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 Topic: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!

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  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     OP - June 09, 2011, 10:31 PM
    9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

    So if today's Muslims read this, do they just ignore it? Isn't this a direct order from Allah to fight the disbelievers until they pay the jizya tax?

    So if todays Muslims ignore this willingly, doesn't that make them disobedient Muslims that disobey direct orders from the Quran itself? Would such disobedience merit at least a throw or two in hellfire?

    Looks like the terrorists are the Muslims closest to Allah after all.
    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #1 - June 09, 2011, 10:42 PM

    Its actually a verse about peace, tolerance and justice, you just took it out of context.

    Oh, and women's rights too.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #2 - June 09, 2011, 10:46 PM
    Oh?
     Go Criss!
    I can't wait  Cheesy
    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #3 - June 09, 2011, 10:58 PM
    Quote from: luftazure on June 09, 2011, 10:31 PM
    9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

    So if today's Muslims read this, do they just ignore it? Isn't this a direct order from Allah to fight the disbelievers until they pay the jizya tax?

    So if todays Muslims ignore this willingly, doesn't that make them disobedient Muslims that disobey direct orders from the Quran itself? Would such disobedience merit at least a throw or two in hellfire?

    Looks like the terrorists are the Muslims closest to Allah after all.


    Well the moderates and modernists claim that that only applied to the Islamic state when it was around.  It no longer applies.....

    Yea I know the cognitive dissonance is strong with them
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #4 - June 09, 2011, 11:03 PM
    A fight with words isn't so bad now is it?
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #5 - June 09, 2011, 11:10 PM
     Roll Eyes
    Did you know?
    When God ordered Muslims not to eat pork, he only meant it for the uncooked pork!
    Source: Al Wara 'Enaby, p.413
     Cheesy
    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #6 - June 09, 2011, 11:11 PM
    Quote from: Eternity on June 09, 2011, 11:03 PM
    A fight with words isn't so bad now is it?


    That's one way to interpret it. But I could also say by physical violence, what would there be stopping me doing so?
    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #7 - June 09, 2011, 11:13 PM
    Quote from: Fombles on June 09, 2011, 11:11 PM
    That's one way to interpret it. But I could also say by physical violence, what would there be stopping me doing so?


    You mean aside from reasons of morality? Also you wouldn't go attack unless you were attack. This isn't a war. Though many do believe it is.
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #8 - June 09, 2011, 11:18 PM
    pay willingly while humbled seems to be a strange turn of phrase.  It would be interesting to know what the underlying text's connotation is. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #9 - June 09, 2011, 11:19 PM
    Quote from: Eternity on June 09, 2011, 11:13 PM
    This isn't a war. Though many do believe it is.


    Isn't that how radical muslims are interpreting this?

    Quote from: Eternity on June 09, 2011, 11:13 PM
    You mean aside from reasons of morality?


    Morality in Islam is pretty flawed, infact laughable.
    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #10 - June 09, 2011, 11:21 PM
    That guy called Mirza Ghulam has declared that physical Jihad is over, so no need for discussion over there. Roll Eyes

    Islam summarized:
    War is peace, Freedom is slavery, Ignorance is strength.
    I shouldn't be here. Really. Shaytan SWT deluded ALL of us. Amen.
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #11 - June 09, 2011, 11:24 PM
    Quote from: Fombles on June 09, 2011, 11:19 PM
    Isn't that how radical muslims are interpreting this?

    Morality in Islam is pretty flawed, infact laughable.


    I suppose they are interpreting it that way. They shouldn't though.

    Why do you feel morality is flawed in Islam? Can you provide evidence?
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #12 - June 09, 2011, 11:33 PM
    Quote
    Why do you feel morality is flawed in Islam? Can you provide evidence?


    Offensive jihad for one.  Extortion is illegal in Islam but if a Muslim army arrives at your door, they give you three options; join the extortioners, pay them money for "protection", or die.  Of course they are supposed to warn you they are coming before they do so your knowing it is supposed to absolve them of the crime.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #13 - June 09, 2011, 11:39 PM
    Quote from: Eternity on June 09, 2011, 11:03 PM
    A fight with words isn't so bad now is it?


    Lets say it is only about fighting with words.

    Why does it want you to fight for supremacy over others?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #14 - June 09, 2011, 11:42 PM
    Quote from: Eternity on June 09, 2011, 11:24 PM
    I suppose they are interpreting it that way. They shouldn't though.

    Why do you feel morality is flawed in Islam? Can you provide evidence?


    I think the above post questions your second statement. Though I could name many others, but you get the gist of it.

    As for your first point, well no they shouldn't be theoretically since were not in the Dark Ages. But they still do, wouldn't you blame the teaching in the Qu'ran for this? Would you say its right for a scripture for the religion that promotes peace to include such a clause which can be horribly misunderstood?
    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #15 - June 10, 2011, 12:02 AM
    Quote from: billy on June 09, 2011, 11:39 PM
    Lets say it is only about fighting with words.

    Why does it want you to fight for supremacy over others?




    To have the truth over the falsehood? To spread knowledge while combating lies and rumors?
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #16 - June 10, 2011, 12:05 AM
    Quote from: Fombles on June 09, 2011, 11:42 PM
    I think the above post questions your second statement. Though I could name many others, but you get the gist of it.

    As for your first point, well no they shouldn't be theoretically since were not in the Dark Ages. But they still do, wouldn't you blame the teaching in the Qu'ran for this? Would you say its right for a scripture for the religion that promotes peace to include such a clause which can be horribly misunderstood?


    No, I don't blame the Quran for this. As there are numerous verses which condone killing except for punishments which are clearly pointed out. It can be misunderstood if you just read bits and pieces of verses in the Quran without reading it in context and fully.
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #17 - June 10, 2011, 12:08 AM
    Quote
    To have the truth over the falsehood? To spread knowledge while combating lies and rumors?


    To enforce 'truth over falsehood' and 'to spread knowledge' combatting 'lies and rumours' by enforcing jizya on the heads of people?

    "until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

    Under any other circumstances that would be the rhetoric of a thuggish little extortionist.

    And its none of the things you said. Its fighting for the supremacy of Allah and Mohammad and Islam, which is conflated in this perverse way with 'truth' and everything else as 'falsehood'

    Its a thuggish, nasty verse.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #18 - June 10, 2011, 12:09 AM
    Quote from: Eternity on June 10, 2011, 12:02 AM
    To have the truth over the falsehood? To spread knowledge while combating lies and rumors?


    Making a very big assumption that it knows the truth to begin with!


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #19 - June 10, 2011, 12:09 AM
    Quote from: Eternity on June 10, 2011, 12:05 AM
    It can be misunderstood if you just read bits and pieces of verses in the Quran without reading it in context and fully.


    Ah yes, "context", the unofficial sixth pillar of Islam  Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #20 - June 10, 2011, 12:10 AM
    Fighting evil is combatting 'lies and rumours', wow, fight over gossip.

    Mo was very anxious to combat 'lies and rumours', and he knew how imperative it was to silence people.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #21 - June 10, 2011, 12:28 AM
    Fighting in this context comes from the arabic word KATELO which is an order to fight to the death, the verb Yakter is to kill from the source Katala.

    And if you don't fight with physical violence, are you supposed to bad mouth them into paying the tax?
    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #22 - June 10, 2011, 12:30 AM
    Quote from: Eternity on June 10, 2011, 12:05 AM
    No, I don't blame the Quran for this. As there are numerous verses which condone killing except for punishments which are clearly pointed out. It can be misunderstood if you just read bits and pieces of verses in the Quran without reading it in context and fully.


    Quote from: luftazure on June 10, 2011, 12:28 AM
    Fighting in this context comes from the arabic word KATELO which is an order to fight to the death, the verb Yakter is to kill from the source Katala.

    And if you don't fight with physical violence, are you supposed to bad mouth them into paying the tax?


    Was I taking it out of context or not understanding it properly?

    Note: Good job Lufty! Tongue
    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #23 - June 10, 2011, 12:35 AM
    Quote from: billy on June 10, 2011, 12:09 AM
    Ah yes, "context", the unofficial sixth pillar of Islam  Afro


    But you do understand that showing bits and pieces of a text of this quantity can be used to misinterpert orginal purpose?

    Quote from: billy on June 10, 2011, 12:10 AM
    Fighting evil is combatting 'lies and rumours', wow, fight over gossip.

    Mo was very anxious to combat 'lies and rumours', and he knew how imperative it was to silence people.




    Well you can't just allow lies and rumors to be out there can you? If someone were hear/see them they would get the wrong understanding. As such you fight against the people that are misinterpreting and/or making lies of what is true.

     
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #24 - June 10, 2011, 12:52 AM
    Quote from: luftazure on June 10, 2011, 12:28 AM
    Fighting in this context comes from the arabic word KATELO which is an order to fight to the death, the verb Yakter is to kill from the source Katala.

    And if you don't fight with physical violence, are you supposed to bad mouth them into paying the tax?


    Well you could take "fight" to mean fight as in "verbal jihad"  and the verse could mean to convince Christians etc to willingly take the jizya i.e. join the Islamic empire, but I'm sure that you like me get an weird feeling that someone is stretching the truth if someone interpreted it this way and I am sure the original Arabic can't be translated that way without some extreme stretching as you have already shown.  I'm sure the "willing to pay while humbled" part is pretty bad too given the historical context that the elaborate ceremonies of humiliation that the dhimmis had to go though to pay the jizya. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #25 - June 10, 2011, 01:10 AM
    Quote from: luftazure on June 09, 2011, 10:31 PM
    9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

    So if today's Muslims read this, do they just ignore it? Isn't this a direct order from Allah to fight the disbelievers until they pay the jizya tax?

    So if todays Muslims ignore this willingly, doesn't that make them disobedient Muslims that disobey direct orders from the Quran itself? Would such disobedience merit at least a throw or two in hellfire?

    Looks like the terrorists are the Muslims closest to Allah after all.


    The muslim argument is that instead of paying zakat, the people of the book pay "Jaziya" and are exempt from military service - nothing wrong with that.  They should be fought only if they refuse to pay their share of the tax, just as the IRS will arrest the person refusing to pay income tax. 
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #26 - June 10, 2011, 01:38 AM
    Nice interpretation but he did not specify that we should fight only the disbelievers INSIDE the Islamic state's control. The logical assumption is that it means ALL disbelievers, inside and out.
    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #27 - June 10, 2011, 02:36 AM
    Quote from: Mullah Rock on June 10, 2011, 01:10 AM
    The muslim argument is that instead of paying zakat, the people of the book pay "Jaziya" and are exempt from military service - nothing wrong with that.  They should be fought only if they refuse to pay their share of the tax, just as the IRS will arrest the person refusing to pay income tax.  


    The a good way to see how a contract holds up is to see what the penalties are for stopping the contract. To be exempted from military service, to have the protection of the Islamic state sounds great, but what is the penalties for quitting the contract? The ultimate penalty is death. You " lose" the protection of the Islamic state, you become "rebellious" and Islamic offensive jihad leaves you wide open to be threatened, murdered, or stolen from.  Islamic apologists usually frame it as what the Islamic state has to offer, but the more important part is what is it that they take away if you don't accept.  
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #28 - June 10, 2011, 09:13 AM
    Quote from: Eternity on June 10, 2011, 12:35 AM
    But you do understand that showing bits and pieces of a text of this quantity can be used to misinterpert original purpose?


    The shahadah should actually read 'la ilaha illallah, Muhammad rasulu-llah, and everything you say about Islam as a disbeliever is taken out of context'  Afro


    Quote
    Well you can't just allow lies and rumors to be out there can you? If someone were hear/see them they would get the wrong understanding. As such you fight against the people that are misinterpreting and/or making lies of what is true.


    Thats not just a pitiful and petty injunction, highlighting the smallness of the Quran, and the minds that concocted it, and those who believe it is a universal message for humanity, its also laughable. Because Islam is one big gigantic, shameless lie.

    No, even if we hypothetically accept this explanation, it would only be an example of Islam's paranoia and virulence in snuffing out everything that does not submit to it - under the rubric of snuffing out all that is not Islam, because Islam posits itself as 'truth', all else as 'falsehood', which must be fought against.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #29 - June 10, 2011, 09:16 AM
    Quote from: Mullah Rock on June 10, 2011, 01:10 AM
    The muslim argument is that instead of paying zakat, the people of the book pay "Jaziya" and are exempt from military service - nothing wrong with that.  They should be fought only if they refuse to pay their share of the tax, just as the IRS will arrest the person refusing to pay income tax. 


    Oh great, Allah was a fucking taxman, sitting aloft the cosmos worrying about National Insurance numbers and VAT and income tax.

    Even the most 'benign' explanations of this verse paints Islam in an ugly light. Even if you accept this, Islam becomes even more starkly a movement for conquering, imperialism, and a naked vehicle for a programme of loot and theft.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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