Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran

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- Zaotar
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Reply #120 - July 10, 2014, 10:51 PM

Of course the commentary by Islamic Awareness is often ridiculous, but they also post a great set of data on various historical texts and inscriptions. I don't discredit everything they post simply because I know they have a traditional Muslim apologetic agenda.

You can't take most of the Islamic Awareness claims seriously, but they are generally a good site for raw historical data that you often can't get anywhere else (for example, that compilation of the surahs contained in the earliest Qur'anic manuscripts -- I have never seen any other source for that, and I have no reason to doubt that their charts are reliable).

On the other hand, the website's own apologetic arguments are often hilariously bad. Here's one of my favorites, in which they try to claim that the Qur'an's various linguistic errors actually reflect a fascinating thing about Arabic -- sometimes it used complete gibberish with botched grammar for *rhetorical effect*!

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Grammar/gramrefut.html

No, seriously. When the Qur'an fails to use correct grammar, they claim it's intentionally doing this for rhetorical reasons, much as we might in English say "we not speaks English much good." For rhetorical reasons. Since it's impossible that the Qur'an is making mistakes, then any mistakes ... must be on purpose! The logic of true zealots.
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Reply #121 - July 10, 2014, 11:05 PM

Quote from: Zaotar on July 10, 2014, 10:51 PM
Of course the commentary by Islamic Awareness is often ridiculous, .................. The logic of true zealots.

Zaotar leaving all these zealots and that ridiculous nonsense of Quran being word of Allah god whatever aside., My problem is can we some how extract bit of history of earliest Islam of alleged Prophet of Islam?

for e.g Assuming the statements of surah 96 being the earliest words of Quran by Muhammad as Islamic prophet , don't you think we can infer some sort of history?

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096.001 to 19 : Read in the name of your Lord Who created. He created man from a clot. Read and your Lord is Most Honorable, Who taught (to write) with the pen ., Taught man what he knew not. Nay! man is most surely inordinate, Because he sees himself free from want.. Surely to your Lord is the return. Have you seen him who forbids , A servant when he prays? Have you considered if he were on the right way, Or enjoined guarding (against evil)? Have you considered if he gives the lie to the truth and turns (his) back? Does he not know that Allah does see? Nay! if he desist not, We would certainly smite his forehead, A lying, sinful forehead. Then let him summon his council, We too would summon the braves of the army. Nay! obey him not, and make obeisance and draw nigh (to Allah).

or from this 2nd surah
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068.001 to 10 : Noon. I swear by the pen and what the angels write, By the grace of your Lord you are not mad. And most surely you shall have a reward never to be cut off. And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality. So you shall see, and they (too) shall see, Which of you is afflicted with madness. Surely your Lord best knows him who errs from His way, and He best knows the followers of the right course. So do not yield to the rejecters. They wish that you should be pliant so they (too) would be pliant. And yield not to any mean swearer.

068.011 to 20 : Defamer, going about with slander , Forbidder of good, outstepping the limits, sinful, Ignoble, besides all that, base-born; Because he possesses wealth and sons. When Our communications are recited to him, he says: Stories of those of yore. We will brand him on the nose. Surely We will try them as We tried the owners of the garden, when they swore that they would certainly cut off the produce in the morning, And were not willing to set aside a portion (for the poor). Then there encompassed it a visitation from your Lord while they were sleeping. So it became as black, barren land.

words like "Because he possesses wealth and sons." appears that Muhammad is talking about some guy.. some event of that time , that guy being relatively rich and had sons...

what is your opinion on that?

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Reply #122 - July 11, 2014, 05:00 PM

My opinion is that Surah 96 has nothing to do with Muhammad, and is a badly misread pre-Islamic text. I would refer you to Luxenberg on that, and also to Guillaume Dye's wonderful article, where he points out (quite correctly) that even the first line of Surah 96 has been badly misread by Muslim tradition. It is not telling "Muhammad" to "recite" in the name of his Lord, it is telling the anonymous believers to PROCLAIM the name of their Lord, as was commonly done by Jews and Christians at the beginning of a liturgical reading, i.e. a Qeryana to use the Syriac term.

http://www.academia.edu/4730102/Traces_of_Bilingualism_Multilingualism_in_Quranic_Arabic

"One should understand here, not "Read/Recite you, [Muhammad] in the name of your Lord” (as is generally understood), but “Proclaim/Praise the name of your Lord.”

I generally hold to the opinion of Gerd Puin that the Qur'an is a 'cocktail' of texts, with many original sources, many editors, and many hands putting it together through several stages. The traditional Muslim effort to organize and interpret the Qur'anic surahs by reference to the Sirah is an attempt to make sense of the fact that what we have is patently a composite text with components that were assembled in very different circumstances over a long period of time. The Muslim sirah is an attempt to explain that fact in the context of salvation history and by attributing it to a single prophetic author.

Although I think most of Luxenberg's Syro-Aramaic readings are incorrect, I do think his reading of Sura 96 -- as pre-Islamic Syrio-Arabic Christian text -- is far better and more accurate than the orthodox Muslim readings.

For Surah 68, I honestly cannot make heads or tails of it, I think it's largely incoherent in its present Arabic form, and I can't begin to surmise what it means or how it was assembled. Part of the problem here is that while it's clear enough that many of the Muslim attempts to read the Qur'an (including kitting the rasm out with diacritics and masoretic signs to make it 'Arabic') are wrong, it's not at all clear what the original text meant or how it was to be read -- it's precisely that inherent ambiguity that made it possible for Muslims to mis-read it in the first place. "Because he possesses wealth and sons." Who? We have no idea. Why would anybody ever give such a recitation? What would the listeners understand from it, how would they understand what this meant? And why doesn't the text just say the actual NAME of who the guy is? It's basically incomprehensible. This gets back to a problem I mentioned earlier, which is that the Qur'anic text as we have it seems to have been DELIBERATELY made more vague by taking out almost all contemporary proper names and using vague and mismatched pronouns instead. This, on purpose, makes it quite impossible to tell with certainty what it is talking about or who it is referring to.

For example, Surah 68 starts with "nun." Just the letter "nun." What does that mean? Nobody knows. Not Muslims, not Western scholars. It appears to be a relic of some previous text that was no longer understood when it was copied and recopied and edited and compiled. I don't believe the following text of Surah 68 is really any better understood than its first letter is!!!
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Reply #123 - July 11, 2014, 05:17 PM

Quote from: Zaotar on July 11, 2014, 05:00 PM
My opinion is that Surah 96 has nothing to do with Muhammad, and is a badly misread pre-Islamic text. I would refer you to Luxenberg on that, and also to Guillaume Dye's wonderful article, where he points out (quite correctly) that even the first line of Surah 96 has been badly misread by Muslim tradition.

O.K. i would agree with that point that so-called 1st surah is incoherent and badly written., In fact I would say that is true to most of Quran..
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.....For Surah 68, ..........it's precisely that inherent ambiguity that made it possible for Muslims to mis-read it in the first place. "Because he possesses wealth and sons." Who? We have no idea. .......

well that is exactly the point Zaotar,. to figure out who that guy was and why is it there in Quran.

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For example, Surah 68 starts with "nun." Just the letter "nun." What does that mean? Nobody knows. Not Muslims, not Western scholars. It appears to be a relic of some previous text that was no longer understood when it was copied and recopied and edited and compiled. I don't believe the following text of Surah 68 is really any better understood than its first letter is!!!

well let us not worry about these letters in Quran.. Nun.. Alif.. Lam meem.. whatever., but with reference to that relic previous text ., well it is possible that may be a story., but we have have no proof.., But does that story of "two sons and bad guy" match to that Muhammad's paternal uncle Abū Lahab who opposed his Islam?

for example that surah Abu Lahab

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The Sura of Abu Lahab

In the name of God, the most compassionate, the most merciful (بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم)

Perish the two hands of Abu Lahab, and perish he,
His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained,
He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame,
His wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood (thorns of Sadan which she used to put on the way of the Prophet).
Around her neck is a rope of twisted fiber (masadd).

also please read this hadith

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1) Narrated Ibn Abbas.: abu lahab, may Allah curse him, once said to the Prophet (p.b.u.h), "Perish you all the day." Then the Divine Inspiration came: "Perish the hands of Abi lahab! And perish he!" (111.1). (Book #23, Hadith #477)

(2) Narrated 'Abdul Wahid bin Aiman: I went to 'Aisha and said, "I was the slave of Utba bin abu lahab. "Utba died and his sons became my masters who sold me to Ibn abu Amr who manumitted me. The sons of 'Utba stipulated that my Wala' should be for them." 'Aisha said, "Buraira came to me and she was given the writing of emancipation by her masters and she asked me to buy and manumit her. I agreed to it, but Buraira told me that her masters would not sell her unless her Wala' was for them." 'Aisha said, "I am not in need of that." When the Prophet heard that, or he was told about it, he asked 'Aisha about it. 'Aisha mentioned what Buraira had told her. The Prophet said, "Buy and manumit her and let them stipulate whatever they like." So, 'Aisha bought and manumitted her and her masters stipulated that her Wala' should be for them." The Prophet;, said, "The Wala' will be for the liberator even if they stipulated a hundred conditions." (Book #46, Hadith #739)

(3) Narrated Ibn Abbas: When the Verse:--'And warn your tribe of near-kindred, was revealed, the Prophet ascended the Safa (mountain) and started calling, "O Bani Fihr! O Bani 'Adi!" addressing various tribes of Quraish till they were assembled. Those who could not come themselves, sent their messengers to see what was there. abu lahab and other people from Quraish came and the Prophet then said, "Suppose I told you that there is an (enemy) cavalry in the valley intending to attack you, would you believe me?" They said, "Yes, for we have not found you telling anything other than the truth." He then said, "I am a warner to you in face of a terrific punishment." abu lahab said (to the Prophet) "May your hands perish all this day. Is it for this purpose you have gathered us?" Then it was revealed: "Perish the hands of abu lahab (one of the Prophet's uncles), and perish he! His wealth and his children will not profit him...." (111.1-5) (Book #60, Hadith #293)

(4) Narrated Ibn Abbas: One day the Prophet ascended Safa mountain and said, "Oh Sabah! " All the Quraish gathered round him and said, "What is the matter?" He said, Look, if I told you that an enemy is going to attack you in the morning or in the evening, would you not believe me?" They said, "Yes, we will believe you." He said, "I am a warner to you in face of a terrible punishment." On that abu lahab said, "May you perish ! Is it for this thing that you have gathered us?" So Allah revealed: 'Perish the hands of abu lahab!...' (111.1) (Book #60, Hadith #325)

(5) Narrated Jundub bin Sufyan: Once Allah's Apostle became sick and could not offer his night prayer (Tahajjud) for two or three nights. Then a lady (the wife of abu lahab) came and said, "O Muhammad! I think that your Satan has forsaken you, for I have not seen him with you for two or three nights!" On that Allah revealed: 'By the fore-noon, and by the night when it darkens, your Lord (O Muhammad) has neither forsaken you, nor hated you.' (93.1-3) (Book #60, Hadith #475)

(6) Narrated Ibn Abbas: When the Verse:-- 'And warn your tribe of near kindred.' (26.214) was revealed. Allah's Apostle went out, and when he had ascended As-Safa mountain, he shouted, "O Sabahah!" The people said, "Who is that?" "Then they gathered around him, whereupon he said, "Do you see? If I inform you that cavalrymen are proceeding up the side of this mountain, will you believe me?" They said, "We have never heard you telling a lie." Then he said, "I am a plain warner to you of a coming severe punishment." abu lahab said, "May you perish! You gathered us only for this reason? " Then abu lahab went away. So the "Surat:--ul--lahab" 'Perish the hands of abu lahab!' (111.1) was revealed. (Book #60, Hadith #495)

(7) Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet went out towards Al-Batha' and ascended the mountain and shouted, "O Sabahah!" So the Quraish people gathered around him. He said, "Do you see? If I tell you that an enemy is going to attack you in the morning or in the evening, will you believe me?" They replied, "Yes." He said, "Then I am a plain warner to you of a coming severe punishment." abu lahab said, "Is it for this reason that you have gathered us? May you perish ! " Then Allah revealed: 'Perish the hands of abu lahab!' (Book #60, Hadith #496)

( Narrated Ibn Abbas: abu lahab said, "May you perish! Is it' for this that you have gathered us?" So there was revealed:-- 'Parish the hands of abu lahab' (Book #60, Hadith #497)

(9) Narrated Jundub: Once the Prophet fell ill and did not offer the night prayer (Tahajjud prayer) for a night or two. A woman (the wife of abu lahab) came to him and said, "O Muhammad ! I do not see but that your Satan has left you." Then Allah revealed (Surat-Ad-Duha): 'By the fore-noon, and by the night when it darkens (or is still); Your Lord has not forsaken you, nor hated you.' (93) (Book #61, Hadith #506)

(10) Narrated Um Habiba: (the wife of the Prophet) I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Will you marry my sister, the daughter of abu Sufyan." The Prophet said, "Do you like that?" I said, "Yes, for I am not your only wife, and the person I like most to share the good with me, is my sister." He said, "That is not lawful for me." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We have heard that you want to marry Durra, the daughter of abu Salama." He said, "You mean the daughter of Um Salama?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Even if she were not my step-daughter, she is unlawful for me, for she is my foster niece. Thuwaiba suckled me and abu Salama. So you should not present to me your daughters and sisters." Narrated 'Ursa: Thuwaiba had been a slave girl whom abu lahab had emancipated. (Book #64, Hadith #285)

well much of the hadith is repetitive gibberish but would that so-called 2nd surah match bit of that hadith story of Abu Lahab??

Question is did Abu Lahab had any sons??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Zaotar
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Reply #124 - July 11, 2014, 07:34 PM

No. There's no way to tell. Nobody has any idea how you could figure out what it means. We simply don't have the tools to do it.

If the question is whether later Muslims could *read into* the text an identification with the mythical figure of Abu Lahab, then my answer would be yes, because you can read anything into it. Taking Sura 111 and running with it, Abu Lahab became a stock villain in Islamic mythologizing and story telling. In fact I believe that there are only three contemporary figures named ANYWHERE in the Qur'an: Abu Lahab (named ONCE), Zayd (named ONCE), and Mohammed (named 3 or 4 times, sort of, but only ONCE clearly as a name). Later Muslims took these names and built elaborate mythologies on them.

But it gets worse. Abu Lahab was ultimately taken to be a proper name of a historical person by later Muslims. That is extremely unlikely. Abu Lahab literally means "Father of Flame" in Arabic, and Surah 111 is all about how the "Father of Flame" is going to burn in hell, along with his wife. The tiny Surah 111 is ENTIRELY about flames and fire. In other words, Surah 111 is just an archaic and out-of-context anecdote about a stereotypical evil person (the "Father of Flame") with a made-up name that fit the hellfire context of the original composition. Later Muslims misunderstood this archaic textual piece to be referring to an ACTUAL person, and further made up his alleged relation to Mohammed,, trying to explain what Surah 111 means and why it is in the Qur'an, when in fact they had no good information about its provenance, references, or meaning.

Surah 111 is another archaic snippet of existing religious discourse that was later "Islamicized" and given a fake historical background by the believers. They then connected this fictitious person with every episode where some contemporary man was criticized. In point of fact, I don't believe Surah 111 has anything to do with Mohammed at all. Nothing about its text suggests any such connection.

If the question is what the reference in Surah 68 'means' and how it conceivably relates to Abu Lahab, the text of Surah 68 says nothing about that at all. It could be referring to anybody who has "wealth and sons", which could be hundreds of thousands of different historical people, almost none of which we have any record of. Or it could be referring to non-historical people, or a fictional antagonist. We just have no idea at all. Given the lack of accompanying reference to hellfire in Surah 68, I don't believe it had any connection whatsoever to the "Father of Flame" epithet.
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Reply #125 - July 11, 2014, 07:42 PM

Btw, one of my favorite Islamic scholars, Gabriel Said Reynolds, wrote an interesting article making this exact point ... I just came across it recently. Reynolds explains how Surah 111 means something VERY different if you take it by itself, outside of the Sirah and the biographical narrative imposed on it.

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/11/reading-the-quran-through-the-bible

"Nonetheless, most scholars rely on these stories to explain the Qur’an. In Chapter 111, for example, the Qur’an refers to “The Father of Flame,” who will not benefit from his money but “roast in a burning fire,” and his wife, “who carries firewood and has a fiber rope around her neck.” Karen Armstrong (a former nun and popular writer on Islam) explains, “Abu Lahab’s wife, who fancied herself as a poet, liked to shout insulting verses at the Prophet when he passed by. On one occasion she hurled an armful of prickly firewood in his path.”

Armstrong relies on Muslim traditions that make Abu Lahab’s wife historical, but without these traditions the chapter would seem to be an artful metaphor of a foolish rich man and his wife who carries the wood that will fuel her own punishment in hell. Instead, we are given historical claims of a Meccan woman who attacked Muhammad by hurling firewood (Armstrong invents the prickly part) at him."

This simple anecdote beautifully illustrates the divide between modern critical scholarship and Islamic salvation history and its Western acolytes. Surah 111 has been massively obscured by Muslim tradition + exegesis, but if you look at the text itself, it says something very different, something which Muslim tradition no longer understood or accepted (that the Qur'an is full of anonymous pieces of generalized monotheist preaching and homily that have no relation to Mohammed).
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Reply #126 - July 11, 2014, 07:55 PM

Just running away from a thread taken over two geniuses, feeling utterly illiterate about Islam!
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Reply #127 - July 11, 2014, 10:46 PM

That's some heavy artillery against apologetics and a big broadside against "divine" texts in general. Keep it up!

I wonder when the Bible began to be studied as a historical text instead of a perfect, divinely-revealed document by both secular and Christian scholars. I haven't seen that kind of analysis of the Quran by secular Western scholars made available for common consumption.
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Reply #128 - July 11, 2014, 11:13 PM

Part of why I follow the field of early Islamic history so avidly is because of the time lag. The heroic period of Western critical scholarship on Judaism and Christianity was the 19th century. That is when critical textual, linguistic, archaeological, and historical analysis was first applied to these religious systems. Scholars readily determined that much of the Bible, for example, was forged (the pseudo-Pauline epistles, for example), and that much of it was salvation history (there was no historical Abraham/Esau/Isaac, etc.).

But Islam? There were a couple of critical early scholars, but for the most part the field fell into an uncritical coma that resembled the field of Biblical studies prior to the critical revolution. Huge shots were fired over the bow by a few scholars -- Vollers, Schacht, Goldziher, Lammens, Casanova -- but even that was relatively late, and it was not until Wansbrough that you saw a heavy critical assault on traditional religious accounts of Islam's rise and its holy texts.

That has all changed within the past decade, and there are now TONS of unbelievably exciting Islamic scholars coming out of the woodwork. The golden age for critical scholarship on Christianity and Judaism was the late 19th century; the golden age for critical scholarship on Islam is NOW. That is why the field is so exciting, even for people (like me) who are interested because of the historical issues rather than being particularly interested in religion.

There are volumes and volumes of awesome new critical scholarship being printed, but most of it is very academic. Perhaps my favorite three books:

http://www.amazon.com/Quran-Historical-Context-Routledge-Studies/dp/041549169X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1405120349&sr=8-2&keywords=quran+historical+context

http://www.amazon.com/New-Perspectives-Quran-Historical-Routledge/dp/0415615488/ref=pd_sim_b_13?ie=UTF8&refRID=1TE3HK83PQCVABWX1C9F

http://www.amazon.com/The-Quran-its-Biblical-Subtext/dp/0415524245/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y

These are all must-reads if you are interested in these issues, but they are definitely very, very technical and academic!
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Reply #129 - July 11, 2014, 11:47 PM

That's my concern, these would be easy to digest for scholars but they're out of reach of the layperson. Was there ever a popularizer in the 19th century who wrote about the historical inaccuracies or outright fabrications in Christian and Jewish texts? Did that influence mainstream Western opinion about religion in general?

We need someone brave enough to do one on the Quran by just focusing on its historical origins. I read Karen Armstrong's "A History of God" but that felt like an apologetic text that skirted over the manmade changes to the religious texts of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
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Reply #130 - July 12, 2014, 12:51 AM

Armstrong is absolutely terrible. If you want a very good and very balanced popular text on the emergence of Islam that also discusses modern critical scholarship, this is by far the best that I know of. It discusses both traditional Muslim narratives and modern critical analysis in a way that's easy to understand.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Emergence-Islam-Contemporary-Perspective/dp/0800698592/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405126205&sr=8-1&keywords=emergence+of+islam

You'll notice it's written by the same guy who wrote one of the academic volumes I list above, and edited two of the others, but this is his popular summary. It's very accessible, a great book that I always recommend as a starter.
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Reply #131 - July 12, 2014, 03:13 AM

Some of the people you mentioned Vollers, Schacht, Goldziher are in a book I am reading why i am not a muslim ibn warraq.

Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Reply #132 - July 12, 2014, 03:58 AM

Thanks Zaotar for the links, I'm reading the Guillaume Dye and GSR articles now and I plan to get his book soon.

It's so ironic that these scholars know more about Islam, the Arabic language and regional history than most Islamic scholars, let alone the common Muslim. Maybe more Muslims would leave the religion or become more liberal if they knew the historical truth behind the Quran. A "God Delusion" aimed at Islam?

But then again, a century of critical hammering against Christianity and Judaism still hasn't turned people away from those religions - as with Muslims, believers talk about having the need for faith despite evidence to the contrary. Carl Sagan's and Richard Dawkins' appeal for science and evidence-based reasoning instead of religious dogma falls on deaf ears as far as the faithful are concerned, who reject the science outright.
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Reply #133 - July 13, 2014, 08:08 PM

I hope you enjoy that Guillaume Dye article, it is one of my absolute favorites, and I agree with Dye on almost everything. Let me know what you think when you finish reading it! Even the footnotes are all fantastic.

Part of why recent scholarship is so exciting is not that traditional Muslim scholars were totally incompetent -- it's because they lacked the detailed knowledge of other Semitic languages and texts that modern Western scholars have. Muslim scholars also had limited ability to analyze early manuscripts in critical fashion. So they lacked the toolkit to understand much of the Qur'an's language, its structure, its composition, and its references. That said, I am always amazed by how much MORE critical the medieval Muslim scholars were than most modern scholars (Muslim or non-Muslim) have been until recently.

I also agree that critical scholarship isn't likely to ever have much impact on Islam more broadly, given the relative lack of impact that critical scholarship has had on Judaism and Christianity. Few people seem to care about the inarguable historical fact that the Bible is clearly not the inerrant word of God, and was assembled relatively late in piecemeal fashion to serve factional interests. But it did have *some* impact, which is why Christian and Jewish believers who have studied academic literature on their religion in detail tend to become much more progressive. I expect critical Islamic scholarship will have similar limited impact.

Also it took centuries for the doctrines of Islamic orthodoxy to form (including doctrines like the inimitability of the Qur'an, and the turn against Mutazilism). With critical scholarship, some of these doctrines can probably be rolled back in parts of Islam, so that you get more progressive branches akin to how Islam was before it calcified into dogmatism. Qur'anist movement is an example, but Qur'anists still do not meaningfully extend criticism to the Qur'an itself.
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Reply #134 - July 13, 2014, 08:54 PM

This is so fascinating, I have to come back and read it when the kids fall asleep. I appreciate all this information, from everyone.

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Reply #135 - July 13, 2014, 09:06 PM

I would argue that biblical scholarship has changed radically in the last two centuries. This issue is that the average follower is never informed of Biblical scholarship's views by those benefiting from this ignorance or just dismiss it out of hand. Also people have the capacity to delude themselves in order to hold their presuppositions as true. I have read Bibles which completely acknowledge verses which are known forgeries yet add commentary expressing the narrative should be held as true regardless. The religious narrative is more important than honest views.
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Reply #136 - July 16, 2014, 02:34 AM

well let me move these two post from other thread to here

Quote
Quote
yeezevee to Zaotar: do you believe that "there was man called Muhammad" who claimed himself as messenger of Allah/god and he was the one who uttered the words you in Quran? If not every word of Quran but some verses were uttered by him..

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Zaotar response: I believe there was an Arabian religious leader who styled himself a "messenger" and whose preaching is reflected in the Qur'an, but I definitely don't think the Qur'an consists of his actual words.

I think it is extremely improbably that he was called Muhammad, which I think is an epithet that was later taken to be his name when he became a political 'weapon' during the Second Fitna, and he was used as the basis for a new religion starting with Abd al Malik. Prior to that point, nobody had any sense of the Arabs having a new and separate religion.

As for his name, I would note that only twice in the Qur'an is "Muhammad" clearly used as a name (two other times it is used as an adjectival description meaning the 'praised one'), and that is in two verses that are quite clearly (I believe) late and spurious addition: 33:40 and 48:29. Particularly 33:40, "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men but the messenger of Allah and the seal of the prophets" is clearly a late addition for reasons which are set forth in great detail by this awesome book.

http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Not-Father-Any-Your/dp/B00FGVD2C6/ref=sr_1_sc_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1405447037&sr=8-4-spell&keywords=mohammed+not+father+of+your+men

Some of the very last monkeying with the basic rasm of the Qur'an was done to resolve critical disputes over WHO the prophet was and what his family relations were, issues that became critical only decades after his death when he was seized upon as a politcal-religious weapon in the sectarian climate. Because these changes were so late, they were very poorly done, and generated a great deal of controversy that we still have records of. Surah 33:4-6 and Surah 33:36-40 are very blatant later interpolations designed to establish that the "messenger" was in fact the very last prophet, he had no sons to carry on the prophetic line, and his name was Muhammad. I would also note that Surah 33:40 is not only the only clear Qur'anic use of "Muhammad" as a true name, it ALSO contains the only clear reference to any other contemporary person by name in the entire Qur'an -- specifically, Zayd (the other name that was taken as a historical person by later Muslims, Abu Lahab, being a metaphor). This is because 33:40 was written and inserted at a much later time when the formerly anonymous prophet had already been given a false name and some back story, in contrast to the almost complete anonymity used everywhere else in the Qur'an.

As for what in the Qur'an is his words and what isn't, I think that is no more meaningful than asking what in the Gospels are Jesus's words and what isn't. You can tell that parts are later interpolations or are improbable, but NONE of it is a direct quotation of actual words uttered by the speaker. I honestly find it to be borderline insane that so many scholars have taken seriously the proposition that the Qur'an reflects extemporaneous speeches given by Mohammed. Everything about the Qur'an suggests exactly the opposite, that it is a painfully compiled and redacted composite text that was put together over a fairly long period of time -- not as long as Wansbrough claimed, but certainly several decades.

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Reply #137 - July 16, 2014, 03:06 AM

So Zaotar says
Quote from: Zaotar on July 15, 2014, 06:02 PM
1). I believe there was an Arabian religious leader who styled himself a "messenger" and whose preaching is reflected in the Qur'an, but I definitely don't think the Qur'an consists of his actual words.

2) I think it is extremely improbably that he was called Muhammad,

3). ...... later taken to be his name when he became a political 'weapon' during the Second Fitna, and he was used as the basis for a new religion starting with Abd al Malik. Prior to that point, nobody had any sense of the Arabs having a new and separate religion.

4). ..two verses that are quite clearly (I believe) late and spurious addition: 33:40 and 48:29. Particularly 33:40, "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men but the messenger of Allah and the seal of the prophets" is clearly a late addition for reasons which are set forth in great detail by this awesome book.

5). ...........Because these changes were so late, they were very poorly done, and generated a great deal of controversy that we still have records of. Surah 33:4-6 and Surah 33:36-40 are very blatant later interpolations designed to establish that the "messenger" was in fact the very last prophet, he had no sons to carry on the prophetic line, and his name was Muhammad. I would also note that Surah 33:40 is not only the only clear Qur'anic use of "Muhammad" as a true name, it ALSO contains the only clear reference to any other contemporary person by name in the entire Qur'an -- specifically, Zayd (the other name that was taken as a historical person by later Muslims, Abu Lahab, being a metaphor). This is because 33:40 was written and inserted at a much later time when the formerly anonymous prophet had already been given a false name and some back story, in contrast to the almost complete anonymity used everywhere else in the Qur'an.

6).. .............Everything about the Qur'an suggests exactly the opposite, that it is a painfully compiled and redacted composite text that was put together over a fairly long period of time -- not as long as Wansbrough claimed, but certainly several decades.

So if I understand you correctly., everything in Islam before that guy the 5th Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan ( , 646 – 8 October 705) was all cock and bull stories of Stupid Muslims.. in other words you are saying

Quote
545: Birth of Abdullah, the Holy Prophet's father.
571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. .
605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
645: Campaigns in Fats.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
658: Battle of Nahrawan.
659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.

IS ABSOLUTE RUBBISH.. and all those 4 rightly guided Caliphs of Islam are simply cock & bull stories??

What are your thoughts on Shia Sunni Split that started with that murder of Hussain??
Quote
662: Khawarij revolts.
666: Raid of Sicily.
670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.

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Reply #138 - July 16, 2014, 06:06 AM

That's hardcore stuff by you heavyweights. Mind-blowing, too. I had read about Muhammad being a composite character, a bit like the Homer of ancient Greece, but not to the point of questioning the entire chronology of the Qur'an. Jesus in the Bible comes across as a blend of different archetypes and most Christians don't emphasize the actual historic dates of his deeds, but Muslims believe the Qur'an is the real historical record of one man's life.

Do we have any historical records from the Roman, Byzantine and Sasanian empires that talk about Arabian leaders or prophets around this time? If there are few or none, then it's plausible the Qur'an and most of early Islamic history were written long after the alleged events, with lots of editing and additions to make a coherent text. That makes it no different to the Iliad, the Odyssey, Mahabharata or the Ramayana - all religious fables with a pinch of history thrown in.
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Reply #139 - July 16, 2014, 04:52 PM

Muawiyah is the first "caliph" (I put that in quotes because the term caliph is unknown until Abd al Malik; in contemporary records, Muawiyah is either called a king or commander of the believers) that we have any really sound historical information on, but he's still a very shadowy figure. Abd al Malik is the first caliph that we have any detailed information on (Chase Robinson wrote a great book on the subject).

You ask a great question shaytanshoes, and the answer is yes, there are a number of contemporary records from Syriac writers and from the Byzantines -- these sources predate the extant Muslim sources by one to three centuries. For the most part, they contradict the Muslim narratives (which first emerged much later) in several important ways. These texts have problems of their own (leading some to reject them entirely), and some may reflect later interpolations, but they provide a relatively consistent picture on some points. Many scholars believe that they, along with the Qur'an *without later Muslim exegesis laid onto it*, give us the only valid basis for inferring details about Mohammed's life. I agree generally with Shoemaker's recent book on what we generally know about a historical Mohammed.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Death-Prophet-Beginnings-Divinations/dp/0812243560/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405529617&sr=8-1&keywords=death+of+a+prophet

"The oldest Islamic biography of Muhammad, written in the mid-eighth century, relates that the prophet died at Medina in 632, while earlier and more numerous Jewish, Christian, Samaritan, and even Islamic sources indicate that Muhammad survived to lead the conquest of Palestine, beginning in 634-35. Although this discrepancy has been known for several decades, Stephen J. Shoemaker here writes the first systematic study of the various traditions."

After all, it is a striking fact that we have many texts written by Syriac Christians WITHIN the Umayyad caliphate, long before any of our traditional "Muslim" texts were written. But almost to a word, none of the Syriac Christians living under Arab rule seem to have heard about any new religion, or a Qur'an, or Mohammed, until the early 700s. They do seem to have heard of an Arab prophet-king, but he bears little resemblance to Mohammed, and he was best known for leading an assault on Jerusalem (!) up until the year 634 (!) Likewise, we have many inscriptions across the region from 620-690 (including Arab gravestones), but none of them ever mentions Islam, the Qur'an, or Mohammed until the Dome of the Rock was built.

This is one of the reasons why so many modern scholars think that "Islam" did not really emerge as a distinctive religious movement until around that era. Clearly there was some preexisting material, it wasn't made up out of nothing, but it wasn't seen as a separate religion, the Qur'anic material was largely unknown to the Arabs, and the general community of religious believers didn't have any of the features that we now associate with Islam, not least of which is calling itself Islam.
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Reply #140 - August 04, 2014, 09:40 PM

Reflections of a Qur'an Translator” By Tarif Khalidi

Tarif Khalidi translation verses W. J. Arberry

Ibn Ishaq and Al Waqidi revisted _A case study of Muhammad and Jews in Biographical Literarute by Rizwi Faizer.. Theisis from Mc Gill Universioty

Qur'an and History _ A disputed relationship Some reflections on Quranic history and History in the Quran by Angelika Neuwirth

" The true test of the word of God is not whether it is poetic, but rather whether it is worthy of the all knowing creator of all humanity.

interesting Quote but i am not sure that is really a true test for word of god..

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Reply #141 - August 07, 2014, 07:15 PM

Quote from: Zaotar on July 16, 2014, 04:52 PM
............ I agree generally with Shoemaker's recent book on what we generally know about a historical Mohammed.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Death-Prophet-Beginnings-Divinations/dp/0812243560/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405529617&sr=8-1&keywords=death+of+a+prophet

"The oldest Islamic biography of Muhammad, written in the mid-eighth century, relates that the prophet died at Medina in 632, while earlier and more numerous Jewish, Christian, Samaritan, and even Islamic sources indicate that Muhammad survived to lead the conquest of Palestine, beginning in 634-35. Although this discrepancy has been known for several decades, Stephen J. Shoemaker here writes the first systematic study of the various traditions." ..

So Zaotar believes that Shoemaker's hypothesis on historical Mohammed. Now question is ., if Muhammad was alive in in 634-35 when did that alleged Prophet of Islam "Muhammad" died?

the 2nd comment as devil's advocate is

if we consider "Islam is the result of a failed conspiracy of Jews of Medina against Mecca pagans. Jews helped Mohammad; they served him as scribes, helped him to understand Judaism and Christian traditions, and supported him in his struggle against Meccan pagans to strengthen monotheism. Had they opposed him and confronted him from the very beginning in Medina, Mohammad would not have been able to establish Muslim community"

Hence Jews of Arabia paid terrible price for that conspiracy ..So Question is.,

what is your opinion on such line of thinking?

with best regards
yeezevee

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Reply #142 - August 23, 2014, 12:17 PM

The Quran in Context (Texts and Studies on the Qur'an)

~800 pages edited book by different authors..

MONKS, MANUSCRIPTS, AND MUSLIMS: SYRIAC TEXTUAL CHANGES IN REACTION TO THE RISE OF ISLAM

Syriac Christianity and the transmission
of Greek science to the Arabs

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Reply #143 - August 23, 2014, 01:09 PM

My strong feeling is we must dump everything about Mecca and Medina and out of the desert - were not the Israelites alleged to be in the wilderness for forty years, when all the archaeology shows them as local people with distinctive habits - no pig bones!

Look in Syria, Lebanon, Jerusalem and surrounding areas for all the early roots of Islam, then Babylon. Then work out when and why Mecca and Medina and desert became alleged history.

https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/f/finkelstein-bible.html

Quote
We will see how much of the biblical narrative is a product of the hopes, fears, and ambitions of the kingdom of Judah, culminating in the reign of King Josiah at the end of the seventh century BCE. We will argue that the historical core of the Bible arose from clear political, social, and spiritual conditions and was shaped by the creativity and vision of extraordinary women and men. Much of what is commonly taken for granted as accurate history — the stories of the patriarchs, the Exodus, the conquest of Canaan, and even the saga of the glorious united monarchy of David and Solomon — are, rather, the creative expressions of a powerful religious reform movement that flourished in the kingdom of Judah in the Late Iron Age. Although these stories may have been based on certain historical kernels, they primarily reflect the ideology and the world-view of the writers. We will show how the narrative of the Bible was uniquely suited to further the religious reform and territorial ambitions of Judah during the momentous concluding decades of the seventh century BCE.

But suggesting that the most famous stories of the Bible did not happen as the Bible records them is far from implying that ancient Israel had no genuine history. In the following chapters we will reconstruct the history of ancient Israel on the basis of archaeological evidence — the only source of information on the biblical period that was not extensively emended, edited, or censored by many generations of biblical scribes. Assisted by archaeological finds and extrabiblical records, we will see how the biblical narratives are themselves part of the story, not the unquestioned historical framework into which every particular find or conclusion must fit. Our story will depart dramatically from the familiar biblical narrative. It is a story not of one, but two chosen kingdoms, which together comprise the historical roots of the people of Israel.

The same job as above needs to be done with Islam, including asking where did it happen.

This is just as true about the koran hadith and interpreters!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP5O_NUhrK0

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #144 - August 23, 2014, 01:28 PM

Quote from: moi on August 23, 2014, 01:09 PM
My strong feeling is we must dump everything about Mecca and Medina and out of the desert - were not the Israelites alleged to be in the wilderness for forty years, when all the archaeology shows them as local people with distinctive habits - no pig bones!

Look in Syria, Lebanon, Jerusalem and surrounding areas for all the early roots of Islam, then Babylon. Then work out when and why Mecca and Medina and desert became alleged history.

well I am one of those guys who thinks that the present Islamic story of Prophet of Islam I hear/read consists of multiple characters/people/ personalities of different times from that boy Muhammad to all the way 100/150 years after the death of historical Muhammad we read in Islam moi..

It is possible that one of Earliest Muhammad was from the surroundings of Bekka valley(NOT MECCA) and may have been heretic Christian preacher And the other one the Viral Islamic one we see in Hadith is form some place in north/north west Arabia close to present Madina. Either way present Quran is a book of mumblings from multiple authors that is filled with plagiarized stories, repetitive gibberish with some possibility of real history in some verses here and there..

My interest is really not Academic research on the origins of this book but telling Muslim folks and non-Muslim folks to read the Damn book fully and use your brain and commonsense to analyze what is there in it,..

Quote from: moi on August 23, 2014, 01:09 PM

https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/f/finkelstein-bible.html

The same job as above needs to be done with Islam, ..

finkelstein-bible.. ... Israel Finkelstein ......... That dr, Israel Finkelstein .. well let me give the link of his whole book

The Archaeology and History of Northern Israel

read it...

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Reply #145 - August 23, 2014, 01:37 PM

I think the Saudis have deliberately rebuilt Mecca because they are very aware there is no archaeology there and a classic way of making sure nothing is found that shows nothing is to dig it all up!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #146 - August 23, 2014, 01:46 PM

Quote from: moi on August 23, 2014, 01:37 PM
I think the Saudis have deliberately rebuilt Mecca because they are very aware there is no archaeology there and a classic way of making sure nothing is found that shows nothing is to dig it all up!

http://www.historyofmecca.com/historical_claims.htm
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
A view of all religions in the world Alexander Ross, Henrick van Haestens Printed for J. Williams, 1672

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Reply #147 - August 23, 2014, 01:48 PM

Thank you for a brilliant link!

Quote
the genuine, original voice of Israel is barely heard in the Hebrew Bible.

And the capital of Israel is ......Samaria!

And Crone and Cook propose strong Samaritan roots of Islam!....

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #148 - August 25, 2014, 09:58 PM

The Death of a Prophet The End of Muhammad's Life and the Beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker

http://muse.jhu.edu/books/9780812205138?auth=0

Quote
"A work of utmost importance, and one that has profound implications for our understanding of how Islam began."--Fred Donner, University of Chicago The oldest Islamic biography of Muhammad, written in the mid-eighth century, relates that the prophet died at Medina in 632, while earlier and more numerous Jewish, Christian, Samaritan, and even Islamic sources indicate that Muhammad survived to lead the conquest of Palestine, beginning in 634-35. Although this discrepancy has been known for several decades, Stephen J. Shoemaker here writes the first systematic study of the various traditions. Using methods and perspectives borrowed from biblical studies, Shoemaker concludes that these reports of Muhammad's leadership during the Palestinian invasion likely preserve an early Islamic tradition that was later revised to meet the needs of a changing Islamic self-identity. Muhammad and his followers appear to have expected the world to end in the immediate future, perhaps even in their own lifetimes, Shoemaker contends. When the eschatological Hour failed to arrive on schedule and continued to be deferred to an ever more distant point, the meaning of Muhammad's message and the faith that he established needed to be fundamentally rethought by his early followers. The larger purpose of The Death of a Prophet exceeds the mere possibility of adjusting the date of Muhammad's death by a few years; far more important to Shoemaker are questions about the manner in which Islamic origins should be studied. The difference in the early sources affords an important opening through which to explore the nature of primitive Islam more broadly. Arguing for greater methodological unity between the study of Christian and Islamic origins, Shoemaker emphasizes the potential value of non-Islamic sources for reconstructing the history of formative Islam. Stephen J. Shoemaker is Associate Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Oregon and author of Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary's Dormition and Assumption.

those who have this Shibboleth authentication you can download most of that book as pdf file ., and that Shibboleth authentication only available to registered institutions.

First-Century Sources for the Life of Muhammad? A Debate by Andreas Görke, Harald Motzki, Gregor Schoeler A 60 page pdf file

HOW DID ISLAM BEGIN? WHERE DID THE QUR’AN COME FROM? A HISTORICAL CRITICAL ASSESSMENT

Waqf Ikhlas Publications No: 6 ISLAM’S REFORMERS Waqf Ikhlas Publications No: 6 TWELFTH EDITION by HAKIKAT KITABEVI ., Fatih ISTANBUL/TURKEY 2000 A 300 pages book

MOHAMMED AND THE RISE OF ISLAM BY D. S. MARGOLIOUTH a 500pages book,,

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Reply #149 - September 12, 2014, 08:44 PM

Ye gods, I didn't realize I was repeating myself in that other thread on Muhammad conquering Jerusalem. Thank you so much, ladies and gents, for putting up such fine arguments and a treasure trove of links. It'll take me a few months to read them all...

I've never been so unconvinced of the Qur'an's divine nature as of now, thanks to all these texts I found on this forum. The Qur'an borrows words and misuses them, makes a total hash of grammar and looks more like a badly edited anthology than a divine document.
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