Materialism

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Re: Materialism
Reply #60 - June 28, 2011, 08:31 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 28, 2011, 08:22 PM
Until anyone is even capable of completely understanding what EM radiation actually is, I don't see how you can argue one way or the other. :S Wavelength is just one property.

I think he is talking from a materialists/scientists standpoint, where colour of EM radiation is solely dependent on wavelength

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Re: Materialism
Reply #61 - June 28, 2011, 08:33 PM

Yes but wavelength is a property of EMR. If you don't know what EMR actually is, then a wavelength is just a number. Sound has wavelength too.
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Re: Materialism
Reply #62 - June 28, 2011, 08:37 PM

Quote from: z10 on June 28, 2011, 08:04 PM
I think the problem stems from the idea that saying:

1. Experiencing the sensation of red

and

2. Having a certain of wavelength of light hit your eye resulting in an electro-chemical message to your brain to be decoded

are completely identical. However, with the example above, the person only had knowledge of 2 and not 1. I would contend that when she gained knowledge of 1, it wasn't the same as 2 but it was a further fact because the description in 2, while all correct, does not include the actual experienced sensation of red.

To take another example, imagine there is a colour you have never seen before. Would you be able to know what looking at that colour feels like if I just told you that it's a particular wave of a particular wavelength?

No, I would not know what the experience is like until I have experienced it, thus gaining knowledge which is ultimately stored in the brain via neural activity. The same way I can't know a fact until I discover or learn about it. I think that experiencing something and physical facts are both forms of knowledge, acquired through different means, so why is experiencing a problem to the materialist explanation? Surely it would be a similar process in which we acquire knowledge about facts.

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that I agree that physical facts can't substitute knowledge gained through experience, but surely as they're both just forms of knowledge it would just be a matter of how this knowledge is stored in the brain.

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Re: Materialism
Reply #63 - June 28, 2011, 08:38 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 28, 2011, 08:33 PM
Yes but wavelength is a property of EMR. If you don't know what EMR actually is, then a wavelength is just a number. Sound has wavelength too.

all light belongs to EM spectrum, it is only differentiated by wavelength (& frequency which is linked) , and as z10 was suggesting we know the colour by the wavelength

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Re: Materialism
Reply #64 - June 28, 2011, 08:42 PM

Yes, I know basic physics, thanks . But we don't know what EMR actually is. Our understanding of it is so poor we are flabbergasted by Young's double slit experiment.

Telling someone to imagine EMR at some novel wavelength and expecting them to see a colour is futile atm, because they know all but a few properties of EMR. It may be forever futile, but I don't see how anyone could know that yet.
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Re: Materialism
Reply #65 - June 28, 2011, 08:46 PM

And no, we don't know the colour by the wavelength. We know the wavelength and we know the name we assign to the colour we experience, but you cannot know someone else is seeing the same colour as you are. As every amateur philosopher likes to point.
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Re: Materialism
Reply #66 - June 28, 2011, 09:01 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 28, 2011, 08:22 PM
Until anyone is even capable of completely understanding what EM radiation actually is, I don't see how you can argue one way or the other. :S Wavelength is just one property.

I think this adds to my general point - our physical parameters are incomplete in explaining the universe.

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Re: Materialism
Reply #67 - June 28, 2011, 09:03 PM

Quote from: Ishina on June 28, 2011, 08:27 PM
What do you mean by gained knowledge of red? Having a physical encounter of red is... a physical encounter. More physically realised than having red described to you.
No. But all manner of physical, material phenomenon can be described. I could describe digestion. If you had never digested, would you know what digesting feels like if I described it to you? Would it make it less of a physically bound occurrence?

No, I'm not saying that experience is not physically bound - it is physical just like every other real thing. However, when describing the universe, we leave out the experience and try to objectify whatever it is and thus subtract from the full understanding of that phenomena. Red, digestion, pain etc, can all be described in purely the terms of current physics and biology but they are incomplete descriptions - hence, as per my original point, materialism is incomplete.

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Re: Materialism
Reply #68 - June 28, 2011, 09:06 PM

Quote from: zooby on June 28, 2011, 08:37 PM
No, I would not know what the experience is like until I have experienced it, thus gaining knowledge which is ultimately stored in the brain via neural activity. The same way I can't know a fact until I discover or learn about it. I think that experiencing something and physical facts are both forms of knowledge, acquired through different means, so why is experiencing a problem to the materialist explanation? Surely it would be a similar process in which we acquire knowledge about facts.

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that I agree that physical facts can't substitute knowledge gained through experience, but surely as they're both just forms of knowledge it would just be a matter of how this knowledge is stored in the brain.

Experience is a problem to the materialist worldview because according to orthodox materialism qualitative sensations do not exist. The only real things are microparticles and spacetime geometries. The problem begins when we try to explain the sensation of red in terms of micro-particles. As the above argument, I believe, showed even if we know everything there is to know about red in terms of micro-particles on our current understanding of physics, we still would not know what the actual sensation of red feels like.

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Re: Materialism
Reply #69 - June 28, 2011, 09:07 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 28, 2011, 08:46 PM
And no, we don't know the colour by the wavelength. We know the wavelength and we know the name we assign to the colour we experience, but you cannot know someone else is seeing the same colour as you are. As every amateur philosopher likes to point.

we know the name of the colour, any standard physics textbook will tell you that - the rest of your point falls in line with an idealists, rather than a materialists, standpoint - which is what we are discussing here.

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Re: Materialism
Reply #70 - June 28, 2011, 09:13 PM

Quote from: z10 on June 28, 2011, 09:03 PM
hence, as per my original point, materialism is incomplete.

For sure. All philosophies are incomplete.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Materialism
Reply #71 - June 28, 2011, 09:19 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 28, 2011, 09:07 PM
we know the name of the colour,

That's what I said. But the name of a colour =/= a colour.

Quote
any standard physics textbook will tell you that - the rest of your point falls in line with an idealists, rather than a materialists, standpoint - which is what we are discussing here.

I don't see your point? You can hardly fail to bring up things an idealist would believe in a discussion about materialism.
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Re: Materialism
Reply #72 - June 28, 2011, 09:21 PM

nevermind

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Re: Materialism
Reply #73 - June 28, 2011, 09:22 PM

I think, as you have pointed out the most crude flaws in materialism, z10, it would be helpful to do the same with idealism.
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Re: Materialism
Reply #74 - June 29, 2011, 06:46 AM

Quote from: Ishina on June 28, 2011, 09:13 PM
For sure. All philosophies are incomplete.

Agreed

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Re: Materialism
Reply #75 - June 29, 2011, 06:46 AM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 28, 2011, 09:22 PM
I think, as you have pointed out the most crude flaws in materialism, z10, it would be helpful to do the same with idealism.

Start a thread and we can try

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Re: Materialism
Reply #76 - June 30, 2011, 07:06 PM

Right I think I get that point now z10. Cheers.

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 28, 2011, 09:22 PM
I think, as you have pointed out the most crude flaws in materialism, z10, it would be helpful to do the same with idealism.

Do it.

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Re: Materialism
Reply #77 - June 30, 2011, 07:31 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 27, 2011, 07:29 AM
Yes, ^ accepting materialism is often the result of rebellion from religion, but then such religion is child's fodder. There is little merit in climbing just the one rung of the ladder to truth.

Thanks for showing me my place, Prince. Prepare to become a bunch of particles that can not experience red (i.e. die)

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Re: Materialism
Reply #78 - June 30, 2011, 07:34 PM

Lol, I didn't mean to be pretentious. I think I'm on completely the wrong ladder, tbh.

@ z10 and zooby - you lazy fuckers.
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Re: Materialism
Reply #79 - June 30, 2011, 07:51 PM

PS, I only threaten people I like with annihilation. Hmm, sounds like something that should be looked at when I say it like that.

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