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 Topic: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism

 (Read 2669 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     OP - June 27, 2011, 08:18 AM

    The Dutch are comning to their senses

    Quote
    The Dutch government says it will abandon the long-standing model of multiculturalism that has encouraged Muslim immigrants to create a parallel society within the Netherlands.

    A new integration bill (covering letter and 15-page action plan), which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16, reads: "The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people. In the new integration system, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society."

    The letter continues: "A more obligatory integration is justified because the government also demands that from its own citizens. It is necessary because otherwise the society gradually grows apart and eventually no one feels at home anymore in the Netherlands. The integration will not be tailored to different groups."

    The new integration policy will place more demands on immigrants. For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language, and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants who ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law.

    The government will also stop offering special subsidies for Muslim immigrants because, according to Donner, "it is not the government's job to integrate immigrants." The government will introduce new legislation that outlaws forced marriages and will also impose tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress. More specifically, the government will impose a ban on face-covering Islamic burqas as of January 1, 2013.

    If necessary, the government will introduce extra measures to allow the removal of residence permits from immigrants who fail their integration course


    More here : http://www.hudson-ny.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism


    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #1 - June 27, 2011, 08:49 AM

    Great news. Smiley I have always felt that the responsibility lies solely on the new migrant to adapt to the values of the country they voluntarily move to.

    My aunt migrated to Canada after a holiday in Vancouver. It benefited her to speak both French and English (two official languages of Canada), she was required to have memorised the national anthem and she had to revise the answers for 180 questions relating to Canada, only 90 questions were used but it was not disclosed which 90 questions so she had to revise all of them. That is, at least, the process my grandma said she had to undergo.

    And I think that's great. If you volunteer to move to a country, it's your obligation. Everyone wants their rights, and that's fine, but there are also responsibilities that come with rights.

    In looking at so many discussions on this sort of thing, I am amazed at how perhaps 80% of people confuse culture with race.

    John Howard articulates how confused we are about what multiculturalism means, at 8:40

    Llink to John Howard's opinion on multiculturalism.

    What I think should be celebrated is a multi-racial society. Smiley
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #2 - June 27, 2011, 12:20 PM

    @Paloma: Good news overall, for better integration.  Smiley I do sympathize that learning a new language can be tough, very tough, but most people can adapt given 2-3 years I think.

    @Unechance: Well said by John Howard I think.  Afro I was reading up on Theodore Roosevelt and noticed this comment by him: "In an 1894 article on immigration, Roosevelt said, "We must Americanize in every way, in speech, in political ideas and principles, and in their way of looking at relations between church and state. We welcome the German and the Irishman who becomes an American. We have no use for the German or Irishman who remains such... He must revere only our flag, not only must it come first, but no other flag should even come second."
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #3 - June 27, 2011, 03:14 PM

    I don't think people should be celebrating this.

    I mean, look, is it necessary? Yeah. Is it in the best interests of Dutch society and the Dutch people? In the short to intermediate term, most likely.

    But you'll have to forgive me for refraining from cheering the reinforcement of nationalism and the defeat of "multiculturalism", as it's an unfortunate reaction to Islamic conservatism and extremism. I mean, people, please ask yourselves this question-- would you be opposed to "multiculturalism" if it didn't allow for the expansion of backwards, religiously conservative and reactionary religious ideas? I certainly wouldn't, and, in fact, I think the basic idea of multiculturalism is good-- the problem is that Islam simply isn't compatible with it.

    I don't find it a happy circumstance at all that now the Netherlands is being forced to become a more closed society and reassert nationalist ideas. It's fucking depressing that this has become necessary, and it's not at all an indication to me that multiculturalism is per se bad, or that nationalism is good-- it's just one more indication as to how badly Muslim society is in need of change.

    My aunt migrated to Canada after a holiday in Vancouver. It benefited her to speak both French and English (two official languages of Canada), she was required to have memorised the national anthem and she had to revise the answers for 180 questions relating to Canada, only 90 questions were used but it was not disclosed which 90 questions so she had to revise all of them. That is, at least, the process my grandma said she had to undergo.


    Your white, middle-class English-speaking aunt? Oh yeah, I bet she had it rough. They'll probably make a movie about her immigrant experience someday. She probably had to scrub floors for less than minimum wage, right?  Roll Eyes

    Quote
    Everyone wants their rights, and that's fine, but there are also responsibilities that come with rights.


    Bzzt! Wrong. You are confusing rights with privileges. Rights we are born with and do not entail any special obligations beyond simply not infringing on the rights of others.

    Quote
    John Howard articulates how confused we are about what multiculturalism means, at 8:40

    Llink to John Howard's opinion on multiculturalism


    John Howard is a fuckin douche.

    I was reading up on Theodore Roosevelt and noticed this comment by him: "In an 1894 article on immigration, Roosevelt said, "We must Americanize in every way, in speech, in political ideas and principles, and in their way of looking at relations between church and state. We welcome the German and the Irishman who becomes an American. We have no use for the German or Irishman who remains such... He must revere only our flag, not only must it come first, but no other flag should even come second."


    Yeah, except even third and fourth generation Immigrants here who primarily identify as Americans still do fly the flags of their forefathers, and take pride in their national heritage. Try coming to the US and finding an Irish-American, no matter how long his or her family has been in this country, who doesn't have an Irish flag on their car, flying from a flagpole outside their house, or hanging up inside their apartment, or on a T-shirt. Same goes for Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, and Puerto Ricans. The only reason you don't see it among Americans of German ancestry (as much) is that WWI and WWII forced them into suppressing their national heritage, and, even then, you still have Oktoberfest celebrations here.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #4 - June 27, 2011, 03:28 PM

    Quote
    I mean, look, is it necessary? Yeah. Is it in the best interests of Dutch society and the Dutch people? In the short to intermediate term, most likely.

    But you'll have to forgive me for refraining from cheering the reinforcement of nationalism and the defeat of "multiculturalism", as it's an unfortunate reaction to Islamic conservatism and extremism. I mean, people, please ask yourselves this question-- would you be opposed to "multiculturalism" if it didn't allow for the expansion of backwards, religiously conservative and reactionary religious ideas? I certainly wouldn't, and, in fact, I think the basic idea of multiculturalism is good-- the problem is that Islam simply isn't compatible with it.


    You have a point there. The Netherlands have, in fact, always been a kind of multicultural society (although everybody was en is expected to speak Dutch). We had all kinds of immigrants here without major problems. Some left, a lot of them stayed. Even my own family was once a fugitive from Flanders in Belgium. But things changed from about 1980 on and, I must admit, the problem was caused by massive immigration by people from Muslim countries. Now about half of the population in Dutch cities consists of, mostly very conservative and backward, muslims who don't even bother to learn Dutch (I have met several women who did not speak more than two words after 35 years here!).

    Quote
    I don't find it a happy circumstance at all that now the Netherlands is being forced to become a more closed society and reassert nationalist ideas. It's fucking depressing that this has become necessary, and it's not at all an indication to me that multiculturalism is per se bad, or that nationalism is good-- it's just one more indication as to how badly Muslim society is in need of change.


    Right, the Dutch had no other choice....


    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #5 - June 27, 2011, 04:18 PM

    Racoon Rapist:

    Even though i agree with you on some of your points. Multiculturalism itself undermines cultural diversity. I recommend you to look into Kenan Maliks critique of Multiculturalism - is not right-wing "paranoid" critique - its reasonable and in touch with reality.

    Quote
    But while multiculturalism constrains the kinds of clashes of opinion that could prove politically fruitful, it also unleashes the kinds of conflicts that are socially damaging. It transforms political debates into cultural collisions and, by imprisoning individuals within their cultures and identities, makes such collisions both inevitable and insoluble. That is why, if we want to preserve diversity as lived experience, we need also to challenge multiculturalism as a political process.


    Read more:
    http://www.kenanmalik.com/papers/engelsberg_mc.html

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #6 - June 27, 2011, 04:21 PM

    What's up with the European leaders as of late? First Merkel, then Cameron, and now those Dutch fools, who's next? France? Spain?

    BTW, awful convenient that this comes when Geert Wilders is in the news.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #7 - June 27, 2011, 04:27 PM

    Multiculturalism is ok when based on individuals asserting their cultural identity as a choice, but governments, to keep things simple, abrogated to groups claiming representation for those cultural groups placing people into boxes with these "community leaders" as the key holders.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #8 - June 27, 2011, 04:33 PM

    Racoon Rapist:

    Even though i agree with you on some of your points. Multiculturalism itself undermines cultural diversity. I recommend you to look into Kenan Maliks critique of Multiculturalism - is not right-wing "paranoid" critique - its reasonable and in touch with reality.

    Read more:
    http://www.kenanmalik.com/papers/engelsberg_mc.html


    Will do.

    Multiculturalism is ok when based on individuals asserting their cultural identity as a choice, but governments, to keep things simple, abrogated to groups claiming representation for those cultural groups placing people into boxes with these "community leaders" as the key holders.


    Indeed. Multiculturalism degenerating into identity politics.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #9 - June 27, 2011, 04:35 PM

    What's up with the European leaders as of late? First Merkel, then Cameron, and now those Dutch fools, who's next? France? Spain?


    As a side note: Spain is considering banning the burka. France and Belgium already have done so.
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #10 - June 27, 2011, 04:37 PM

    What's up with the European leaders as of late? First Merkel, then Cameron, and now those Dutch fools, who's next? France? Spain?

    BTW, awful convenient that this comes when Geert Wilders is in the news.


    The Dutch "fools" actually started the debate in 2001, by Mr. Pim Fortuyn, who was murdered in 2002 by an animal terrorist  finmad

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #11 - June 27, 2011, 04:42 PM

    As a side note: Spain is considering banning the burka. France and Belgium already have done so.



    France recently banned clothing with (nearly) complete covering of the face, including those male coverings worn by all kinds of extremists. Belgium banned head scarfs from some secondary schools, because the girls not wearing scarfs were intimidated and threatened...

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #12 - June 27, 2011, 04:51 PM

    The Dutch "fools" actually started the debate in 2001, by Mr. Pim Fortuyn, who was murdered in 2002 by an animal terrorist  finmad


    Not condoning his murder (political assassinations of this sort are wrong on many levels), but Fortuyn was a demagogue, and his assassin hardly an "animal"

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #13 - June 27, 2011, 04:53 PM

    Quote
    But you'll have to forgive me for refraining from cheering the reinforcement of nationalism and the defeat of "multiculturalism", as it's an unfortunate reaction to Islamic conservatism and extremism. I mean, people, please ask yourselves this question-- would you be opposed to "multiculturalism" if it didn't allow for the expansion of backwards, religiously conservative and reactionary religious ideas? I certainly wouldn't, and, in fact, I think the basic idea of multiculturalism is good-- the problem is that Islam simply isn't compatible with it.

    I don't find it a happy circumstance at all that now the Netherlands is being forced to become a more closed society and reassert nationalist ideas. It's fucking depressing that this has become necessary, and it's not at all an indication to me that multiculturalism is per se bad, or that nationalism is good-- it's just one more indication as to how badly Muslim society is in need of change.


    Brilliant analysis! clap
    These medieval jokers have queered the pitch for everyone.
    Holland is a very interesting case because it has had other non European immigrant communities and as far as I know they have not had the kind of trouble they are having with the Muslims.
     



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #14 - June 27, 2011, 04:54 PM

    Sorry, I meant to write "animal rights terrorist" ...

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #15 - June 27, 2011, 04:55 PM

     Cheesy

    Okay, yeah, funny what a difference one word can make.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #16 - June 27, 2011, 04:56 PM


    Indeed. Multiculturalism degenerating into identity politics.


    That's the main reason for all this shitty mess.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #17 - June 27, 2011, 05:06 PM

    Racoon Rapist:

    Even though i agree with you on some of your points. Multiculturalism itself undermines cultural diversity. I recommend you to look into Kenan Maliks critique of Multiculturalism - is not right-wing "paranoid" critique - its reasonable and in touch with reality.

    Read more:
    http://www.kenanmalik.com/papers/engelsberg_mc.html


    Okay, well I agree with many of his points and the thrust of his analysis and my definition of "multiculturalism" as a good thing definitely fits in with what he says at the beginning:

    Quote
    When most people say that multiculturalism is a good thing, what they mean is the experience of living in a society that is less insular, less homogeneous, more vibrant and cosmopolitan than before.


    But not the "multiculturalism as a set of prescriptive policies", which, as he describes it, is something I'm more inclined to refer to as "identity politics" rather than "multiculturalism"

    However, I take particular issue with one example he raises-- the Aborigines in Australia. This is a qualitatively different situation than immigrant groups or domestic religious and (sub)cultural groups-- the Aborigines in Australia may be entitled to be judged according to their own laws because their land was overrun with colonists, and new laws, institutions, culture and religion forcibly imposed on them. That is not to say that Aboriginal peoples should not adhere to universal principles of justice and human rights, but that when there is a conflict between that and an external illegitimate authority forcibly imposing these principles upon them, well, I probably won't go so far as to say the latter definitively trumps the former, but I can hardly blame people who do take that approach.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #18 - June 27, 2011, 07:31 PM

    -_-



    OMFG!

    IM PISSED OFF - I WROTE A LOT!!!!!!!!!!! and it's all goneeeeeee

     finmad

    -_- what a waste of time now. >.<

    grrrr

    goddam it.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism
     Reply #19 - June 28, 2011, 01:59 AM

    Your white, middle-class English-speaking aunt? Oh yeah, I bet she had it rough. They'll probably make a movie about her immigrant experience someday. She probably had to scrub floors for less than minimum wage, right?  Roll Eyes


    You are aware, of course, that 30% of Vancouverites are of Chinese origin, and  they are a well established and incredibly integrated part of Canadian society in Vancouver? The Chinese integrate extremely well, and my aunt is half-Chinese, half-English herself.

    Quote
    In 2001, 31% of Chinese in Canada, both foreign-born and Canadian-born, had a university education, compared with the national average of 18%.

    The employment rate for Canadian-born Chinese men of prime working-age was 86%, the same as the national average. The employment rate for Canadian-born Chinese women of prime working-age was 83%, which was higher than the national average of 76%.


    I don't see how the Canadian-Chinese community has it "rough", on the contrary they seem to be by-and-large a success story. They're not white, they just understand the work involved in becoming assimilated into Canadian society, and that is great. I do understand that a Chinese immigrant will have a hard time learning the language, but it's apart of integrating into society.

    And for the record, I don't like Howard either. Hence why I quoted him, because it is rare of me to find something I can agree with, but I think he has it right on this one.
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