Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #270 - July 13, 2011, 12:31 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 13, 2011, 12:30 PM
It wouldn't? If I see my keyboard slowly turning into a serpent in front of my eyes... that would seem pretty 'supernatural'.

And you wouldn't suspect for a moment that perhaps someone had slipped something dodgy into your drink?

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #271 - July 13, 2011, 12:35 PM

How about if there were many witnesses or it happens on several occasions?
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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #272 - July 13, 2011, 12:39 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 13, 2011, 12:35 PM
How about if there were many witnesses or it happens on several occasions?

Several occasions is just the same thing lots of times, it doesn't add credibility to it. In fact, if it happened regularly it would be more likely to convince me it is normal

Having multiple people witness it does not make it more credible either. They could easily all have been drugged for a start

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #273 - July 13, 2011, 12:42 PM

Well there is always the possibility that our experience or memory of an event was inaccurate for some reason, so I think you're going to have some trouble finding this example...
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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #274 - July 13, 2011, 12:45 PM

''Which is more likely: That the whole natural order is suspended or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?''
- Hume

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #275 - July 13, 2011, 12:45 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 13, 2011, 12:42 PM
Well there is always the possibility that our experience or memory of an event was inaccurate for some reason, so I think you're going to have some trouble finding this example...

Exactly, and that's why I said I can't think of an example. There are plenty of things I could convince a group of people to believe if I first had the opportunity to apply a drug to their food or drinks. Then of course I could even back it up with video evidence by taking a digital camera from one of the participants and then uploading a pre-fabricated movie file.

There are plenty of more simple possibilities before you reach "God did it." To arrive there you have to find yourself in a position where all the alternative explanations are more incredible than the existence of the supernatural

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #276 - July 13, 2011, 12:50 PM

Reminds me of another quote, something along the lines of ... an event should only be considered 'miraculous' if the falsehood of the testimony would be more miraculous than the event itself... (Hume?)
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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #277 - July 13, 2011, 12:53 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 13, 2011, 12:50 PM
Reminds me of another quote, something along the lines of ... an event should only be considered 'miraculous' if the falsehood of the testimony would be more miraculous than the event itself... (Hume?)

I rarely remember where I hear stuff, I just choose whether or not I like it

I really can't think of anything that would convince me of god though, although being all-powerful and all-knowing I am pretty certain that god can

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #278 - July 13, 2011, 12:58 PM

Quote from: z10 on July 13, 2011, 06:11 AM
We should have a better way of conceptualizing a 'miracle' if we want to speak of them without making reference to our temporary understanding of the world.

It's ridiculous to say we don't know enough about the universe to rule some things out, though.

And to use the mysteries of QM to support comic book miracles is dishonest and desperate.

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #279 - July 13, 2011, 03:55 PM

Quote from: Ishina on July 13, 2011, 12:58 PM
It's ridiculous to say we don't know enough about the universe to rule some things out, though.

And to use the mysteries of QM to support comic book miracles is dishonest and desperate.

QM is exactly the right example to use because it has changed so much of our conception of the universe.

We used to think that it was impossible to go through walls - we now know that neutrinos can go through the entire earth without being disturbed.

We used to think that it was impossible to instantly communicate - we now know that quantum entanglement makes that a reality.

We used to think that everything real had some measure of mass - we now know that photons exist but are massless.

Isn't being able to go through walls, being massless and able to communicate from far away exactly what superstitious folk would consider the miracle of spirits and ghosts?

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #280 - July 13, 2011, 03:57 PM

Quote from: Ishina on July 13, 2011, 12:45 PM
''Which is more likely: That the whole natural order is suspended or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?''
- Hume

I may have made this exact same post somewhere but I think it's worth making again. Hume has no right to such an opinion seeing as he was the one who destroyed the idea of a natural order with his argument against causation.

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #281 - July 13, 2011, 04:17 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 13, 2011, 12:09 PM
Yes. Did I manage to make it in less?

Very much so, I always struggle to make my points clearly

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #282 - July 13, 2011, 04:54 PM

Quote from: z10 on July 13, 2011, 04:17 PM
Very much so, I always struggle to make my points clearly

I think you do it very well for somebody who is juggling with every philosophy under the sun - its easier to converse if you hold just one so material rational reductionists, probably having the easiest ride in debate because they can just bring along 'proof' and the debate is theirs.

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #283 - July 13, 2011, 05:15 PM

Quote from: z10 on July 13, 2011, 03:55 PM
QM is exactly the right example to use because it has changed so much of our conception of the universe.

We used to think that it was impossible to go through walls - we now know that neutrinos can go through the entire earth without being disturbed.

We used to think that it was impossible to instantly communicate - we now know that quantum entanglement makes that a reality.

We used to think that everything real had some measure of mass - we now know that photons exist but are massless.

Isn't being able to go through walls, being massless and able to communicate from far away exactly what superstitious folk would consider the miracle of spirits and ghosts?

No, really, it sounds like a really bad and uninformed example from where I'm sat. It sounds like me when I was naive and enchanted by the popularised idea of quantum mechanics. I've been scalded more than once by people who actually know their shit for regurgitating this wishy washy pop science nonsense.

A wall is still a wall. Nothing at a quantum level has ever given us any indication that a man is ever gonna walk through it. What happens on the sub-atomic level isn't the same thing that happens at a macroscopic level. It simply isn't. No credible physicist is talking like you are talking right now.

There is a big difference between actual quantum mechanics and this quantum mysticism you seem to eager to buy into. It's hard for the layman to tell them apart at the best of times.

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #284 - July 13, 2011, 05:24 PM

I am not claiming that men can walk through walls. I am well aware that all of these properties manifest only at the quantum level.

My point rather is that the fact that these qualities, no matter what scale, do exist changes our conception of the world. Whether at a macro-level or not, it is still incredible to think of these properties as being as real as macroscopic biological phenomena, for instance.
It is the incredible-ness of these properties that is at issue here - because it shows that we can include within our physical laws things that we would normally find completely counter-intuitive and thus have no right to think that we have a good grasp of what physical laws exist. Tomorrow, we could conclude something even more incredible that would include even more counter-intutive properties into the universe and thus what would seem miraculous today would be natural then.

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #285 - July 13, 2011, 05:24 PM

Quote from: IsLame on July 13, 2011, 04:54 PM
I think you do it very well for somebody who is juggling with every philosophy under the sun - its easier to converse if you hold just one so material rational reductionists, probably having the easiest ride in debate because they can just bring along 'proof' and the debate is theirs.

You are too kind

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #286 - July 13, 2011, 05:31 PM

I would like to add Ishina that you are right - I am not a physicist and have not the mathematical skills to see the equations work for myself. I don't want to give the impression that I am some kind of authority.

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Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
Reply #287 - July 13, 2011, 05:47 PM

Quote from: z10 on July 13, 2011, 05:24 PM
Tomorrow, we could conclude something even more incredible that would include even more counter-intutive properties into the universe and thus what would seem miraculous today would be natural then.

Let's simply make the distinction clear between the sweet draft of potentiality emanating from the future with all the wonderful things we can imagine happening, and the extraordinary and unfounded historical claims of religion that directly breach known natural law and trespass on the realms of the testable.

A reasonable and sensible discussion on the miraculous should include a distinction between scientific advances based in possibility and stories of wandering sorcerers casting magic spells at whim.

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