Well I can only speak personally, from having a hair straightener, blow dryer, moisturizing lotions, lip balms ... men do it to look good, and have confidence, style and character. Yes - for us men too, we feel good to wear and dress good. And hence why the metrosexual term has come about. Hence why pink shirts are so common at the work place. I literally keep count of the number of men with pink shirts and some days (e.g. a Friday) it can be about 25% of them, including myself. Oxford pink is very nice. I suppose my point is when there are cultural shifts (including looks) in Western society, it can happen. Beckham and Brad Pitt have most definitely raised the bar for metrosexualism.
Men also try to "beautify" themselves via building muscles. If I have evolved to feel better when in good shape, and seem to be able to attract women in the processes, what is wrong with that? If there isn't they I'd apply the same moderation to girls/women who like to show some beauty. Btw, I know many guys who at Brad Pitt's peak would say, "Man I wish I had muscles like him". Women like some muscle I think - and I really do think there is an obvious evolutionary past to that one (though yes I agree there is social bias in the form of mass media).
I would also say that yes, you are buying into it, since you still keep saying the majority of women.
You know for the most part I really don't know what I am disagreeing with your or allat with. The only thing I feel is evolutionary is the natural instincts of desirability. I've research on the "Sex at Dawn" book and I find nothing that suggests to the contrary that women are attracted to muscle or that men are attracted to beauty which implies fertility. I understand the social shift that you decribe and I agree it can be a problem though (more on that below).
You know, I was not born with an urge to wear make up. Infact even when I began to feel attracted to boys, I still did NOT wear make up. I did not infact start wearing any make up untill 17 (3yrs after I started liking boys) and this was purely because my friends did it. I conformed to social expectations of a woman since I did not know how to do make up.
But do you think this translated to make up everyday? fuck no, I wore lipstick once in a blue moon when they nagged me. I found it annoying since make up needs reapplication.
I never plucked my eyebrows til I was 21, do you know how late that is in a 'woman's world' apparantly that is? but why would I feel the urge to do that? I plucked them that time again thanks to friends nagging me, until I conformed.
Foundation never arrived in my life until I was 32, again what a shocker, I am told this is like a woman's war paint, and women start young.
And yet I was healthily attracted to men, I just wasn't raised to beautify myself in this way.
I had no mum to imitate, to learn from, and had to wait until I made friends who then began to train me in what a woman needs/wants, or should do.
Sure, okay.
My daughter watches me getting ready and learns from me. She is not fertile, or aiming to attract a mate, since she is only 7, but she likes nail varnish because I wear it, she likes make up because I wear it, she wants pretty things because I wear them and she wants to be like me.
This is where I think balance comes into play. Nail varnish at 7 ... I can't see what is too bad about that. Yes indeed culture now comes into play. But looking at it consequentially - if she likes to varnish her nails for style, then good. As you say she's obviously not fertile yet. Whether this is a slippery slope towards being pressured ... I'm not so sure.
My boys used to like nail varnish, slowly society has made him not like it anymore. He was taught out there that nail varnish is not appropriate for a boy.
Okay I see your point here.
My boy used to have shoulder length Indie rock super cool hair, but he was continually bullied in the playground and called a girl by his peers and insisted he get short back and sides since you have to be ready to face the social retards before you can fight as a non conformist.
Well I think in the West here as much as there is peer pressure, there is the freedom for individuality. Bullying is rife unfortunately and is a part of growing up. I do think if he wants to wear one - go for it.
So, even in watching my own children I see how this imitation is played out, how peer pressure and social expectations of gender begin changing our children until they finally conform.
Okay.
So that people could then go on and say with assurity, women like make up and beautfying themselves, not men.
Well I didn't say men don't and as written above I agree with the whole changing attitudes towards men wearing pink shirts, being metrosexual and even ending their texts or emails with kisses (men to other men that is).
I wouldn't put it so crudely though that "women like make up and beautifying themselves". What I mean to say is - if women feel good about looking good more than men - then it explains why women might like to show a bit of flesh, be ore selective with their clothes, and in general mostly take looks more importantly than most men.
Also, please let us never forget the 'scientific' support that can be found for fans of the eugenics arguments, or all the pre existing so called scientific knowlegde that assured the western world that black people were stupider, and infact not even human.
Yes of course.
That turned out to be fake, much as this so called sientific support for women behaving a set way due to XX and men due to XY, will turn out to be bullshit too.
Possibly. I think this topic is tricky in nature though because there are underlying physical differences. E.g. men have more testosterone. This is then mixed in with social pressures.
Then your argument is muted no? since if lesbian women have the highest satisfaction with their body and feel no urge to join the race for perfection, and yet are still women, it is only the social enforcement of how mate selection must occur (as per allat's post) that insists heterosexual woman and homosexual men must do X and Y in order to find an XY of their own.
Oh I see. Good point indeed.
Ummm .... well ... very good point. Not to put a spanner in the works here but just to look up yahoo answers for the question "What do lesbians find attractive in other women?"
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080105143738AAPVxqSMy sister (who is a lesbian and lives with her partner) says that she likes feminine curves. Male bodies are more muscular and angular. She does not find women who are too slender attractive.
slender body, flat stomach, soft skin, soft lips, not too tall, assertive, confident, outgoing, warm hands, pretty eyes, nice hair, medium sized breasts, knows how to handle a woman, can dance sexy, likes PDA (with me)
The softness, the tenderness, the girlishness, I don't know
.... so I suppose although that isn't a great sample - it does kind of suggest that there are lesbians are attracted to womanly qualities such as (e.g. the curves). Okay - bigger sample set needed.
I wish I knew why you kept asking me and allat if we are in fact suggesting this.
Why would I think it is wrong?
Because my whole point is about natural urges that we have evolved to have whether this is chemistry or a guy wanting to catch a girl's attention or a girl wanting to catch the attention of a guy (and perhaps beautifying themselves in the process). All due respect, you've written above that certain women on this forum who are pretty and then get attention of guys as if they should be guilty for doing this. While I agree that looks alone in a person isn't everything - I don't see what is so back about people wanting to come across desirable (in moderation) if it helps boost their confidence for example. I'm not having a pop at you here - just explaining why I asked those questions.
I think the excess to which we are told that it must happen, is what is wrong.
I agree. And this is what I said from the start - everything in moderation, including beautification (for guys or gals).
Why did Primark launch 7yr old bras? do you think it is because Primark knew 7yr olds are already seeking to look boobilicious and therefore net a man already? or because they knew that little girls want to dress like mummy?
I have found my daughter wearing one of my bras before, it was NOT to get a man, but because mummy is a woman, mummy is her role model and mummy wears a bra.
Okay - so moderation is needed. Mummy (as I'm sure you've done) has explained why it isn't appropriate for such young girls to be wearing one.
Do you not think women in Islamic countries are socially conditioned to accept their status quo?
At the crux of our disagreement I think is here. Women in Islamic countries I think have more than social conditions, they are also under mind indoctrinated religious pressure and are economically and politically conditioned too.
Is social conditioning that moulds a proper woman only apparant in muslim countries?
While I agree there is social conditioning, there are several reasons why I think to compare the social pressures of Western women to that of the pressures of Muslim women in Islamic countries is relativism.
The full piece (which allat referenced) by Martha Nussbaum has holes in it. Not to get too political but she is on the left and I don't think she understands how backwards cultures are getting in through a conduit of liberalism, the burka being one of them in my opinion. But anyway, points to put across why women in the west have real individual choices if they want to beautify or not beautify themselves:
- They are becoming (and in some countries like the US, already are) more women in the work force than men. This gives them economic power and confidence. So if they really don't want to beautify themselves, if it is just a social pressure on them, then they don't have to.
- There is much more cultural autonomy in the West. Whether it is food, fashion or music, tastes; memplexes can born, evolve or die out a lot quicker thanks to the foundations of the media/internet and democratic living. As such, the rise of pink shirts and metrosexuality in recent years is evidence. While I've seen certain trends in less-feminism such as women wearing trousers instead of skirts, I've not seen anything as compelling as those pink or pastel colour shirts men have started wearing the last 10 years in the UK (I think).
- The religions in the West are less and less involved in the influence of a woman's choices in life. As a result I don't see women in the West as indoctrinated by religion to be a certain way.
- The West strives of equality before the law, in business and politics. Since more women can have these opportunities, they have a much better grounding for voicing their opinions.
All that said - yes - there is still societal pressure on women. But to compare it to the pressures of Muslim women I think is being highly disingenuous to the West as if women have no option or hope or choice. They do - all you women do - far more than any Muslim country. To say that patriarchy is as bad in Islamic countries as it is here in the West I think is also disingenuous.
I know this woman at work. She works and her husband is looking for work for over a year. While she doesn't wear inch thick make up, she definitely wears dresses and outfits that accentuates her curves and beauty. She exercises regularly. She walks and talks very confidently. My point being, if such moderate amounts of beauty is in display (and if it helps her to be confident because she naturally feels good about herself - and as I think she evolved to feel good about showing some beauty) what is so bad? There is another bloke at work, every talks about how defined his muscles are. If it gives him confidence (and he evolved to feel that confidence) - what is so bad? If there is nothing bad then I would say you agree with that beauty, in moderation, is not a bad thing. I guess I can't convince you both that these are natural urges more than societal ones - but heyho - guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Btw - thank you for your time
Berbs and
allat - I appreciate a nice discussion and get some interesting ideas.
Topic: Hijab, self esteem and the culture of beauty