Mustafa Akyol on TED

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Mustafa Akyol on TED
OP - May 26, 2011, 08:09 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tUn_uoYKoE

ah how you are full of shit

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Re: Mustafa Akyol on TED
Reply #1 - May 26, 2011, 08:19 PM

Mustafa Aykol - wiki

Quote
He used to be an outspoken promoter of intelligent design [4] and was identified as a former spokesman for Bilim Arastirma Vakfi, an Islamic creationist group, started by Adnan Oktar.[5] But Akyol later noted [6] that he ended all his "cooperation with [Bilim Arastirma Vakfi]... due to some serious disagreements on issues other than intelligent design." He was also affiliated with the Discovery Institute.[7] He has testified in the Kansas evolution hearings in favor of introducing Intelligent Design [8] and has managed to arrange a state-sponsored Intelligent Design conference in Istanbul.[9]

Intelligent Design, eh?

Just skipped through parts of the talk, to get the gist. Not really saying anything clever.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Mustafa Akyol on TED
Reply #2 - May 26, 2011, 08:28 PM

Quote from: billy on May 26, 2011, 08:19 PM

Mustafa Aykol - wiki

Intelligent Design, eh?

Just skipped through parts of the talk, to get the gist. Not really saying anything clever.

what do you expect from a fellow who follows this felon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIIv_2bS1Yg

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Re: Mustafa Akyol on TED
Reply #3 - May 26, 2011, 08:38 PM

Why didn't he talk about his belief in creationism and intelligent design, at the TED conference?

Oh yeah, he would be laughed out of town, better off with this instead.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Mustafa Akyol on TED
Reply #4 - May 26, 2011, 10:06 PM

Quote from: billy on May 26, 2011, 08:38 PM
Why didn't he talk about his belief in creationism and intelligent design, at the TED conference?

Oh yeah, he would be laughed out of town, better off with this instead.

Well he is trying secure his place religious rightist groups of Abrahamic religions and taht should be fine. Muslims and Islam must be given space if not time to modify and modernize itself/themselves BUT NOTHING IS UNQUESTIONABLE., Hence Mr. Mustafa Aykol and his likes should have freedom to do what they are doing.

But I have the reason to tell him to read Quran carefully without going in to hadith..sunnah and Islamic history as local cultural influence on Islam.

The book is rubbish... as simple as that., at best you can sing songs..

I am sure he knows it well that QURAN IS NOT WORD OF alalh/god.. but he can not spell that out. That is the tragedy of Muslims unlike the believers of Christianity and Judaism..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxW3orOdfHk

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Re: Mustafa Akyol on TED
Reply #5 - May 27, 2011, 12:21 AM

Bullshit. Men and women do not pray unsegregated in the Grand Mosque in Makkah. But what is true is that there is far less segregation there than in any other mosque in Saudi Arabia (when the pilgrims are not praying). But that's because the authirities feel they have no choice. The rituals have to be performed around the Kaaba by both men and women, hence mixing of the sexes is inevitable.

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Re: Mustafa Akyol on TED
Reply #6 - May 29, 2011, 07:46 PM

Unquestionably, its all bullshit, but what else can ideas based on bullshit beget but bullshit? I still prefer this viewpoint over what he labels "Islamism." I feel like there is more room for progress here and would be more palatable to Muslims than straight up disbelief. Encouraging a "movement" like this may make living life for non-believers a little bit better.
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Re: Mustafa Akyol on TED
Reply #7 - May 29, 2011, 08:29 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on May 26, 2011, 10:06 PM

The book is rubbish... as simple as that., at best you can sing songs..

I am sure he knows it well that QURAN IS NOT WORD OF alalh/god.. but he can not spell that out. That is the tragedy of Muslims unlike the believers of Christianity and Judaism..

Indeed that's a big tragedy and is the main reason for Islam not reforming itself.

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Mustafa Akyol on TED
Reply #8 - September 26, 2017, 06:18 PM

Mustafa Akyol arrested, briefly, in Malaysia: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/turkish-writer-mustafa-akyol-freed#EUlfyVUTe33gtSQx.97
Quote
KUALA LUMPUR, Sept 26 — Turkish author and columnist Mustafa Akyol was released from overnight detention this afternoon after questioning by religious authorities over his lectures here.

Suhakam commissioner Jerald Joseph said the Federal Territories Islamic Affairs Department (Jawi) interviewed Akyol at a police station in Jalan Travers here this morning for allegedly “preaching” without their permission.

“He’s already released,” Jerald told Malay Mail Online. “He’s quite distressed and wants to leave as soon as possible”.

Jerald said Akyol was moved around last night between police stations and the Jawi office after the Turkish writer was prevented by immigration authorities at the Kuala Lumpur International Airport from boarding a flight to Istanbul.

“He says he did not preach, it was an academic conference. He didn't go to any mosque,” said Jerald, when asked what Akyol told Jawi.

“We want Malaysia to be a thriving academic space where people can discuss and debate. That definitely is a setback for us.”

Jerald said an arrest warrant was put out for Akyol last night because the Turkish author and speaker did not answer Jawi’s summons for questioning.

The organiser of the seminars featuring Akyol, Muslim group Islamic Renaissance Front, said the Federal Territories Islamic Affairs Department had accused Akyol of committing an offence under the Federal Territories Shariah law for teaching about Islam without official credentials from the Federal Territories Islamic Council.

On Sunday, Akyol spoke at a roundtable discussion at the Royal Selangor Golf Club about apostasy and gave a public lecture at the Renaissance Hotel here about the relevance of democracy.

The author of Islam without extremes: A Muslim case for liberty, a 2011 book that argues for Islamic liberalism, was scheduled to speak at another lecture yesterday at the Nottingham University’s Malaysian campus here about “the Islamic Jesus”, but it was cancelled last-minute.

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Reply #9 - September 26, 2017, 08:02 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tUn_uoYKoE

that is a good Ted Talk by Mustafa Akyol

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Reply #10 - September 27, 2017, 02:41 PM

I agree with Aykol on the external sources for Muslim observations and practices, some of which are today viewed as objectionable. But he doesn't go far enough. Islam is entirely drawn from Jewish, Christian and Zoroastrian sources. It added nothing, and distorted plenty. While its source cultures and religions either matured and changed (Judaism and Christianity) or virtually died out (Zoroastrianism) Islam stuck with what it vacuumed up from 7th century Mesopotamia.
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Reply #11 - September 27, 2017, 03:22 PM

Quote from: Unifier on September 27, 2017, 02:41 PM
~~I agree with Aykol on the external sources for Muslim observations and practices, some of which are today viewed as objectionable. But he doesn't go far enough.~~

What is that you want him to say Unifier? suppose you were him.,what will you say about Islam??

Quote
Islam is entirely drawn from Jewish, Christian and Zoroastrian sources.

by those words you are saying nothing new.,Quran itself says that

Quote
~~It added nothing, and distorted plenty~~.

Nope ., unless you show me verses of bible and verses of Quran ad compare/contrast to show the distortion I will not trust your hand waving statements .,And Sure Quran added/highlighted a very important statement That " JESUS IS NOT SON OF GOD OR GOD" whatever that god may be ...

Quote
~~While its source cultures and religions either matured and changed~~ (Judaism and Christianity) or virtually died out (Zoroastrianism) Islam stuck with what it vacuumed up from 7th century Mesopotamia.

Look NOT JUST ISLAM., all the faiths stuck along with their faith heads all the way to the end of 20th century and that goes to every faith ., The fact is, 20th century logic/rational thinking of enlightened folks along with tremendous advancement in science and technology made western Jews and Western Christians to calm down and control faith heads by the use of that fundamental freedom of expression. I agree Muslims and Islam is far behind in the present time in that aspect..

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Reply #12 - September 27, 2017, 07:00 PM

Yeezevee for the sake of good manners and continued dialogue I will admit my post was a bit curt and dismissive. I apologize for that.

For the point about the Koran adding nothing and distorting plenty: it is not just a case of copying stories from biblical sources and changing this or that: like writing that ancient Egypt practiced crucifiction (which was exclusively a Roman / Byzantine punishment). It is that, for example the Koran sanctions violence against non-believers which is nowhere to be found in the NT. Infamous Sura Al-Anfal (spoils of war) is only understandable as a manual of war - with instructions on how to physically defeat your enemies using terror as a God sanctioned tactic.

A man we both admire: Hamed Abdel-Samad has said that Christianity was morally in pretty good shape until it was accepted by Constantine and became the official religion of the Roman Empire. I would be a little harsher than Hamed. Christian mobs could be quite violent in eliminating tokens of classical culture. But it is correct that the immediate disciples and followers of Jesus of Nazareth did not lead armies and conquer territory by sowing terror. They walked, spoke and sacrifice their lives to violent death at the hands of the officialdom of the day. A very different story to Islam.

Your account of the development of secularism is way off. The first schools were established by religious people (Jews and Christians in Mesopotamia). The first universities were established and paid for by religious people (Oxford, Cambridge, The Sorbonne, Harvard, Yale). The struggle between faith and reason lasted centuries, sometimes argued about and sometimes fought about. Sometimes the battle raged inside individuals like Newton. Several contributing causes of the decline of Christianity in Europe and the growth of secularism co-exist: WW1, State Socialism replacing Church charity, along with the spread and achievement of pure and applied science. But if you expand the question to the world - Christianity continued to grow throughout the 20th century - mostly in the Southern hemisphere.

When I say that Islam added nothing - I mean nothing of value. Open to being educated on the moral teachings of Islam that surpass those of Judaism and Christianity.
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Reply #13 - September 27, 2017, 08:11 PM

Quote
A man we both admire: Hamed Abdel-Samad has said that Christianity was morally in pretty good shape until it was accepted by Constantine and became the official religion of the Roman Empire. I would be a little harsher than Hamed. Christian mobs could be quite violent in eliminating tokens of classical culture. But it is correct that the immediate disciples and followers of Jesus of Nazareth did not lead armies and conquer territory by sowing terror. They walked, spoke and sacrifice their lives to violent death at the hands of the officialdom of the day. A very different story to Islam.

While I understand the point that you are making and would go as far as to agree with you that Islam’s codification of scriptures written during its period of political power is problematic to say the least, the effective result of your argument is the same for both Christianity and Islam. Namely, once religions gain political power, they become tools of oppression– particularly when those religions include exclusive claims to Truth.

Put in other words, the Messiah of Nazareth simply dies sooner in his legend than does the Arab prophet in his. The respective faiths that grow from those legends follow a similar trajectory in terms of peacefulness and violence nonetheless.
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Reply #14 - September 27, 2017, 09:40 PM

Ibn Bilal The lives of Jesus of Nazareth and the Prophet Mohamed could not have been more different. One a messianic teacher who eschewed violence the other a warrior and leader of armies. One never married (as far as we know), the other had several wives, concubines and female rape victims. In the recorded reaction of several Jewish and Christian contemporaries, Mohamed's claim to be a prophet of God while simultaneously being a warrior leader were treated with extreme skepticism.

I offer this not to say in sum of all history followers of Islam were more violent than followers of Jesus Christ. That would not be true and I'm not claiming it.

But the relationship with secular power and violent warfare has a distinctly different tradition in both faiths. It is there from the very beginning in Islam with the founder of the religion. For Christianity it was only 300 years after the death of the founder that spiritual and secular power became intertwined.
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Reply #15 - September 27, 2017, 11:06 PM

Quote from: Unifier on September 27, 2017, 09:40 PM
Ibn Bilal The lives of Jesus of Nazareth and the Prophet Mohamed could not have been more different. .................

what does that mean and to say that you must give year by year account of their lives., otherwise you are just a believer ..a faith head ....and throwing your faith around..

here..read this folder on Quran and my thoughts on it ..

https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.0

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Reply #16 - September 27, 2017, 11:15 PM

As I'm assuming you are aware, the first 10 years of the mission of Muhammad, as the story goes, were vastly different form the last 13. The revelations purported to be from the beginning of his career in the Meccan period rival most teachings in the New Testament in terms of exhortations towards social justice and devotion to the Abrahamic concept of God (and damnation for disbelievers.)

It is worth noting that, according to the sources, even the Christian Negus of the Christian Kingdom of Abyssinia declared that the difference between the followers of Muhammad and his own subjects was as thin as a line in the sand, implying that the difference was primarily theological in nature and not of much practical consequence.

True or not, the legend of Muhammad does not end in the Meccan period, however, and the nature of the recitations attributed to him change drastically.

Comparing the meek figure of Jesus to the figure of Muhammad in the Medinite period is inappropriate precisely because Jesus never assumes a role of power during his mission. The alleged Jewish Messiah had no choice but to support the morality of the weak because he himself was in a position of weakness, as the storytellers would have you believe. I contend that given the radical nature of his teachings, had his legend seen him overseeing a period of political power, his character would likely have been portrayed as violently as Muhammad's in the pursuit of his aims. This is evident by the violent nature of the many emperors, popes, and conquerors who claimed to work on behalf of the myth of Jesus after the peaceful savior's worldly departure.
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Reply #17 - September 28, 2017, 03:34 PM

Ibn Bilal - the religious historian Philip Jenkins has made a similar point about Abyssinian Christianity and Islam in his book 'The Lost History Of Christianity'. He writes on page 194:
'A modern Christian transported back in time to the Near East of the 6th or 7th century would be struck at the many resemblances between the Chrisitanity of that time and the modern world of Islam. It is not always easy to tell whether Muslims were influenced by practices they witnessed in Ethiopia or the Eastern Syriac world, because the 2 were so closely related, but somewhere they observed the Christian practice of fasting, which shaped the Islamic custom of Ramadam ....... this was in fact close to the oldest Christian practice of Lent. Here, for instance is the Ethiopian practice as followed in the 16th century: "This fast follows the old law, for they do not eat at midday, and when the sun is setting they go to church and confess and communicate and then go to supper".'

In Yemen in the 4th century Christian women wore veils. It goes on and on. We should look at ourselves as different sects of the one true faith. That I believe.

Re: Jesus practicing 'taqqiya' just because he was in a weak position. A very Muslim perspective if I may say so. The ideal arrangements for spiritual and secular power is a complex topic. But Jesus himself gave direction that strongly suggests worldly power was not his goal at all. John 18:36 (my kingdom not of this world) and Matthew 22:21 (Render unto Caesar that which is Caeser's). Shortly after 9/11 I attended a lecture by the Middle Eastern and Islamic scholar Bernard Lewis at Barnes and Noble on Union Square. He made exactly this point - that Islam had no similar statements about separation of power. A Palestinian gentleman sitting next to be nodded vigorously and nudged me as Lewis made this point.
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Reply #18 - September 28, 2017, 05:11 PM

You misunderstand me if you think my point was to say that Jesus was “practicing taqiyya.” You also may struggle to understand my point of view if you contend that the stories in the NT, and indeed in the Sirah, are detailed and historically reliable accounts of the lives the figures portrayed, as opposed to stories crafted and compiled after the fact with embellishments and appeals to previous myths meant to achieve particular aims.

But I won’t waste my time trying to convince you of that second point.

Back to the first point about the character of Jesus being deliberately deceitful about his ambitions, then I don’t think that is the case whether we accept the story as historical or not. Instead, my point is that the circumstance and setting of the myth itself meant that the Jesus character had no alternative but to be non-violent and pacifist. There was no radical shift in political power at the time the Jesus story is set and the character had neither the wherewithal nor the time to bring one about.

As rebellious as the character was against the status quo, there was simply no other place where his opponents could have faced retribution apart from in a hereafter and no other place where his followers could have realized any semblance of success apart from in some heavenly kingdom. They remained an oppressed and downtrodden group, and the myth reflects this in its appeals to success outside of the realm of observable reality. Blessed are the poor in this alternate reality.

There are similarities here with early Islamic doctrine. Just as you quote scripture above suggesting that Jesus did not seek a kingdom in this world, Muhammad is allegedly told by God to “keep yourself patient along with those who call upon their Lord in the morning and the evening, seeking His countenance. And let not your eyes pass beyond them, desiring adornments of the worldly life.” And “Do not ever strain your eyes longing toward that by which We have given as enjoyment to some parties of them, the splendor of the life of this world through which We test them: but the provision of your Lord is better and more enduring.”

And many similar verses through which the Prophet is commanded not to seek any worldly benefit for his mission, insisting instead that his reward is only through God. There are also verses in which believers are instructed to “restrain their hands (from violence) and establish prayer,” as well as to “not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and disregard the harm they inflict, and [instead] put your trust in God. Sufficient is God as a trustee.”

You could quote similar verses for hours, and had the legend of Muhammad ended there – let’s say, for the sake of example, with the successful murder of Muhammad by the Quraish on the eve of his departure from Makkah, then a Muslim might be able to make similar claims about Muhammad’s role in the subsequent violent period his faith underwent.

Things only switch up once the tables turn in the legend, giving us verses like the ones you alluded to in Surah Anfal in which the prophet (and subsequently the ruling Caliphs *ding, ding: motive?*) are entitled to 1/5 of the war booty.

The difference here is that in the Jesus myth, Jesus is actually killed off before the people subscribing to his faith gain real political power and begin killing, oppressing, exploiting, and enslaving people. It’s interesting to note that even in the myth of the meek and respectable Jesus, Caesar still gets his due. (*ding, ding: motive?*)
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Reply #19 - September 28, 2017, 05:35 PM

You could quote similar verses for hours, and had the legend of Muhammad ended there – let’s say, for the sake of example, with his successful murder of Muhammad by the Quraish on the eve of his departure from Makkah, then a Muslim might be able to make similar claims about Muhammad’s role in the subsequent violent period his faith underwent.

Interesting point to consider, and yes it might have been a whole different story had the above happened. But I think you misjudge the times in which Jesus spoke, the powers he was speaking to and whether that influenced the nature of his message. We don't know much about Jesus 30 year life prior to his 3 year ministry. But John the Baptist who initially proclaimed Jesus as the anointed messenger of God, the eagerly awaited Jewish Messiah acted just like one of the earlier prophets ... living in the desert eating locusts and wild honey. A kind of madman by ordinary standards perhaps. But the point is that theology was front and center for John, Jesus and the Jewish religious leaders: Scribes and Pharisees. One of the few stories we have of Jesus' childhood is when his family realise they've left him behind after attending passover in Jerusalem. They find the precocious teenager lecturing the priests of the Temple.

Jesus theological message put him at plenty of risk (just as Mohamed's did), and it was this religious other worldly message than angered the Pharisees and Sadducees and eventually got him killed. My way of saying he did not moderate his speech to accommodate circumstances.
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Reply #20 - September 29, 2017, 11:28 AM

Mustafa Akyol's account of being arrested in Malaysia: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/opinion/mustafa-akyol-detention-malaysia.html

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rGHgb0-1-20

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Reply #21 - September 29, 2017, 01:27 PM

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Jesus theological message put him at plenty of risk (just as Mohamed's did), and it was this religious other worldly message than angered the Pharisees and Sadducees and eventually got him killed. My way of saying he did not moderate his speech to accommodate circumstances.

That’s exactly my point. The Jesus character never moderates his speech and, just like the character of Muhammad, is portrayed as making some pretty incendiary remarks against his opponents.
Unlike the Muhammad character, however, Jesus never overseas any portion of the violent period the faith attributed to him undergoes. The guy is only around doing his best stuff for 3 years, as you say. Not nearly enough time to oversee an actual revolution.
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Reply #22 - October 02, 2017, 08:14 AM

Jesus being pacifist nor non-violent is an interpretation, a weak one. One which run counter to the Temple event, the Trinity itself due to the OT, Gospel of Luke, Mathew and John, Romans,. interactions with the Legion, the whole Book of Revelation.
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Reply #23 - October 02, 2017, 11:06 AM

Quote from: bogart on October 02, 2017, 08:14 AM
~~Jesus being pacifist nor non-violent is an interpretation, a weak one~~. One which run counter to the Temple event, the Trinity itself due to the OT, Gospel of Luke, Mathew and John, Romans,. interactions with the Legion, the whole Book of Revelation.

No...noooo..Nah., ., I disagree with you Mr. bogart.,

if Jesus Christ was real., I say HE WAS A NON-VIOLENT PACIFIST., after all according to Christian story books Jesus Ministry lived only for 3 years ., what violence and what violent preaching did he really do to his congregation in that short 3 year time??

and what he did he actually do/preach in that Temple Tantrum

http://biblehub.com/matthew/21-12.htm

whatever did .. even if I read worst Critic of Jesus such as this
Is Jesus A Pacifist? falls short of making him and his character as a Voilent man/preacher

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Reply #24 - October 02, 2017, 02:25 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 02, 2017, 11:06 AM
No...noooo..Nah., ., I disagree with you Mr. bogart.,

Disagree all you want. It does not change a single fact I stated.

Quote
if Jesus Christ was real., I say HE WAS A NON-VIOLENT PACIFIST., after all according to Christian story books Jesus Ministry lived only for 3 years ., what violence and what violent preaching did he really do to his congregation in that short 3 year time??

Gospel and secondary sources show your view is wrong. I guess you never read your own source nor the Gospels.

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and what he did he actually do/preach in that Temple Tantrum

Evidences against your view.

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whatever did .. even if I read worst Critic of Jesus such as this
Is Jesus A Pacifist? falls short of making him and his character as a Voilent man/preacher

I said he wasn't non-violent nor a pacifist.
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Reply #25 - October 03, 2017, 03:33 AM

Quote from: bogart on October 02, 2017, 02:25 PM
Disagree all you want. It does not change a single fact I stated.

well there are few on this earth who are willing to change THEIR FACTS or what they consider as facts dear bogart ., THEIR FACTS are often different from real facts specially when it comes to faiths and faith heads
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Gospel and secondary sources show your view is wrong. I guess you never read your own source nor the Gospels.

well I read what I can read....

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Evidences against your view.

I said he wasn't non-violent nor a pacifist.

what does that mean?? does that mean Jesus was a Violent guy and he was aggressive militant??

How many did he kill?

And how many from his congregation who heard his preaching /teaching became Murderers and killers?

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Reply #26 - October 03, 2017, 06:33 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 03, 2017, 03:33 AM
well there are few on this earth who are willing to change THEIR FACTS or what they consider as facts dear bogart ., THEIR FACTS are often different from real facts specially when it comes to faiths and faith heads

Read the Gospels. You are confusing facts of the text with quote-mined arguments from people that probably never read the Gospels once.

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well I read what I can read....

Go read the Gospels. It is very clear pacifism is not a driving principle.

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what does that mean?? does that mean Jesus was a Violent guy and he was aggressive militant??

The claims that Jesus preached pacifism are false.

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How many did he kill?

Killing people is not a parameter of pacifism nor of a non-pacifist. I have never murdered anyways but if someone attacks me I will fight back.

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And how many from his congregation who heard his preaching /teaching became Murderers and killers?

You are conflating the issue here. The opposite of a pacifist is not a murder but someone that will use violence. That violence can be self-defense which does not always lead to death. Again read the Gospels.
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Reply #27 - October 04, 2017, 01:40 PM

Quote from: bogart on October 03, 2017, 06:33 PM
Read the Gospels. You are confusing facts of the text with quote-mined arguments from people that probably never read the Gospels once.

Go read the Gospels. It is very clear pacifism is not a driving principle.

~~The claims that Jesus preached pacifism are false.~~

what is there to read dear bogart?? .,reading those Gospels and other faith books are for those faith heads who believe every word in them are from Jesus or from some god.. NOT FOR ME ..

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Reply #28 - October 04, 2017, 05:07 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 04, 2017, 01:40 PM
what is there to read dear bogart?? .,reading those Gospels and other faith books are for those faith heads who believe every word in them are from Jesus or from some god.. NOT FOR ME ..

The Gospels cherry-picked for the claims of pacifism. Dismiss it as a source of information, not necessarily a truth or set of, renders the pacific claim moot.
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Reply #29 - October 04, 2017, 11:31 PM

Quote from: bogart on October 04, 2017, 05:07 PM
The Gospels cherry-picked for the claims of pacifism. Dismiss it as a source of information, not necessarily a truth or set of, renders the pacific claim moot.

whether you cherry pick claims of pacifism or cherry pick claims of violence in the so-called NT gospels are nothing to do with real Jesus Character and in the same way so called allah book "Quran" is nothing to do with real Muhammad Character .

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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