the Quran in a way which makes it sound WORSE than the original arabic?

    So to sum up, the Quran when read and understood in it's original arabic is much WORSE than any translation out there.
    .
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #4 - May 11, 2011, 01:13 PM
    Quote from: hypexmuslim on May 11, 2011, 12:30 PM
    Translations are good enough when they help to hide the not so lovely verses. I personally know a woman that converted to Islam as a result of being deceived by the English version of the Koran. And if Allah is all for Islam, why did he allow misinterpretations of the Koran? To mislead the non-believers and infidels of course. Allah is a serpentine whore.


    Has she stuck on or left islam? Most people would be too ashamed to admit they have committed a mistake.
    Indeed Koran benefits a great deal from misinterpretations and obfuscations.  
    Crystal clarity would endanger Islam's future,as then even a total idiot would be able to see the truth and run away from it.
    So we will have to endure ridiculous statements like''Islam liberates women'' made by women in full Afghani burkhas, for quite some time into the distant future.


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #5 - May 11, 2011, 01:21 PM
    Quote from: Shahid Raza on May 11, 2011, 12:50 PM
    So to sum up, the Quran when read and understood in it's original arabic is much WORSE than any translation out there.


    I think we are in danger of violent agreement. My point is that in order to debate a Muslim with reference to the Qur'an, you need to show him what he is accepting before you can tell him why he is wrong.

    Translating a text - especially a text that has had a body of interpretation grow around it that has since determined how it is understood - is not as simple as the translation of mere sentences. The problem becomes hairier with the age of the text, and whether intermediate layers of translation are involved; the history of the Old and New Testaments comes to mind.

    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #6 - May 11, 2011, 01:21 PM
    Quote from: hypexmuslim on May 11, 2011, 12:30 PM
    Allah is a serpentine whore.

     

    001_wub
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #7 - May 11, 2011, 01:22 PM

    Freshly coined phrases and original, startling use of words turns me on  Tongue
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #8 - May 11, 2011, 05:00 PM
     thnkyu peeps  far away hug will take care of those while debating em' in future, inshallah piggy


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  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #9 - May 11, 2011, 06:36 PM
    Unfortunately she is still a Muslim. But she's is researching the whole thing all over again.
    Man created God in his image : intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent.
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #10 - May 13, 2011, 10:06 AM
    I studied classical arabic for a short while - it became clear to me that the language very rich, poetic and nuanced, not clinically precise like English - it lends itself to metaphor. Unfortunately most "scholars" when translating the Qur'an have attributed disgusting meanings to Quranic verses and *they* have been the ones taking things out of context imo.

    I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post a link, but check this website out to see what I am talking about:

    http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #11 - May 13, 2011, 01:16 PM
    Quote from: sofian86 on May 13, 2011, 10:06 AM
    I studied classical arabic for a short while - it became clear to me that the language very rich, poetic and nuanced, not clinically precise like English - it lends itself to metaphor.

    How exactly do you judge whether certain verse should be understood literally or metaphorically?
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #12 - May 13, 2011, 01:22 PM
    I've always seen these as nothing more than excuses:

    It's out of context

    It's metaphorical

    You need to understand Arabic

    You need to speak to a Scholar

    Allah guides those who he wishes

    Your heart is sealed

    Blah Blah Blah
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #13 - May 13, 2011, 03:30 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on May 13, 2011, 01:16 PM
    How exactly do you judge whether certain verse should be understood literally or metaphorically?


    The following to me are truisms:

    1)everyone should be treated equally
    2)god is fair, just and good and would therefore command his subjects to be these things
    3)we should apply to ourselves the same standards we apply to others
    4)we are responsible for the predictable consequences of our actions - we shouldn't harm others through the course of our actions

    So when I see translations that supposedly sanction things like wife beating, terrorism, slavery I know they're wrong...
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #14 - May 13, 2011, 03:54 PM
    Do you recall your intro thread and issues you raised there sofian? Among others The tailor responded in that thread and offered his perspective. What is your opinion on what he said?

    Quote from: sofian86 on May 13, 2011, 03:30 PM
    2)god is fair, just and good and would therefore command his subjects to be these things

    God wants his 'subjects' to be immoral?

    Quote from: sofian86 on May 13, 2011, 03:30 PM
    3)we should apply to ourselves the same standards we apply to others

    What if others do not want to be treated according to the standards you might want to apply to yourself?

    Quote from: sofian86 on May 13, 2011, 03:30 PM
    So when I see translations that supposedly sanction things like wife beating, terrorism, slavery I know they're wrong...

    How do you know that such viewpoint is objectively correct?

    What if god is evil and what if Quran taken literally is indeed his true word?

  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #15 - May 13, 2011, 03:55 PM
    Quote from: sofian86 on May 13, 2011, 03:30 PM
    The following to me are truisms:

    1)everyone should be treated equally
    2)god is fair, just and good and would therefore command his subjects to be these things
    3)we should apply to ourselves the same standards we apply to others
    4)we are responsible for the predictable consequences of our actions - we shouldn't harm others through the course of our actions

    So when I see translations that supposedly sanction things like wife beating, terrorism, slavery I know they're wrong...


    Or quran sucks iblis balls.

    Is it written anywhere that all this shit is metaphorical and the good parts are taken to be literally or is it just your view?


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  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #16 - May 13, 2011, 07:19 PM
    Kenan

    Yes, I recall Tailor's post - I promise to read through it and come back to you.

    In matters of belief, I don't think it's possible to be objective - it might sound silly to you but I look at the cosmos as part of my day job and can't help but marvel at its beauty, and I always think to myself, could this have just, on its own, come to be? Objectively it may not be the truth, but to me it is. 

    Points 3 and 4 are however are universal truisms - there is probably a biological basis for them. When reading the Qur'an, we always have to be mindful of them...
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #17 - May 13, 2011, 08:24 PM
    Quote from: sofian86 on May 13, 2011, 07:19 PM
    In matters of belief, I don't think it's possible to be objective ...

    Lets forget about beliefs for a moment. I simply stated that morality cannot be experienced via coercion. Do you disagree with that?

    Quote from: sofian86 on May 13, 2011, 07:19 PM
    ... it might sound silly to you but I look at the cosmos as part of my day job and can't help but marvel at its beauty, and I always think to myself, could this have just, on its own, come to be? Objectively it may not be the truth, but to me it is.

    It doesn't sound silly to me at all. I find this universe intriguing and wonderful as well. But I do hope that you understand that marvelling at wonders of universe does not imply that there is such a thing as god.

    Quote from: sofian86 on May 13, 2011, 07:19 PM
     
    Points 3 and 4 are however are universal truisms - there is probably a biological basis for them. When reading the Qur'an, we always have to be mindful of them...

    It's not quite that simple when it comes to point 3. Like I said - what if others do not want to be treated according to the standards you might want to apply to yourself?

    Besides is it not obvious that the teachings of Quran are clearly based on Bronze age morality - something we should have left behind long ago and as such is simply a relic of a past?
    Instead of trying to wriggle around various issues you (as a child of Kantian rationality) find abhorrent (starting with the very nature of god as defined in Quran) wouldn't it be easier to admit that the teachings of Quran simply are what they say they are?
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #18 - May 13, 2011, 09:11 PM
    its always one of these

    i)   It’s a misquote, anyway until you learn to speak Arabic, then how do you know it’s an accurate translation?
     
    ii)   It’s out of context, and was only meant to apply to that day and age

    iii)   It’s a test of our faith to see if we will still believe despite the contradicting evidence, and only those with true knowledge and faith will pass it. 

    iv)   Allah has infinitely more knowledge than us, so who are you to question? 

    v)   And if you disagree with any of the above, then dont come back to me, read the tafsir and go and find somebody more knowledgeable who can provide you with an answer that satisfies you

    vi)   And if (v) doesn’t work, you haven’t tried hard enough, keep trying until you are convinced I am right.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #19 - May 13, 2011, 10:14 PM
    Please make that into a decision tree. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #20 - May 13, 2011, 10:34 PM
    f
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #21 - May 13, 2011, 10:44 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 13, 2011, 09:11 PM
    its always one of these

    i)   It’s a misquote, anyway until you learn to speak Arabic, then how do you know it’s an accurate translation?
     
    ii)   It’s out of context, and was only meant to apply to that day and age

    iii)   It’s a test of our faith to see if we will still believe despite the contradicting evidence, and only those with true knowledge and faith will pass it. 

    iv)   Allah has infinitely more knowledge than us, so who are you to question? 

    v)   And if you disagree with any of the above, then dont come back to me, read the tafsir and go and find somebody more knowledgeable who can provide you with an answer that satisfies you

    vi)   And if (v) doesn’t work, you haven’t tried hard enough, keep trying until you are convinced I am right.



    (iii) and (vi) take the cake!   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #22 - May 13, 2011, 11:05 PM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 13, 2011, 10:34 PM
    Funny. More so given what follows therefrom. You carry on as though the time sanctified tradition of blowing smoke is peculiar to the resurrection-men. Fiddlesticks! In no domain of the polemical arts, political or theological, is this kind of thing unknown. I've seen people on this very board deny the transparent meaning of their words when the room temperature gets a little hot. And that is among people divided by a common language.


    I shared the conclusion, but not the premises. Did the following not make that obvious? And as to my resurrection-man exceptionalism, I think you may be inferring too much.

    Quote from: Mount A Bison
    All men find it highly servicable to cry foul when the plain meaning of their words run contrary to the taboos of the community in which they find themselves.


    Are you accusing me of something? No ATM for you.

    Quote from: Mount A Bison
    The Fatimas of the world are simply reflecting the same dissimulation when they remould sura 4 verse 4 as just a feminist critique of the gender relations of pagan Arabia. Classic. But nothing to marvel at by the standards which prevail in the disputes of the political cosmos. But what does a little chit like you know about such things?


    About religiously-motivated dissembling? A lifetime of opening my ears and holding my nose, to borrow a phrase. (Isn't hyperbole great?)

    About disputes in the political cosmos? It's been a long time since I was an undergraduate. Now, as then, I defer to the better-informed, and let my own cognitive biases lead me to whatever conclusions I might reach.

    edit: Added rhetorical question of dubious rhetorical value. Must stop doing that.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #23 - May 14, 2011, 12:20 AM
    q
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #24 - May 14, 2011, 02:50 AM
    q
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #25 - May 14, 2011, 05:53 AM
    Quote from: hypexmuslim on May 11, 2011, 06:36 PM
    Unfortunately she is still a Muslim. But she's is researching the whole thing all over again.


    “You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”  ---Abraham Lincoln

    Islam is threatening to do the impossible


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #26 - May 14, 2011, 06:07 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 13, 2011, 09:11 PM
    its always one of these

    i)   It’s a misquote, anyway until you learn to speak Arabic, then how do you know it’s an accurate translation?
     
    ii)   It’s out of context, and was only meant to apply to that day and age

    iii)   It’s a test of our faith to see if we will still believe despite the contradicting evidence, and only those with true knowledge and faith will pass it. 

    iv)   Allah has infinitely more knowledge than us, so who are you to question? 

    v)   And if you disagree with any of the above, then dont come back to me, read the tafsir and go and find somebody more knowledgeable who can provide you with an answer that satisfies you

    vi)   And if (v) doesn’t work, you haven’t tried hard enough, keep trying until you are convinced I am right.


    So true  Cheesy


    Youtube
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #27 - May 14, 2011, 09:12 AM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 14, 2011, 12:20 AM
    As for cognitive biases, who ain't got them? The very fact you think politics may be conducted on a lofty plane absent the wishful thinking in which we decry the hollerings and whoopings of faith makes one's point. Show me a guy without any biases and I will show you an evolutionarily advanced mammal.


    I'm not sure that I do. I find any idea with teleological aspects suspect, and tend to think of political movements as secular religions, where ideology takes the place of theology; each has its own prophets, clergy and laity. I don't think that this broad organizational similarity is accidental.

    Deferring to the better-informed on matters of fact is one thing, on matters of interpretation another. That I depend on my own cognitive biases to tell me where the border between these two lies means that the only person I can hope to satisfy is myself..
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #28 - May 15, 2011, 01:09 AM
    q
  • Re: Quoting out of context/misinterpretation
     Reply #29 - May 15, 2011, 09:34 AM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on May 15, 2011, 01:09 AM
    But I go much further in my epistemological indictment than you because let's face it my sweet: You are a pussy. To my eye all systems of belief, theological, moral or political are born not out of the cool calculations of what is called amusingly rationality, but of the passions. Put bluntly, the bulk of men believe what is convenient, what is comforting, what is soothing. Theology is just the most conspicuous manifestation of this principle. I include myself in this analysis. A careful survey of my stock of ideas reveals that the means by which I came to acquire them are as honest and scrupulous as the means by which a burglar comes by his loot.


    I've already said that I'm the only person that my cognitive calculus can satisfy; what makes you think that I deify rationality? Are you really that hard of reading?

    Let me spell its implications out for you; I believe that all decisions we make as humans are, at heart, aesthetic ones. Logic, to my eye, is essentially a process of aesthetic arbitration; that it concerns claims to truth only tells me that we can be seduced by statements that may be pleasing to us but lack axiomatic coherence (which in turn is aesthetically unsatisfactory to one who has accepted the relevant axioms).

    I can't make any claims to originality of thought either. But then, few can, so I can live with that.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
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